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Artismo
461
Nov 26, 2018
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I listened to these on a Marantz HD-DAC1 DSD DAC with low and mid gain, Deezer lossless, and my impressions were that the vocals were lacking body, the vocals were more in-head, and the bass was not impactful. For being an open back, I didn’t get much sense of width or space except in the mid to upper treble region. Could it be the amp, or are my ears capturing the character of the headphone correctly? Because I so want to buy these. I can forgive the neutral-ish sound and a bit of shrill treble from the peak around 8K-10k (sounds like). I really love love the sound of my HE4XX and the magic of the HD58X has worn off. I find myself shopping these days for the HD600, HD650, and the like. I almost pulled the trigger on a 660S, but that price brand new. I live in Japan and with customs fees, plus parcel forwarding costs, I might as well just buy the Sennheisers in-store.
Nov 26, 2018
wontonotnow
307
Nov 26, 2018
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ArtismoAs a student of audio recording and music production, it's hard to hear "vocals were lacking body" and not worry immediately what source material (song) was used and if any A/B testing was done. Far beyond the amp/headphone combo questions and variables such as what mood you were in or what barometric pressure you inner ears were under at the time, it's so complex and subjective as to be almost worse than not trying the headphones on at all and looking a frequency response graph. https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/acoustic-research-ar-h1-open-planar-magnetic-headphones-measurements I know that doesn't make up for how the headphones feel (comfort, size, etc) but I've always been worried trying headphones for the first time, that my first impression will be colored too much by variables that I don't control, because I can't run the headphones through their paces on a show room floor. Borrowing one or getting it shipped to you to buy or return after a week sounds ideal. You mention HD650's which I have the little massdrop sister version of (6xx, same driver as 650?). It's a great everyday headphone, but drops a lot of high frequencies. I have some other headphones specifically to hear the higher frequencies, because if making music or listening to music where the high frequencies are important, you'll be missing out due to the HD650's "veiled" sound.
Nov 26, 2018
Artismo
461
Nov 26, 2018
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wontonotnowThat’s the other issue I have too. Like, on the floor in an electronics store there is other music playing, environmental sounds, and the like. To test vocals, I listened to: Etta James “At Last” Jasmine Thompson “As the Sun Goes Down” Sia, Adele Thomas Bergersen “Remember Me” For Bass: DubFX “Flow” Brandy “Sittin Up in My Room” Tupac “California Love” I’ll try a different amp today and a hybrid tube amp, the Triode, to see if my impressions change. Because of the price, I think I’ll still pull the trigger. The amp ive been using at the store has been there for months. The headphones probably haven’t been burnt in.
Nov 26, 2018
wontonotnow
307
Nov 26, 2018
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ArtismoYeah, that price is nice so I'm interested in your second impression if you get a chance to update. I just bought plane/car-rental/hotel so I'm not feeling in a buying mood for awhile. Shouldn't have opened the massdrop email! edit: P.S. my favorite to test stage presence is jazz or downtempo with stand up bass or nice jazz drum kit. If the recording is binaural you can feel where the musicians were in the room, it's great.
Nov 26, 2018
Artismo
461
Nov 26, 2018
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wontonotnowIt’s almost 8am on a Tuesday, I’ll probably listen in about 6 hours when I take my lunch break. I’ll see if I can find some binaural tracks and probably give my second impression by the evening. Im not trying to shit on these cans, they are good and a bit flat to my ears. Then again, my Oppo PM-3 sound a bit flat too, but for some reason I like the Oppo sound. The AR-H1 build quality and in-hand feel is phenomenal. They do feel like premium cans. I want to like their sound. In AR and Massdrop’s favor, and after first impressions, I do believe the Cyber Monday Price ($249) is a good value.
Nov 26, 2018
wontonotnow
307
Nov 27, 2018
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ArtismoIn the end it's a monetary decision, weighed against the personal value you give to the headphones. I'd say if your second experience doesn't wipe away all hesitations, pass. Some of the headphone fun is the shopping part, if you get a pair that you already feel is sub-par in some way, best to save it for something a bit pricier (because we all know which direction the ladder leads :)). Sidenote: Depending on your goal, sometimes it's best to tune your ears to a headphone's signature instead of the other way around (shopping around headphones until one fits your taste). Burning your ears in. This takes the aesthetics and comfort out of the equation, but for me as a student of recording and producing sound, I will lean toward more flat response headphones. As a music enthusiast, I want more bass than neutral, unless I'm ok with increasing the volume to naturally boost the bass, but also damage my hearing long-term. You can also get a professional-grade Equalizer and tune it as much or little as you want. Many audiophiles shudder at the idea of using EQ, but let's face it, some music and especially streaming audio sounds better if you have control of the EQ to tame any crazy frequencies of the source material or awkward frequencies of your headphones. At the very least, EQ allows you to experiment with your headphones. I'm not an EQ evangelist I swear, just sprinkle the idea around.
Nov 27, 2018
Artismo
461
Nov 27, 2018
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wontonotnowAlright, I’m back after an hour of ABCing. I auditioned the Oppo PM-1, Beyerdynamic DT1990, and AR-H1. I listened to Pearl Jam, Binaural and a generic 3D recorded ocean waves/relax track. I also listened to the prior tracks in the earlier posts. Problem 1: the store would not let me try the Triode Tube Amp or other amps nearby due to the theft/security device being too short. I was literally on a short leash. So Marantz again. Problem 2: not an official listening room. The sound was speckled with ambient noise. Problem 3: it will come to me, I’m writing this so I remember. Here is the quick and dirty. The AR-H1 is flat and neutral. You’re right, I’d prefer that for mixing. The mid and upper treble sounded cleaner than the DT1990, the DT1990 has a bit of grain to it. The Oppo PM-1 had a clean treble too. Bass impact was not missing from any of the headphones (something about that AR though), but the DT1990 felt fuller to me, with the planars feeling punchier (the Oppo edging out the AR). The AR-H1 has this great left to right panning ability, but the sound passed through my head (left to inside head to right and vice versa), where as the Oppo and Beyerdynamic had the sound pass left to right in front of my head. They just felt more spacious. Imaging wasn’t bad on the AR-H1, but I could pick out front to back better on the other cans. Furthermore, female vocals sounded clean on the AR (they had more ssssss to them than the DT and PM), but on the Oppo, they seemed to pull my heart strings more. I felt that the DT1990 enveloped me in sound more. All headphones, save for the AR, gave me the impression of vocals with more body, just that little touch. The drivers of the AR do touch my ears, literally. I feel that the pads are too thin and that contributed to the in-head sound of vocals. Here’s why I say that: when I pull the headphones .5-1cm from my head, the soundstage widened, the vocals did resonate inside my head. It sounded like a better headphone, maybe aftermarket pads can help in this department. Top to bottom soundstage improved too when I centered the driver heightwise on my ears, rather than the bottom touching the bottom of my ear or letting it sit to low with the top of the cup touching the top of my ear. Dead-center is where it’s at. I think I still prefer my HE-4XX and I’m close to selling my HD58X. I’m in a bidding war for a used HD650. You’re right, they sound a bit laid back, but such good vocals. I could totally lounge with that headphone for hours. The DT1990 gave me no time to relax, the Oppo excited me, and the AR left me feeling “meh.” I’ve also been eyeing a used Audeze EL-8 Open wood, HE560 V3, and Sundara for around the same price used. I gotta make it out to another store to audition them, they’re not available in the national brick-and-mortar chains. In fact, I’m surprised I even found the AR here.
Nov 27, 2018
wontonotnow
307
Nov 27, 2018
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ArtismoThat's a sturdy review, I appreciate it! You really gave them a chance but they're lacking in some checkboxes. I'll be looking at more planars but not ready to go with the HE-4XX just yet. The last pair of hifimans I got (the first massdrop ones a year or two back, cheap $100 pair) weren't my cup of tea. The HE-4XX seems to have good reviews. Any thoughts on the KOSS electrostatic ones? I'm on the fence about getting some closed beyers (low impedence for my needs, I shouldn't be pumping them through an amp while mixing I don't think, it would color the sound and I'd be mixing to the headphones/amp instead of the music) or a cheapish planar next. The only closed pair I currently use regularly are AKG K553 with slanted pads and they are super bright (treble can be painful) Here's where the fun use of multiple headphones comes in with sound production: I'm pretty sure what turned a normally bright-neutral headphone into a super bright one is the angle of the pads. It's not something I would recommend for anyone who just wants to listen to music, but because my main headphones (the HD6xx/650 drivers) are the opposite (veiled highs), the AKG's modded to extreme bright allows me to hear what's going on up in the headache range and catch anything I missed with the other headphones. So now I'm looking at another closed pair of headphones with deep lows to make balancing sub-bass and bass easier (probably beyerdynamic), and Planars or electrostatics maybe for the tight response to hear those little crackles you miss on forgiving headphones like the HD650s. Hearing music you yourself are mixing or recording from multiple headphones gives you lots of reference points on any issues with your songs, similar to trying a mix in your car and on a crappy stereo system, as long as nothing absolutely horrible pops out your mix is clean. It's also just an excuse for me to wallow in the lower-mid-range headphones and shop around of course!
Nov 27, 2018
Keth
760
Nov 27, 2018
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ArtismoI find the HD-DAC1 pretty underwhelming as an amp, the sound stage is lacking, and it's sub bass and lower mid range is lacking as well, when compared to things like the THX 789, or Lake People G109-S. It's just not transparent enough to really do objective headphone reviews on.
Nov 27, 2018
Artismo
461
Nov 27, 2018
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KethRound 3 then. They have a Teac UD-505 I could probably try. I’ll give it another go
Nov 27, 2018
Keth
760
Nov 27, 2018
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ArtismoJust my opinion, for some reason I found the Marantz unit to color the audio a lot more than most solid state units. The UD-505 is supposed to be amazing, though I really really wish it had the VU meters from the 501! VU metes/levels are so damn hard to find on headphone equipment.
Nov 27, 2018
Artismo
461
Nov 28, 2018
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KethI gave it a last honest go and here are my lasting impressions. I tried these vs the Audioquest Nighthawks and Nightowls. I also tried the Fostex TH-900. I know, closed vs open, different MSRPs, different purposes. I also sampled all headphones on the TEAC and Triod tube. The tubes did bring out warmth, make bass more impactful, and expanded the soundstage, it improved all headphones soundstage but overemphasized bass on the already dark and bass heavy headphones like the AQs and Fostex. The headphones sounded cleaner and more precise on the TEAC due to SS amping, that’s a given. The AR is still clean, neutral, and fast. The tubes sweetened it up a bit, but I would still keep these for mixing and music production. On the TEAC it still kept that flat feeling. Nothing really stood out to me. The AQ’s and Fostex on a tube are sublime for enjoyment, and even still enjoyable on SS amps. I wont pull the trigger yet. I found some EL-8 woods for comparable prices used and will check those out.
Nov 28, 2018
Mbot
191
Dec 26, 2018
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ArtismoThe HD58X is better than the 660S
(Edited)
Dec 26, 2018
Artismo
461
Dec 26, 2018
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MbotYou know, I thought and felt that way for a while. Their tonalities are similar and the price of the HD58X makes it a bargain performer. Even after burn-in, the treble was too grainy and I could here it in songs that I knew should have been cleaner. Same with instruments and plug-ins that I knew exhibited no grain or distortion, yet, there it was. The HD660S didn’t have that graininess to it. I considered modding it, but ended up selling it and pulled the trigger on a Focal Elex. Hunting for an HD650 now or 6XX. I do miss my HD58X.
Dec 26, 2018
Mbot
191
Dec 26, 2018
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ArtismoI don't hear graininess. Must be your DAC The HD650 is terrible imo
Dec 26, 2018
Artismo
461
Dec 26, 2018
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MbotThat’s interesting because I used it on my Topping D30, Scarlett 2i2, and in-store with a Teac UD-505, and Cayin A1-H1, all grain. Also, you never qualified why the HD58X is better or the HD650 is worse. I mean, that’s like saying, “I think people who are bad are bad, therefore they are bad.” I appreciate your 2 cents, but other readers as well might need more than a few pennies~
(Edited)
Dec 26, 2018
Mbot
191
Dec 26, 2018
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The graininess is coming from the cheap-&-nasty cable that Sennheiser paired with the HD58X. Get a silver-lined copper cable and you'll be laughing (with joy). No more grain, plus more transparency & detail, and accurate clean airy treble. In my synopsis it appears that Sennheiser couldn't accept that the HD58X was performing better than their HD600 & HD650 & HD660S, so they deliberately put a shitty cable with it. It's not the same quality as the standard one that comes with the HD600 (even though they look similar), obviously Sennheiser killed two birds with one stone... firstly they saved money by using a low-grade cable, and secondly they found a way to give the impression that the HD58X is lower in rank. With the silver-lined copper cable the HD58X imo sounds better than the HD600/650/660S/800S
(Edited)
Dec 26, 2018
Artismo
461
Dec 26, 2018
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MbotIf what you’re saying is true, had I known that, I would’ve plunked more down on the cable just to get the treble a little cleaner. That was my only major, gripe, though it wasn’t all. Maybe one day, I’ll give it another go.
Dec 26, 2018
jaydunndiddit
3262
Dec 26, 2018
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ArtismoTruthfully, take that money you'd spend on a cable on a nice bottle of wine or bourbon. That'd give you a better perception of SQ changes than any cable. Seriously though, pads will make more of a difference than a cable. The stock cable is just fine and is made of a high quality OFC. There is a reason folks re-terminate the stock cable for balanced XLR. The issue most run into with cable swaps is measuring and matching the cable resistance to the headphone and the amp when not done properly leads to mismatches. Hence why some people can discern a notable difference and others not so much. I mean, how many people actually know the resistance of every cable in their system down to interconnects and balance their system accordingly? Very few. Most will spend $300 on a headphone cable and still use cheap $2 poorly-made interconnects between components. Going through all the pads offered by Dekoni changed the sound (for better and worse) to my ears than the plethora of cables I own, custom or otherwise. Dekoni also has measurements of pads on the 600/650 so you can see how each pad affects the FR. Personally, if you're that worried about FR, pads make the most sense followed by tone controls. Or a tube buffer. Or DAC filters or parametric EQ. The sky is the limit to get you where you want by building a good, scalable system. A cable will never net you the changes you're looking for. And I own pure silver super litz cables as well as pure copper and SPC litz cables. Honestly, unless it's a balanced XLR cable, the stock cable will always be fine unless it's just a poorly soldered mess or the connectors are flat out awful. I've seen more broken/failed/poorly soldered connectors than poorly sounding cables.
Dec 26, 2018
Artismo
461
Dec 26, 2018
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jaydunndidditOh yeah, I’ve seen you around commenting quite a bit- You got some great gear! I have to ask a few things: I just got the CTH and it has a bit of a scratchy volume pot, any tips on troubleshooting it? Also, are you using the stock Electro Harmonix, or have you tube rolled already? I was thinking about the Electro Harmonix Gold or Genalex Gold Lion. What are your thoughts?
(Edited)
Dec 26, 2018
wontonotnow
307
Dec 26, 2018
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jaydunndidditBuying top-shelf cables gives you that zing in the somatosensory cortical organization of the brain, around the same region as horse racing and/or sex (not simultaneously, that hasn't been fully researched). Of course I'm just ranting nonsense, but I believe I'm still more correct than ~94% of the gear heads when it comes to cables and their cost/benefit slaughter industry. (wink!)
Dec 26, 2018
jaydunndiddit
3262
Dec 27, 2018
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ArtismoFor the scratchy pot, something like Deoxit would work and some lube to help protect the contacts from future oxidation. It's different to get to it for each device but I believe there is a teardown of the CTH so you can see how the knob comes off. Otherwise, I haven't used any other tube in the CTH. Honestly the stock tube is just fine for this device. It's not really a "proper" tube amp so it's not imparting much if any tube flavor to us really. This is one of those few times.tube rolling doesn't yield a huge benefit and the stock tube perfectly suffices. If you're wanting something with a tube sound then look at something like the DarkVoice or LittleDot. I've used the iFi Pro iCAN and iTube2 and enjoyed their tube implementations as well, despite them being done a bit differently.
Dec 27, 2018
Artismo
461
Dec 27, 2018
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jaydunndidditThanks a lot! I’ll give it a go. I’ve read others with similar thoughts on the stock tube. The sound isn’t “ultra-tubey”, but I’m happy to save my money on that and start cleaning the pot~
Dec 27, 2018
Mbot
191
Dec 27, 2018
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ArtismoDon't listen to jaydunndiddit, his two cents is worth less than grass. This is not about custom rolling, the issue was about the graininess in the HD58X. Mass drop tuned the FR with the standard pads that come with the HD58X, and that's where we get the great sound. No need for experimenting with some other weird pad which will only alter the sound for the worse. And the resistance of the standard cable was already matched to the HD58X, so then why does the grain disappear and the treble sound more accurate and the bass tighten up and the transparency improve noticeably with the silver-lined copper cable? Because the problem is the standard cable, that's why! It's not even close to high quality OFC, it's low-grade garbage. Trust me, get a silver-lined copper cable and nothing will beat the HD58X. I use a 1.2m silver-lined copper cable.
Dec 27, 2018
jaydunndiddit
3262
Dec 27, 2018
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ArtismoHappy to help., Artismo. Also, don't put any credence into what Mbot has to share. They're quite... opinionated and like to speak for everyone. Just look at their profile and you'll get what I mean. Here's just a taste: "What we fucking need is... a 1.5m cable with a 2.5mm plug! And with it a 4.4mm adapter. We use high-end DAPs - anybody at Massdrop fucking listening?😩 Our DAPs have powerful amps and balanced outputs with a 2.5mm/4.4mm plug, do you fucking capiche? I don't need a high-end desktop system, my DAP blows them all away soundwise & specwise! I can move about in the house with my DAP, or I can walk outside (yes I'm more than happy to walk down the street with an openback Sennheiser headphone). And while I'm here, silver-lined copper cables sound better than copper-only cables☔" What a peach. 🙄🤦🏽 What Mbot is describing is going from a SE cable to a balanced one. It's not the cable itself that is imparting any additional benefits to the sound, these are just the benefits of utilizing a balanced circuit out of their chosen device. I use my 58X/6XX balanced out of the THX 789 + SMSL SU-8 and while the 58X is not a favored headphone in my stable, grainy is not something I would ascribe to their signature when they're properly being powered. The 58X loves TONS of valtage just like its HD6 brethren. IF you give them stupid amounts of power, they will finaly sound like their drivers have some speed to them, everything tightens up, and the "haze/veil" that some perceive is "lifted." But, in reality, the drivers are just getting the voltage they want due to the excessive voltage and impedance swings of the 58X. If you want to read something interesting about cables in this hobby and our own personal biases/perceptions, then this article will shed some light on actual research and the sciences involved: https://www.headphonesty.com/2018/06/do-expensive-cables-really-matter/.
Dec 27, 2018
Artismo
461
Dec 28, 2018
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jaydunndidditMore food for thought and thanks~ I was hoping my O2 amp was enough, but perhaps not. I recently pulled the trigger on a THX AAA 789 and hope that will provide my dynamic and planar drivers with power in spades. I also sold my D30 and jumped on board the SMSL SU-8 DAC train, though I know the 789 doesn’t have truly balanced circuits, I needed the balanced outs for my monitors. I’ll prpbably still use the balanced outs more often for the 789 and see if I can clean up the signal path more. I finally got some Deoxit ordered from Amazon JP, but the holidays and availability make delivery a few days out. I’ve been looking at tear-down posts for the CTH and it doesn’t look too complicated. Gonna give it a whirl soon. If it doesn’t work, I’ll just chalk it up to faulty pots and live with it. It’s not too bad and the original seller could help me with repairs, but it’s out of warranty by a hair. So, I’d say for $170 USD with a Chi-LPS and unused Electro-Harmonix tube, a slightly scratchy pot isn’t too bad. To be sure, I’ll probably pick up a new E-H, balanced and check my cabling too. I haven’t tried touching the volume pot while gloved, I heard some users are having static and grounding issues. That’s next. Thanks again!
Dec 28, 2018
loadexfa
281
Dec 28, 2018
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ArtismoRegarding tubes with the CTH, some make it sound noticeably worse (Genalex), with others it's really hard to tell. I have the Amperex 7308 but can only hear a difference with my HD 800s, otherwise I think it sounds the same as the stock EH tube. I wouldn't recommend spending the money unless you have 800's and REALLY want to get the best possible results despite diminishing returns (small quality improvement for money spent). I also agree the stock cable is fine. Silver can make headphones sound brighter (allegedly), I haven't tested this on my own ears so I'm only going off of what I've read. That doesn't mean better, depends on your taste. I don't hear grain with the 58X and stock cable, I think they're good, especially at that price. Also Sennheisers pair really well with the CTH, the amp was tuned for them.
Dec 28, 2018
Keth
760
Dec 28, 2018
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jaydunndidditYeah, the 58x was unlistenable on my phone or out of my PC, even though it had plenty of volume. Through the THX 789 they sound like a completely different headphone, still not my jam, but much much better.
Dec 28, 2018
Mbot
191
Dec 28, 2018
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loadexfaDon't listen to jaydunndiddit, he knows nothing. I'm not using a balanced cable! I'm using a sliver-lined cable plugged into the HO, not the balanced out. I did the A/Bs here with the stock cable, the grain you speak of is correct. Although some of the grain can be attributed to the HD58X not being driven hard enough, all the grain disappears when using a silver-lined copper cable. A beautiful bouquet of transparency & accurate lush tone in the treble frequencies is present, and the grain is gone.
(Edited)
Dec 28, 2018
Artismo
461
Dec 28, 2018
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MbotI never even considered it, but it simply could have been my specific pair. During my critical listening sessions, I could hear the slightest of distortions in cymbals or high synth stabs. Using the same upstream equipment, I changed headphones to say, the HE4XX or even the Elex, and no grain. It was ever so slight.
Dec 28, 2018
jaydunndiddit
3262
Dec 28, 2018
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ArtismoIt's not you or your pair. That's just part of the sound sig of the 58X. It is a budget headphone after all and I think that gets forgotten just because it sounds pretty good for the dollar. I have the 4XX and Elex as well and can easily confirm exactly the same as you.
Dec 28, 2018
Mbot
191
Dec 30, 2018
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ArtismoThose headphones have silky inaccurate treble, not accurate. The HD58X with a silver-lined copper cable has accurate treble, clean, lush and realistic. Stay with the 58X.
Dec 30, 2018
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