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Alex00322
789
Jun 4, 2017
I got my first set of SA the other day. I expected similar to GMK in terms of feel or quality. Honestly, SA is garbage tier. I don't know why these sets are so expensive. The caps are trash.
Cakirrama
272
Jun 4, 2017
Alex00322Any further explanation?
ASCII
214
Jun 4, 2017
Alex00322(¬_¬)
Alex00322
789
Jun 4, 2017
CakirramaJust feel cheap and look cheap in comparison to GMK. They honestly remind me of the rip off legos vs the legit legos. The fit and finish just isn't on par. There are uneven lines around the bottoms and bumps where they came off of the main plastic sheet? Whatever that's called.
Cakirrama
272
Jun 4, 2017
Alex00322#FeelsBadMan, that is disappointing to hear, considering the premium price tag on this
Alex00322
789
Jun 4, 2017
Cakirramahttp://imgur.com/a/Faq6k for a bunch of plastic that costs over a hundred bucks you expect more.
Cakirrama
272
Jun 4, 2017
Alex00322That seems like bad quality control indeed - shouldve been discarded at the factory rather than rolled out..
xienze
24
Jun 4, 2017
Alex00322Uneven lines around the bottom -- who cares, you won't see it.
Sprue marks -- again, who cares, you can't see it when the caps are on the board.
Cakirrama
272
Jun 4, 2017
xienzeBlind consumerism... no wonder they are getting away with bad quality control x)))
consolation
742
Jun 5, 2017
Alex00322SA is a profile, not a brand. The panic button is part of their novelty line, not the premium custom sets. There's no client to keep happy with QA, and you can see that ABS is much thinner than, at least, on the sets I have. Having said that, if I had any issues SP always replaced the keys promptly and without problems. My GMK set had about an equal number of caps with sprue marks. However, GMK's packaging is much better, but at least SP's bags keep the shipping down, for us antipodeans...
climbalima
269
Jun 5, 2017
consolationThat Panic key is most certainly doubleshot ABS.
thinksimple
42
Jun 5, 2017
Alex00322To be fair, sprue marks are not avoidable. Getting rid of uneven lines that will not be visible when used, will add unnecessary cost.
Keep in mind GMK has higher MOQ and a lot less variability in terms of custom legends or colours.
ASCII
214
Jun 5, 2017
climbalimaThe panic key is from RAMAs numpad, though I'm curious is he ranting about a set of keys (10) to be precise... having not even typed on them?
Alex00322
789
Jun 5, 2017
ASCIINah, this is just the one that was within arms reach. I've typed on a set. I also have Dasher / Dancer on order. But I'll likely sell that instantly.
consolation
742
Jun 5, 2017
climbalimaYou're correct, I edited my response accordingly, on my mobile it was hard to tell. Honestly, can't see much difference in quality between SP and GMK, I was trifle disappointed with the GMK set I got, mostly due to rather unrealistic expectations on my part. Part of the problem is that SA profile uses much more plastic and has larger volume keys, so getting them to cool evenly etc would be much harder than with a simple cylindrical "cherry" profile that GMK use. I think even DSA keys, will on average, have a larger mass. My guess is, that's part of the reason it faded out of use, it's just a pita to manufacture and totally unworkable with really thin walls that the industry moved to in the 90s.
Lazylewis
444
Jun 5, 2017
Alex00322Their sets are expensive and still in such high demand that these caps won't ship until next year. I can assure you that situation doesn't occur when a company produces trash.
Alex00322
789
Jun 5, 2017
xienzeExcept, with SP you can. Because their marks are on the front or the sides. Not the back like you'd expect.
Alex00322
789
Jun 5, 2017
consolationSorry, I meant SP. I'm sure most people realized what I meant.
Cyphre
2708
Jun 5, 2017
Alex00322Well no, as there are other brands like Maxkeys who have also recently shipped sets in an SA profile.
Alex00322GMK is almost universally considered to be better quality, but I have had perfectly fine quality SP caps, a lot of it comes down to a set by set basis on QC. I don't have any doubts this set will be perfectly fine, and quality isn't the only thing you are paying a premium for.
consolation
742
Jun 5, 2017
Alex00322With all my sets I have had to use a polishing wheel (the soft fluffy one ppl!) on my dremel to get the fit and finish perfect - GMK, SP, Vortex, TaiHo felt like I almost had to make the caps from scratch to get them to an acceptable standard; it's just part of the hobby - employing someone to hand finish each set would make them cost prohibitive. If you really don't enjoy it, might be worth buying them secondhand from people who had already put in the effort, but, they are going to charge you accordingly.
If you have a cap/s that are unacceptable, contact SP customer support and they will ship you a replacement, they have been really good whenever I reached out to them. Usually issues are with space bars because their length makes them prone to warp. My guess is; they worked out it's cheaper to ship replacements than have someone super carefully examine millions of keys; there's certainly an argument to be made against that, but, I'm guessing most keyboardistas would rather get the sets cheaper, as you will need to finish it off to your own satisfaction anyway so... GMK make one type of profile in a smaller range of materials, it's easier for them to get the process polished so there's fewer faults, they certainly have a great reputation; it's the price you pay for choice. Sorry for the wall of text, I started to ramble a bit...
TL,DR; you may need to put a bit of elbow grease or contact SP, but you can certainly get the caps to the same standard; and you'll need to put some work into every set. :-)
PS: SA sprue marks are bottom front edge, even if you leave them you will only potentially see them on F keys and mods if you have one of the floating key designs, so max 20 keys to tidy up.
consolation
742
Jun 5, 2017
dead_pixel_designSeems like it will depend a lot on the experience of the buy runner; massdrop and T0mb3ry should be just fine by now, I do remember the drama with some early MD drops... but, you play with niche hobbies, you got to expect the odd CF. TBH, my experience with GMK is a sample size of one, I find the cherry profile the least appealing of all, off the cylindrical designs OEM feels more attractive - this is a totally subjective opinion, many people love it.
Superdoedoe
111
Jun 5, 2017
Alex00322What set did you get?
Alex00322
789
Jun 5, 2017
SuperdoedoeSA penumbra
Cakirrama
272
Jun 5, 2017
Alex00322How much was that set?
Cakirrama
272
Jun 5, 2017
This'll be my first drop ever and your explanation just gave me all the insight I needed to know. Given 0 alternatives and wanting these bad boys I am sort of "forced" to join the drop. I am intending on joining GMK Laser drop as soon as it becomes available (would also be my first GMK), since it is a work of art (Asian Mono-Legends so secksie). Eventually I'll end up with both sets and do a comparison - if I come to the conclusion that SP is significantly inferior, given the higher price point, it will also be the first and last SP purchase for me, and probably everyone that I know of. Until then, I have to at least give them some benefit of doubt..
What has kept me from previous GMK drops, were the ugly legends and number row...Laser has some sweet alternatives - can't wait for my first GMK drop to be honest.
Vigrith
4081
Jun 5, 2017
Alex00322Quite hasty to judge are we not? I don't like SA either, far too tall and a hassle to type on for me personally but saying their "caps are trash/garbage tier" is nothing but ridiculous. They're meant to feel differently from GMK for obvious reasons, regarding quality firstly you have to understand that your SA Penumbra set was commissioned off of SP by Oco for a limited run whose shipping estimate was super tight - not saying that's an excuse for flawed sets, just saying there's more of a chance you fuck up when things are rushed.
Additionally, are we going to pretend GMK has never had quality control issues? Let's take the absolute most recent problem - https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=89508.0 GMK Honeywell. If you want to read about it then click the link, I'd rather not have to elaborate here; GMK's had issues before this too, which again, you can read about in your own time if you'd like to educate yourself.
You can dislike SA all you want, you can dislike SP all you want, but your argument is still moot here. If their quality and feel (which is ENTIRELY subjective) was that inferior to GMK then sets like this would never sell, which is obviously not the case.
PS: I'll attached a picture of the Honeywell bottoms just because I think it's funny that that was one of your main complaints with SP and used as an argument in benefit of GMK.
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Geckt
709
Jun 5, 2017
VigrithI think there are better GMK examples for really messed up sets and people just refused to face reality when both companies have their ups and downs.
Preferences in one side doesn't means you have to bash the other, I am a big fan of SA sets but I don't go bashing GMK either.
If I would point out the worst sets in GMK then it has to be Hyperfuse (I had the R2, and they're really bad.) being one of the worst set in GMK history where nearly all the caps were badly spruced and scratched. I know even if I were to point that out, people will just cover it with a ridiculous joke or some lame excuses: oh but that's just a few caps and it's the poor choices of colors making them looked like they're scratched.
louie_dogg
27
Jun 5, 2017
VigrithThis example from GMK popped into my head. Pretty sure the Redditors who rage against SP to no end have just migrated here to troll the comment section.
I own multiple SA sets and the nature of the production of these plastic trinkets means there may be some imperfections. Same goes for GMK. The only set I've ever been 100% not happy with QC was R2 Hyperfuse and a lot of people know how that went.
Cakirrama
272
Jun 5, 2017
GecktPresent some data, because you are making some big comments. At least people up above presented images or links when talking this big.
Geckt
709
Jun 5, 2017
CakirramaI don't need to talk big nor is it anything new. In fact, it's very old news just got some of my replacement caps for these that were supposedly to be here long ago but ended up being almost a year's wait and still only given just two of them replacements only for those really unusable caps.
If you still aren't convinced, just look at @louie_dogg's comment above yours. So what more do you need? Still aren't convinced? You can look for the reddit discussion about GMK Hyperfuse then.
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Alex00322
789
Jun 5, 2017
CakirramaMore than twice the price of this one.
consolation
742
Jun 5, 2017
I pretty much agree with your write up, there are couple points, I think that are worth elaborating on:.
The satin finish applied to SP PBT SA sets, for example "Industrial SA" which I own, is a delightfully smooth and matt without being "bumpy," much smoother than Topre/Vortex PBT but not as smooth as shiny ABS. (Industrial SA is great because you can mix the keys into any set and they "look right;" the neutral grey and intermediate finish makes it a very useful set to own, if you like playing with layouts.) I have never seen a successful matt ABS without resorting to grippy textures - so with matt ABS on the chocolatier, you were pushing out the boat - to the edge of what's possible, imho.
Because SA double shots contain a much greater mass of material, they are much harder to manufacture without the odd imperfection, it has to cool down perfectly smooth not to warp or smudge. Tai-Ho use really thin plastic for a reason, it's cheap to make; it makes your keyboard much louder; which is good on alps sets, bad on cherry switches :-b (I kid... I kid...); for me, at least, it feels very chintzy... SP must have to run a fine line between the odd defect and keeping the prices competitive. This is why thick double shot went out of business in the 90s in the first place; thin, laser etched caps are always going to be more consistent. To get perfect sets out, we would be paying much, much, more. But, their customer support is amazing, so having them ship you an extra key here or there (for free) is a trade off worth making.
However, their shipping method is really sub standard. I suspect that it's due to being an industrial manufacturer that dealt with commercial quantities predominantly. This is why "group buys" had to be set up to get custom keycaps sets; it was the only way to meet MOQs. In the last couple years they set up a web store, so you can buy individual sets; but, with their build queue being slammed, they struggle to keep it filled up. (You can buy a rather nice high contrast Granite sets atm, btw) Their store (pimpmykeyboard) seems like such an afterthought to their main business. I don't think doing customer fluff, like stylish packaging etc, is in their corporate DNA tbh. Having dealt with purchasing between businesses, this is how SP treat you; you get exactly what you ordered, no more, no less and they have excellent customer support if you have issues. While certainly refreshing, the 0 fluff attitude, doesn't play well when you start to deal with more mainstream customers used to unboxing videos. When our hobby was a very niche activity, that was just fine, harcore hobyyists don't care about a nice box and will happily establish a personal relationship with their customer support person. With this going mainstream through sites like massdrop, it just feels budget to the average customer, they don't expect to build a relationship with customer support for the long term, they want a nicely designed box and no hassle. GMK has been much better at making this transition, imho.
I'm going to stop now... this has turned into a wall of text again.
Cakirrama
272
Jun 5, 2017
Alex00322Really ? :O I am convinced if that is true
Cakirrama
272
Jun 5, 2017
consolationWall of text appreciated
Alex00322
789
Jun 6, 2017
CakirramaSA Penumbra was 250
ASCII
214
Jun 6, 2017
Alex00322It was a fairly large set and it was $225.
Alex00322
789
Jun 6, 2017
ASCIII didn't get GB pricing.
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