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GhettoRice
77
Feb 20, 2015
I would still like clarification on this statement
"There are 7 separate insulated wires inside every cable. Each wire serves different frequencies. There is this thing in Physics called "skin effect" that has bass frequencies travel in the middle of the wire and treble frequencies travel towards the edge of the wire. We are actually creating separate bass and treble wires to allow the frequencies to get there without interference. It's an important difference from standard cables and it becomes quite clear once you plug these in."
There seems to be this idea that since they sell stuff here CEntrance doesn't have to explain themselves to anyone but using some buzz words to people they already know are duped by this kind of tactic. CEntrance is not beyond reproach nor should anyone think they sell crap, but once a producer enters the mass margin market of cables with these descriptions is treading a fine line.
To say this is not the place to "discuss" the merits of you product is very telling that there might not be anything but the aforementioned buzz words.
Edit: @RShack not buying into overpriced marketing hype at a supposed msrp of $300 and putting up with fluff responses from an educated designer is not being "nice"
GhettoRicehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect
...The AC current density in a conductor decreases exponentially from its value at the surface. ... at 60 Hz, a 2000 MCM (1000 square millimetre) copper conductor has 23% more resistance than it does at DC. ...A type of cable called litz wire (from the German Litzendraht, braided wire) is used to mitigate the skin effect for frequencies of a few kilohertz to about one megahertz. It consists of a number of insulated wire strands woven together in a carefully designed pattern, so that the overall magnetic field acts equally on all the wires and causes the total current to be distributed equally among them. With the skin effect having little effect on each of the thin strands, the bundle does not suffer the same increase in AC resistance that a solid conductor of the same cross-sectional area would due to the skin effect.
Let me know specifically what's not clear.
GhettoRice
77
Feb 20, 2015
CEntranceAgain it seems you missed my question as to how you are providing dedicated sound paths for specific frequencies as implied before with the seperate conductors for bass and treble if the all terminate at a single point in both ends as per this quote from you "Each wire serves different frequencies."
Also It seems your using 2000mcm cable which is sub station feeder size rated past 13.8kV so I don't know who is running. That in their place and how it is a logical comparison. It seems you don't realize that within the audio band the skin effect at speaker/headphone power levels it is not an issue,
Table 1 Basis: Depth at 20 kHz = 18.4 mils (.0184 in.) Radius x 2 = 36.8 mils (.0368 in.) Diameter Amount of conductor used at 20 kHz, based on conductor size Conductors Diameter % of conductor used 24 AWG 0.024 100% at 20 kHz 22 AWG 0.031 100% at 20 kHz 12 AWG 0.093 75% at 20 kHz 10 AWG 0.115 68% at 20 kHz
Until you get past the audible range of frequency of 20khz this is something that isn't a problem. Please see my previous Belden link.
As a final I'll leave this quote from wiki here "There is debate among audiophiles surrounding the impact that high-end cables have on audio systems with audibility of the changes central to the discussion. While some speaker wire marketers claim audible improvement with design or exotic materials, skeptics say that a few meters of speaker wire from the power amplifier to the binding posts of the loudspeakers cannot possibly have much influence because of the greater influence from complex crossover circuits found in most speakers and particularly from the speaker driver voice coils that have several meters of very thin wire. To justify claims of enhanced audio quality, many marketers of high-end speaker cables cite electrical properties such as skin effect, characteristic impedance or resonance; properties which are generally little understood by consumers. None of these have any measurable effect at audio frequencies, though each matters at radio frequencies.[12] Industry experts have disproven the higher quality claims through measurement of the sound systems and through double-blind ABX tests of listeners.[4][13] There is however agreement that the overall resistance of the speaker wire should not be too high."
It's all about the "resistance"
Edit: @nanliu that link seems to confirm my thoughts on this being a useless buzzword
GhettoRiceI answered. We use the litz wire principle, with a central conductor and a network of satellite conductors. These wires are made from different materials and feature different phase response. We are not talking about bi-wiring the speaker with two separate amps for the treble and bass speaker. That's the best you can do, but not every speaker has separate connections for treble and bass. For those that have a cross-over built-in, there is only one input and we deal with losses in the cable by allowing the current in the wire to take separate paths. Bass in the middle, treble on the outside (it so happens). The more current you push, especially during transients, the more important this is. You will see this physical arrangement in Audioquest, Kimber cables and many others. Note, we are not charging you $1000 per cable like they do and people know their cables and buy them on actual merits.
Your table seems to conflict your statements, since it talks about loss and you don't. You have not specified the formulas you used, the current and the frequency. Your table contains insufficient information for decision making and cannot be used to form an argument.
Further, if you believe that 20kHz is the highest frequency you can hear, I will leave you with a request to perform a simple experiment. I learned about this from the great Rupert Neve, who designed a lot of recording consoles in the 70s and influenced the sound of rock music for decades to come. All of the gear he designs now extends to 100kHz. Here is the experiment:
Take a pair of good speakers and a high quality amp. Make sure there is no artificial restriction on the max frequency they can reproduce. In other words, make sure that 40kHz could actually come out of the speakers, albeit somewhat attenuated.
Setup two oscillators, both set to output 20kHz, one generating a clean sine wave and another generating a triangle wave. Setup the oscillators' levels such that they produce the same power output.
Sit between the speakers, close your eyes and listen, while a friend switches between the sine wave and a triangle wave. I have done this experiment and I can tell the change from sine wave to triangle wave and back. According to the physics text book, this is not possible, because the only difference between them is harmonics above 20kHz, which we cannot technically hear. Well, apparently we do and perhaps the physics textbook is not 100% accurate.
Last question: Why do broadcasters and professional recording and mastering engineers record at 96kHz and 192kHz? And while we are at it, is there a benefit to DSD?
If all we hear is 20kHz, then 44.1 should be just fine. And yet, somehow an industry of high end gear exists. Could all those professional people be fooled? I know many of them personally (Tom Jung, Bob Katz, Frank Serafine and Brian Gardner, among others are our endorsers) and I highly doubt that they have been "duped" by the marketers.
May be there is a world beyond the 20kHz claim? May be if you actually listened to our cables you would hear a difference? You cannot run just on the theory alone, because any theory is always modified by practice.
Having said that, I'm not interested in arguing, since I have plenty of customers for whom my products actually matter. I respect that you have an opinion. We may just need to agree to disagree.
GhettoRice
77
Feb 21, 2015
CEntranceWell I'll leave you to your "marketing" then if you and the defenders keep going back to what "others" overcharge for.
For skin effect to actually be an issue here it needs to be relevant to below 20khz which is what the percentage of conductor calculation is useful for. Calculate the area of the wire ((pi * radius) squared) - calculate the unused diameter (diameter - 2*depth) - calculate the unused area (pi R squared again) - Percent used = ((total_area - unused_area) / total_area) * 100 Using this method, 12 AWG wire uses 63%
This is important as in the audio band, your selling point of skin effect is a non sequitur argument.
As for your listening test, 24/192 and DSD is again making a mountain out of a molehill. http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
For anyone interested in actual science behind the sound check u/nanliu link which is actually based on measurements http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/skin-effect-relevance-in-speaker-cables Or http://www.audioholics.com/gadget-reviews/speaker-cable-reviews-faceoff-2/speaker-cable-reviews-faceoff-2-page-2
-------------------- "The bottom line is Skin Effect is not a relevant factor of concern when choosing / designing high performance loudspeaker cables for hifi audio systems. The DC resistance and inductance of the cable are far more important factors as can be seen in our Speaker Cable Face Off and Cross Coax vs Zip Cord articles where we modeled lumped element parameters (R,L,C) of speaker cables.
For more information on skin effect and its impact on cable resistance and inductance, see Calculating Inductance of Speaker Cables.
You should question the validity and intentions of a particular cable vendor(s) when they boast in their marketing literature about solving the "Skin Effect" problem, and ask yourself, "Are they stressing this point as a means to an ends to justify their outlandish asking price of their 'exotic' speaker cables"?
Next we will look at the Fallacy of "Strand Jumping" leading to the myth of diode rectification and how this theory cannot be sound as it violates basic Electrical Engineering Principles, the Laws of Physics, and common sense." -------------------------
Edit: make the msrp $99 like your sale and then it's wouldn't be as egregious to bloat the price to make the drop seem like a deal. These are $99 cables max on a good day. A wise consumer always makes sure a "sale" is a "sale".
Mono price is your friend for cables people. Don't be baffled by bullshit.
eypsi
9
Feb 21, 2015
GhettoRiceDo you work for Monoprice? Basically the same cable (minus the bullshit litz design to combat the bullshit skin effect) is sold there for.... what? $98/pair:
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023901&p_id=11938&seq=1&format=2
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