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LuckyEights
186
Aug 23, 2017
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Jackula
1743
Aug 24, 2017
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LuckyEightsIt's very easy to get good volume on planars due to their sensitivity, but extremely difficult to drive them well as they require enormous current. Neither the SMSL nor the DACPort are optimal for planars, both will only give you a glimpse of what they are capable of.
LuckyEights
186
Aug 25, 2017
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JackulaI have a Magni2 uber and a modi multibit which has a lot more power than what is needed and the frequency response of my planars is the same on it vs on my dacport or idea dac. The amount of details change with the Idea dac probably being the most resolving of the bunch. The only thing that changes other than details is the color (warmer or cooler sound) and this all comes down to preference. But the difference even in color is minimal at best. The schitt stack is warmer sounding but not due to the amp section the modi multibit is a warmer sounding dac. I have bounced back and forth on this many times before and have come to the conclusion that this argument is false. I have a lot to compare with the schitt stack, the xduo xd-05 the dacport the idea and I have the creative zxr sound card. Plus any old headphone jack on my surface or laptop. I have done a lot of comparisons and have come to the conclusion that if it outputs enough volume to exceed my comfortable listening level than there is plenty of power to drive the set of headphones.
Jackula
1743
Aug 25, 2017
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LuckyEightsEven Magni uber are not enough to drive these, heck they are not even enough for the HD6XX. You'll get enough volume sure, but there will be distortion at normal listening volumes. The 1.5wpc isn't enough for most planars to get enough headroom, and without enough headroom the output will clip. You can certainly draw conclusions based on your own listening experience, but the fact is the maths simply don't add up.
LuckyEights
186
Aug 25, 2017
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JackulaThe m1060 planar headphones are 50ohms and have a recommended power range of 200mw to 4 watts. Power (watts) = Voltage (volts) x Current. So if we take this into account you can either increase the voltage or increase the currant and end up with the same power output. In the case of solid state amps which is what all of my devices are they increase current to increase volume. If i had tube amps they increase voltage to increase volume. Current is the preferred method to increase volume as it tends to keep the frequency response more stable as volume is increased\decreased. Others argue however that voltage is more important because at some frequencies the resistance of the speaker increases and with out enough voltage you get clipping .
Ultimately there are thousands of threads out there with this constant battle whats better volts or current and everything else under the sun regarding this. All of them pretty much end on the same point if it sounds good to you then go for it. And what it really comes down to is that power is what matters and power translates to volume, if you have enough volume your good.
All i can say is that all of my headphones sound great on the Idea dac/amp. And also the magni 2 uber reaches 1.5watts at 50 ohms which is a lot more than the minimal recommended power of the m1060 headphones but if you were to actually crank it to that volume (high gain and max volume would be 1.5 watts) your ear drums would most likely rupture.
You also brought up sensitivity of the driver. Basically the more sensitive a driver is the less power is needed to achieve the same volume as compared to a driver that is less sensitive. The sensitivity is determined by the driver design (cone, driver surround, magnets). A stiffer surround means its harder to move the cone therefore requires more power. So the argument that planars are more sensitive but require more power does not hold any water.
Ultimately there are thousands of threads out there with this constant battle whats better volts or current and everything else under the sun regarding this. All of them pretty much end on the same point if it sounds good to you then go for it. And what it really comes down to is that power is what matters and power translates to volume, if you have enough volume your good.
All i can say is that all of my headphones sound great on the Idea dac/amp. And also the magni 2 uber reaches 1.5watts at 50 ohms which is a lot more than the minimal recommended power of the m1060 headphones but if you were to actually crank it to that volume (high gain and max volume would be 1.5 watts) your ear drums would most likely rupture.
You also brought up sensitivity of the driver. Basically the more sensitive a driver is the less power is needed to achieve the same volume as compared to a driver that is less sensitive. The sensitivity is determined by the driver design (cone, driver surround, magnets). A stiffer surround means its harder to move the cone therefore requires more power. So the argument that planars are more sensitive but require more power does not hold any water.
Jackula
1743
Aug 25, 2017
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LuckyEightsCorrection. Sensitivity is the volume you get per volt, nothing to do with overall power. If you read my other posts I've always said that planars you don't need much voltage, just a lot of current.
Whether voltage or current is the best way for volume gain I think you're not understanding the context of my response here. Either is fine as long as they are sufficient.
When you turn the volume pot, your amp may be supplying enough *voltage* for your desired volume, but current may be peaking out capped by the max power output of your amp which leads to clipping. Your audio may appear to be getting louder, but it's just becoming more distorted. Some people confuse a highly distorted sound as too loud because it hurts their hearing.
Meeting minimum power requirements doesn't guarantee you no clipping, but the m1060 are quite efficient I'll give you that, it's probably alright on the Schiit. I was mainly pointing out that your claim the SMSL can easily drive planars is incorrect. Take the he4xx for example, most people would not have the gear to run them, and you certainly can't run them on a Schiit Magni or a SMSL.
Whether voltage or current is the best way for volume gain I think you're not understanding the context of my response here. Either is fine as long as they are sufficient.
When you turn the volume pot, your amp may be supplying enough *voltage* for your desired volume, but current may be peaking out capped by the max power output of your amp which leads to clipping. Your audio may appear to be getting louder, but it's just becoming more distorted. Some people confuse a highly distorted sound as too loud because it hurts their hearing.
Meeting minimum power requirements doesn't guarantee you no clipping, but the m1060 are quite efficient I'll give you that, it's probably alright on the Schiit. I was mainly pointing out that your claim the SMSL can easily drive planars is incorrect. Take the he4xx for example, most people would not have the gear to run them, and you certainly can't run them on a Schiit Magni or a SMSL.
LuckyEights
186
Aug 26, 2017
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JackulaBut its not current that results in distortion its voltage. Current is the flow of electricity while voltage is the force behind it. You get distortion and clipping because the voltage is not high enough to push the current through the voice coil which results in that part of the sine wave being cut off flattening it turning it into direct current which makes the driver tense up and want to stop moving. You notice this mostly on lower frequencies because lower frequencies require more voltage because there is more resistance at lower frequencies. Its also why you can blow your speaker up as DC current causes the coil to get hot and either burn up or damage the coil. Insufficient voltage can also cause muddy bass more or less just a step below clipping but it wont damage the speaker just wont sound very good. Insufficient current causes an imbalance in the frequency response typically making the headphone sound thin or metallic.
In either case you can pick these things up when you listen its not like its subtle. If its distorting or sounding muddy (not enough voltage) your going to notice right away. Also if there isnt enough current the sound coming out isnt going to be pleasant and it will most likely annoy you unless you have an exceptionally high tolerance for high frequencies. In the end yes insufficient voltage or current can affect the sound but getting a better amp is not going to make a headphone more resolving or give you more detail that is the DACs role. A better amp may tighten up the bass if your headphones are muddy or it may warm up the headphone if they sound metallic or thin but that is all its going to do.
Again though this all comes down to preference of the listener as well (outside of clipping of course which is bad). Some people love muddy boomy bass and others like metallic sounding headphones. I prefer neutral to slightly warm and in this case i dont have any issues with any of my dacs and the bass is tight and well controlled so no power issues. And that is where im going to leave it. I enjoyed our discussion it was fun geeking out about audio stuff. But always remember it always comes down to listener preferences. I wish you luck in your endeavors and may you enjoy your audio quest fellow audiophile. Peace out!
In either case you can pick these things up when you listen its not like its subtle. If its distorting or sounding muddy (not enough voltage) your going to notice right away. Also if there isnt enough current the sound coming out isnt going to be pleasant and it will most likely annoy you unless you have an exceptionally high tolerance for high frequencies. In the end yes insufficient voltage or current can affect the sound but getting a better amp is not going to make a headphone more resolving or give you more detail that is the DACs role. A better amp may tighten up the bass if your headphones are muddy or it may warm up the headphone if they sound metallic or thin but that is all its going to do.
Again though this all comes down to preference of the listener as well (outside of clipping of course which is bad). Some people love muddy boomy bass and others like metallic sounding headphones. I prefer neutral to slightly warm and in this case i dont have any issues with any of my dacs and the bass is tight and well controlled so no power issues. And that is where im going to leave it. I enjoyed our discussion it was fun geeking out about audio stuff. But always remember it always comes down to listener preferences. I wish you luck in your endeavors and may you enjoy your audio quest fellow audiophile. Peace out!
Jackula
1743
Aug 26, 2017
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LuckyEightsClipping can be from a lack of voltage or current, but clipping from lack of voltage is unlikely when it comes to planars. Lack of current does not make the high frequency harsh or cause a muddy bass, it simply clips and distorts which results in these types of interpretations. Small amounts of clipping is not obvious to the listener, but affects the overall presentation in negative ways - soundstage, transparency, prat are a few.
When you are talking about low frequencies needing more power, that is generally true for dynamic transducers, planars generally have a flat impedance curve so it does not apply.
Also sending clipped signals to your speakers does not damage them, this is a common misconception. Sending clipped signals to your speaker transducers can damage them but that is only applicable if you are using active bi-amping. All speakers have passive crossovers which prevents DC from being sent, those who argue otherwise do not have a good understanding of high pass filters. You are more likely to damage your speakers by providing too much power than under powering them.
Finally I don't disagree that preference plays a factor, I always tell people to use their own ears. Relying on opinion or consensus is not the best way to buy things, but I help where I can by providing facts. Best of luck to you too and I'm glad we kept this civil :)
When you are talking about low frequencies needing more power, that is generally true for dynamic transducers, planars generally have a flat impedance curve so it does not apply.
Also sending clipped signals to your speakers does not damage them, this is a common misconception. Sending clipped signals to your speaker transducers can damage them but that is only applicable if you are using active bi-amping. All speakers have passive crossovers which prevents DC from being sent, those who argue otherwise do not have a good understanding of high pass filters. You are more likely to damage your speakers by providing too much power than under powering them.
Finally I don't disagree that preference plays a factor, I always tell people to use their own ears. Relying on opinion or consensus is not the best way to buy things, but I help where I can by providing facts. Best of luck to you too and I'm glad we kept this civil :)
Trilobites
217
Aug 26, 2017
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Jackulafirst time i've heard the magni can't drive the he400i/he4xx
Jackula
1743
Aug 26, 2017
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TrilobitesWithin the context of above conversation, it can't be driven optimally with a Magni. Sure you can drive the he4xx with a Magni but it comes down, once again, to volume vs distortion.
stalepie
19
Sep 2, 2017
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LuckyEightsDoesn't the CEntrance provide finer volume controls with that wheel? I read the SMSL Idea only gives 20 clicks.
LIBY555
192
Sep 13, 2017
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LuckyEightsThanks man i has on the fence and your comment was just what i needed.
I guess the Idea will drive the Pinnacle P1 without an issue right?
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So i would say get the SMSL its cheaper better sound quality and you can play any file you want. I would only ever recommend the dacport if your really worried about some particularly harder to drive headphones. Just my two cents to save my fellow audiphiles some money and get better sound quality. Peace out!