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Showing 1 of 18 conversations about:
CCCP Kashalot Automatic Watch
RayF
22220
Jun 28, 2020
After today's news:
"Russian intelligence officers offered cash rewards to Taliban fighters to kill US, UK troops in Afghanistan."
I'm not the least bit interested in anything even remotely associated with Russia. Not that I ever was to begin with...
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/27/politics/russia-us-troops-afghanistan/index.html
A community member
Jun 29, 2020
RayFyet WW2 Luftwaffe-homage Fliegers are fine?
RayF
22220
Jun 29, 2020
I don’t care for them either.
However, I don’t equate the two: we’ve never been (or were) in a shooting war with the Soviet Union.
Which is to say Nazis and Communists are NOT the same thing, right?
(Edited)
A community member
Jun 30, 2020
RayFYou seemed confused that I would not wear a homage to a nazi era flieger
https://drop.com/buy/m-hle-glash-tte-terrasport-ii-automatic-watch/talk#discussions
Nazism is not the same as Communism but the sentiment of not wearing a watch that is a homage to a totalitarian regime is very similar. Do you now see my point about fliegers that directly reference WW2 Luftwaffe watches?
NorthernHarrier
55
Jun 30, 2020
RayFAs a matter of fact, US soldiers were in a shooting war with Russian soldiers just last year, in Syria. And apparently also with Russian proxy fighters in Afghanistan. It wasn’t the Soviet Union, but still....
(Edited)
RayF
22220
Jun 30, 2020
NorthernHarrier
Hence my reluctance to participate in the Vladimir Putin Commemorative Heritor drop
RayF
22220
Jun 30, 2020
So if you learned the bombadeer in the Enola Gay was wearing a Hamilton military/field watch when he pushed that button over Hiroshima, you be anti-field watches, or anti-Hamilton?
A community member
Jun 30, 2020
RayFThat wasn't my question, was it?
It was whether you now see my point about fliegers that directly reference nazi luftwaffe.
I am not particularly interested in point scoring here just wanted to point out the parallels between your position on russian watches and mine on nazi watches. You were seemingly nonplussed that I could hold such a position.
(Edited)
RayF
22220
Jul 2, 2020
No, I don't see your point. Flieger watches refer to a function, not a political philosophy. The fact that German flyers used them in WWII doesn't damn them from acceptance today any more than Diver watches used by the Italian Navy (Panerai) during the same conflict prevent us from buying Italian watches. One assumes Japanese pilots and divers used whatever appropriate watches were available to them, as well.
You might have a point if a given watch and its respective function was created specifically to harm others--for example, a watch developed to effectively time the gassing of Jews in Treblinka.
The issue with the CCCP theme is that it parallels Putin's CURENT desire to reform the Soviet Union, and as I've mentioned, Putin CURRENTLY paying bounties to the Taliban.
A community member
Jul 2, 2020
RayFThe flieger watch was designed to assist with bombing - that meets the criteria of 'harming others'. The design itself is not the issue, it is the homage to specific watches used by the Luftwaffe at this time where I see the issue. It references the military arm of Nazi Germany.
But, you disagree, I 'm not going to lose sleep over that. We all have our watch foibles, very few are completely logical.
RayF
22220
Jul 2, 2020
I say they were designed to assist with FLYING (specifically, navigation) as pointed out in this article:
https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/flieger-friday-everything-you-need-to-know-about-flieger-watches.5210919/
Unless you can cite sources indicating they were developed specifically for BOMBING?
(Edited)
A community member
Jul 2, 2020
RayFWell, Bombers are planes. That flew. In the war.
But, if you think that this is invalidated by other pilots who flew, not bombers, but fighter or reconnaissance aircraft that is not the entire point.
The watches I mention are homages to the military of a fascist regime.
That this regime purposefully killed civilians and allied service personnel is part of, but not the entire, point of my objection.
My objection is the homage to the Nazi military, not military in general or bombers specifically. The homage to the air arm of Nazi germany is the important bit.
(Edited)
RayF
22220
Jul 2, 2020
No, you are still confusing design with application--the concept/function of this particular classification (an Aviator's watch) was developed specially for navigation where accuracy equates to a more precise location (similar to the way Marine Chronometers were/are used in maritime navigation). What you do with the watch or its function are a secondary issue/concern. A more simplified example of that concept would be computers, word processors, and the internet--all of which can be used for good or evil applications.
If you were to apply your WWII thinking consistently, I'd be curious to know what "things" you feel as strongly about (would boycott) from the other two axis powers, Japan and Italy? Though smaller in scale, Japan has an atrocious history of atrocities committed in their region.
A community member
Jul 2, 2020
RayFEvery watch design is for a particular application, for example dive watches are designed for scuba diving (although rarely used for this purpose) so I certainly have never been ignorant of the distinction. So I have no issues with artefacts that were used by Axis powers in WW2 - I mean that would rule out me using a spoon, just because Japanese soldiers used spoons. If anyone produced a homage to the Japanese Imperial army cutlery I would boycott it...
Flieger watches, as a design, are an homage to one thing only and that is WW2 Luftwaffe watches - they cannot be accused as a generic 'aviator watch', such as a Glycine. As an aesthetic statement they derive from one source - Luftwaffe design referencing the Nazi period.
What else would I boycott? Since you're interested, I can think of no other examples of Nazi era military homage and I doubt if many manufacturers would find a market - Mercedes benz would not make a W31 staff car again - but if they did I would boycott it.
RayF
22220
Jul 3, 2020
Sorry pal, just not buying it. Certainly don't get your Spoon argument, spoons weren't created to harm anyone. Getting back on track, if flieger watches were a direct homage to Nazis, current German law would not allow their production. Aviation watches had been in use by pilots long before WWII. Every war leads to an update of all things related to war, watches included.
If you're looking for a better example of what you eluding too, consider the German military themed motorcycle helmets often worn to the me-too costume party that owning a Harley-Davidson has become. Of course riding a Harley doesn't make you an idiot, but wearing the helmet below absolutely does:
(Edited)
A community member
Jul 3, 2020
RayFYou seem fixated upon the point that whether an artifact is morally loaded is contingent on whether it was meant to harm anyone. That is entirely beside the point I have been making.
The flieger watch is a homage to watches worn by the air arm of the Nazi military in WW2. That is what I object to. Just like the german helmets in the photo, the offence does not lie in whether the steel contained within was used as weaponry, but by what the artifact represents - a homage to the military arm of the Nazi regime.
RayF
22220
Jul 3, 2020
You seem fixated on the homage to the Nazi military in WW2 angle--I'm sure all those Nazi bastards wore boxers too, but that's not enough to make me switch back to bikinis.
And by the way, if you've been making the same damn watch since creation (IWC and Laco for instance), the most current version is not an homage to the first. If that were true, the most recent Speedmaster would be an homage to the first--and it ain't. Same is true of the most recent iteration of the Corvette, it is not an homage to the first one--it's just the most current version.
In the same way, YOU are not an homage to ADAM!
A community member
Jul 3, 2020
RayFIWC and Laco make fliegers that reference the WW2 watch. It is that simple. It might be the current design but they directly references the original so closely that it is clearly not an evolution of design but an homage, an homage to an instrument indubitably related to the air arm of the Nazi party.
Every review I have seen stresses this fact: these are homages to the WW2 design. That is why I won't wear them.
Whether Nazis wore boxers is a strawman argument, it bears no relation to whether fliegers are a homage to the WW2 design.
If someone starts selling Wehrmacht boxers in an homage to the WW2 ones, well I guess I wouldn't buy them.
Anyway, there's no need to stroke out about it, Ray. You don't understand my position, I don't feel that I have to make you understand it, just let it go.
(Edited)
RayF
22220
Jul 3, 2020
I understand your position completely--it' just misinformed. There is no homage going on here.
Laco and IWC (and others) aren't referencing WWII watches; they made the originals, and they continue to produce the same models today (obviously with some improvements). Nobody woke up one morning and said: "hey let's make Nazi homage watches and see who's dumb enough to buy 'em."
Whether you're buying or not is of no concern to anyone but you--but don't give me that holier than thou, Oh, I don't support the Luftwaffe! bullshit; nobody buys a flieger watch to support the fucking Luftwaffe!
A community member
Jul 3, 2020
RayFIf it isn't an homage, but an updated model of the WW2 Luftwaffe watch, then its a greater reason not to wear one, not a lesser one.
Thanks for informing of that, I had always considered them an homage not the same thing, updated.
If you consider my position supercilious or condescending - hardly.
I'm not trying to convince someone else that they are mistaken in their belief. Although I have pointed out the design origin in the past.
But whether someone chooses to buy and wear them is not a moral harm and is not evidence of Nazi sympathy even if the watch is sympathetic of that period.
I just don't care to buy or wear them myself for reasons I have adequately expressed.
(Edited)
RayF
22220
Jul 4, 2020
Glad we settled that.
fishstickxxx
290
Jul 23, 2020
RayFThe generic flieger a STOWA perhaps (German), does not have a swastika or the SS skull and crossbones on it. This abomination has CCCP written right on it.
RayF
22220
Jul 24, 2020
fishstickxxx
I agree--that's a big difference between generic Fliegers and this watch--especially now.
fishstickxxx
290
Jul 24, 2020
RayFYous guyz really meted it out in a massive, well-versed, slug-fest! I started out early in this thread and still 'belieb' that this should not be allowed. Labeling stuff with brutal regime logos is not okay.
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