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richard.1.bradshaw
74
Dec 8, 2016
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why anyone but a "high quality" 8 footcablevwhen it takes at least 100 feet to have signal loss on a generic 18 gauge cable. Don't be stupid. Spend elsewhere.
GUTB
238
Dec 8, 2016
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richard.1.bradshawGoing to drop some rudimentary knowledge: virtually every high-end cable manufacturer uses OCC (generally 7N / ultra pure grade) copper conductors. Conductors suffer from self-noise due to electrons traversing "grain boundaries" and also copper oxides that arise from impurities.
The key thing is: you have to audition cables. They tend to be very system-dependent. Miss-matching cables with systems often lead to a degradation of sound quality. The likes of Shunyata, Nordost, JPS, etc, are safe but if you go with smaller boutique manufacturers that charge much less you have to do a lot of research on them first -- generally stick with manufacturers that offer a no-questions-asked return policy.
This cable is very inexpensive (true high-end speaker cables go for THOUSANDS of dollars from the above known makers) so I wouldn't expect great revelations from it. Its primary selling point appears to be its multi-layer conductor geometry that utilizes the skin effect phenomena (ie, lower frequencies tent to travel down the center of the conductor while higher frequencies tend to travel around the edges).
The key thing is: you have to audition cables. They tend to be very system-dependent. Miss-matching cables with systems often lead to a degradation of sound quality. The likes of Shunyata, Nordost, JPS, etc, are safe but if you go with smaller boutique manufacturers that charge much less you have to do a lot of research on them first -- generally stick with manufacturers that offer a no-questions-asked return policy.
This cable is very inexpensive (true high-end speaker cables go for THOUSANDS of dollars from the above known makers) so I wouldn't expect great revelations from it. Its primary selling point appears to be its multi-layer conductor geometry that utilizes the skin effect phenomena (ie, lower frequencies tent to travel down the center of the conductor while higher frequencies tend to travel around the edges).
aeberbach
233
Dec 9, 2016
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GUTBCan you provide data proving differentiation of cables in a valid ABX listening test? Any experts; any cables where a simple volt/ohm meter can't measure a difference between them.
GUTB
238
Dec 9, 2016
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aeberbachABX testing does not work well in audio due to various issues such as the inability to control individual psycho-acoustical parameters, the effects of audio memory, etc. Audio memory can be overcome with very large differences of course, but when talking about cables the differences are significant but not large enough to overcome the above mentioned effects.
When audiophiles talk about their findings when comparing cables, it's not a mass delusion but rather real differences being detected and noted. For example I bought a pair of Kimber RCA interconnects -- they were far from their top of the line, under $100 -- but when I compared them head-to-head with a pair of old no-name interconnects I found in the basement, the Kimbers were SIGNIFICANTLY inferior. If I was being swayed by expectation bias, I should have forced myself to enjoy the Kimbers more in order to justify their cost and better looks. The difference in quality wasn't small -- the difference was pretty obvious.
I recently purchased a LessLoss Standard noise-filtering AC cable ($600). It is quite attractive with a unique braided construction and big heavy Oyaide plugs. But after over 400 hours of burn-in, I could only detect a small improvement in terms of instrument separation and forwardness in the sound stage. After doing many back-to-back tests I'm fairly sure that small difference isn't in my head -- but the difference is so small I'm considering just returning it anyway. I may keep it anyway in case I need it for a piece of equipment that may make better use of it. I wish my expectation bias would do a better job.
When audiophiles talk about their findings when comparing cables, it's not a mass delusion but rather real differences being detected and noted. For example I bought a pair of Kimber RCA interconnects -- they were far from their top of the line, under $100 -- but when I compared them head-to-head with a pair of old no-name interconnects I found in the basement, the Kimbers were SIGNIFICANTLY inferior. If I was being swayed by expectation bias, I should have forced myself to enjoy the Kimbers more in order to justify their cost and better looks. The difference in quality wasn't small -- the difference was pretty obvious.
I recently purchased a LessLoss Standard noise-filtering AC cable ($600). It is quite attractive with a unique braided construction and big heavy Oyaide plugs. But after over 400 hours of burn-in, I could only detect a small improvement in terms of instrument separation and forwardness in the sound stage. After doing many back-to-back tests I'm fairly sure that small difference isn't in my head -- but the difference is so small I'm considering just returning it anyway. I may keep it anyway in case I need it for a piece of equipment that may make better use of it. I wish my expectation bias would do a better job.
aeberbach
233
Dec 9, 2016
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GUTB> I recently purchased a LessLoss Standard noise-filtering AC cable ($600).
Enough said. ABX testing works great in audio but if you can afford it you're better off believing in magic.
Enough said. ABX testing works great in audio but if you can afford it you're better off believing in magic.
GUTB
238
Dec 9, 2016
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aeberbachABX testing is audio is notoriously poor in getting accurate results. That's not my opinion but fact.
Go to your local high-end audio store and sit down in front of their system, and then ask them how they achieved that level of audio quality. Speakers, amp / pre-amp and source matching and room acoustics are the most important, but cables (including power cables / power conditioning) will make up a lesser but still significant part of the total. Well, that's fairly rhetorical because I doubt a have-nothing student would feel comfortable enough going into one of these places when you know you're not going to buy anything. But you if you were into audio instead of class warfare you could try on-line boutique components with no-questions-asked and in-home audition return policies.
Going around this wide circle back the original topic, CEntrance is a reputable manufacturer of low-end audio products. I doubt they would produce a product that wasn't competitive.
Go to your local high-end audio store and sit down in front of their system, and then ask them how they achieved that level of audio quality. Speakers, amp / pre-amp and source matching and room acoustics are the most important, but cables (including power cables / power conditioning) will make up a lesser but still significant part of the total. Well, that's fairly rhetorical because I doubt a have-nothing student would feel comfortable enough going into one of these places when you know you're not going to buy anything. But you if you were into audio instead of class warfare you could try on-line boutique components with no-questions-asked and in-home audition return policies.
Going around this wide circle back the original topic, CEntrance is a reputable manufacturer of low-end audio products. I doubt they would produce a product that wasn't competitive.
cpl1
245
Dec 9, 2016
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GUTBAs it should be of anyone who has ever studied physics or electricity. Contrary to what "audiophiles" believe, there is nothing inherently special about audio when talking about signal integrity. If cable "burn-in" was actually possible, it would come down to some physical change in the conductor itself, which would have been well studied and documented by now. But alas, you don't see electrical engineers "burning-in" the wires on oscilloscope probes for hundreds of hours before being considered ready for actual measurement work.
cpl1
245
Dec 9, 2016
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GUTBErm, electricity has to do with everything if you're actually designing an audio product. But you raise a good point so I'll compromise: I'll agree to listen with a few different cables to see if I can tell the difference, if you agree to do a little reading on signal integrity. And that offer is only slightly sarcastic.
aeberbach
233
Dec 9, 2016
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GUTB"Class warfare"? No, this is idiocy warfare. ABX testing is notorious only for accurate results that shatter fantasies, which is why audiophiles twist themselves in knots to avoid it.
Ballpein
117
Dec 10, 2016
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GUTBShow me an ABX test that proves people can hear anything you just said.
Ballpein
117
Dec 10, 2016
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GUTBHogwash. This is the same argument that people use to defend homeopathy. How incredibly convenient that audiophiles dispute the only test that could scientifically validate their claims.
What ABX audio tests prove, over and over, is that while people *might be able to perceive a difference between speaker wires (or amps, or power cables), they absolutely can't tell the difference between "audiophile" cable and 16 gauge zip wire.
*might is important in this sentence because this could be placebo effect.
What ABX audio tests prove, over and over, is that while people *might be able to perceive a difference between speaker wires (or amps, or power cables), they absolutely can't tell the difference between "audiophile" cable and 16 gauge zip wire.
*might is important in this sentence because this could be placebo effect.
GUTB
238
Dec 10, 2016
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BallpeinThis statement is false. People can easily tell the difference between cables. However, due to the many problems with ABX testing audio, people who otherwise can easily discern differences have that ability destroyed. If you want to experiment with the audio memory effect, rapidly go back-and-forth between two different headphones while playing one of your favorite tracks, and you will notice that after a while the two headphones will begin to sound the same.
Ballpein
117
Dec 10, 2016
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GUTBYou can call science 'false' all you want - itdoes not make you right.
You should buy buy whatever you want and enjoy it. If it makes you happy, I'm all for it. And if you want to come to a discussion like this and say, "I believe these cables sound better and they enhance my enjoyment of my system," I would have nothing to dispute.
But when you bluster up and start "dropping knowledge" and stating "facts" that (a) run counter to scientific knowledge of physics and electricity and (b) cannot be proven by any scientific experiment, then I have a problem. You're spreading misinformation and putting yourself into the same camp as astrologists, homeopothists, climate change deniers, and flat earthers.
You should buy buy whatever you want and enjoy it. If it makes you happy, I'm all for it. And if you want to come to a discussion like this and say, "I believe these cables sound better and they enhance my enjoyment of my system," I would have nothing to dispute.
But when you bluster up and start "dropping knowledge" and stating "facts" that (a) run counter to scientific knowledge of physics and electricity and (b) cannot be proven by any scientific experiment, then I have a problem. You're spreading misinformation and putting yourself into the same camp as astrologists, homeopothists, climate change deniers, and flat earthers.
angryuser
9
Dec 11, 2016
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GUTBWow. You're either an idiot with too much money, or you're trying to sell something.
Ballpein
117
Dec 11, 2016
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GUTBWhere do you get "class warfare" from?
For a guy who's spouting voodoo, contradicting established science, and saying things like "what do physics and electricity have to do with sound?", you've got an awful lot of nerve accusing anyone else of ignorance.
The irony is thick here. You tell me to listen (assuming I haven't) ... and yet no scientific test has ever proven that humans can hear these differences you speak of - in fact, they prove the opposite. There are many people in this thread who believe the science and objective facts, and then there's you who says that science is wrong and you are right. Which is fine, believe what you like... but then you go on to make personal attacks and paranoid accusations about our motives.
PS the word "objectivist" doesn't mean what you think it means.
For a guy who's spouting voodoo, contradicting established science, and saying things like "what do physics and electricity have to do with sound?", you've got an awful lot of nerve accusing anyone else of ignorance.
The irony is thick here. You tell me to listen (assuming I haven't) ... and yet no scientific test has ever proven that humans can hear these differences you speak of - in fact, they prove the opposite. There are many people in this thread who believe the science and objective facts, and then there's you who says that science is wrong and you are right. Which is fine, believe what you like... but then you go on to make personal attacks and paranoid accusations about our motives.
PS the word "objectivist" doesn't mean what you think it means.
Iamnothere
17
Dec 11, 2016
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scoootyNo, but it's always a waste of money. You might as well spend 400 on the infamous Denon cat 5 cable.
cpl1
245
Dec 11, 2016
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GUTBSo we're all accused of so-called "class warfare", and yet you're the one labelling everyone a "have-nothing student". Just how far is your head stuck up your own ass to not recognize the irony? I'd advise everyone here to stop arguing with this guy, because he's obviously incapable of civilized (whether subjective or objective) conversation.
fasc
28
Dec 11, 2016
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GUTBOr...ABX testing is getting accurate results...You just may not like the outcome.
http://hometheaterreview.com/why-do-audiophiles-fear-abx-testing/
Instead of using an ABX box, one could use a high end system and just swap out the test articles.
BTW, I like good audio equipment. I believe that one can hear different sound signatures in different amplifiers. I can hear a difference between tubes and solid state.
While I acknowledge that one can see differences in differential treated copper wires under the electron microscope, I highly doubt that one can hear those differences.
GUTB
238
Dec 12, 2016
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cpl1The have-nothing student is the common generalization of the die-hard objectvist cult member. A real audiophile, with, let's say -- a $20k system -- wants to get the last 10% out of his system, so he auditions various high-end cables; if a given cable doesn't make a difference in his system, he just sends them back and tries the next one until he gets results he wants. But the have-nothing student won't do that; he looks at the high end cables the audiophiles rave about online and notices that the cheapest of them costs more than his entire Chinese shovelware Class-D and Amazon micro desktop speakers / lo-fi headphone system put together. But instead of aspiring for greater things, or managing his finances to try the high-end, the have-nothing objectivst will instead find comfort in class warfare; he doesn't WANT to listen to high end gear, and WANTS to believe high end cables are just snake oil.
dannymcs
15
Dec 12, 2016
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GUTB> ABX testing is audio is notoriously poor in getting accurate results. That's not my opinion but fact.
Yes. Because there's a lot of snake oil. If it doesn't get accurate results THERE'S NO DIFFERENCE.
Yes. Because there's a lot of snake oil. If it doesn't get accurate results THERE'S NO DIFFERENCE.
mattris
1266
Keyboard Club Member
Dec 12, 2016
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GUTBIt's not that most audio/music enthusiasts don't want to listen to 'high-end gear' with 'high-end cables'. It's that they can't justify spending so much more money for relatively minor benefits. A wisely put-together $3k system can offer 90% of the performance/features as a $20k system. Relatively inexpensive spools of 10-16 gauge cable suffices in most audio set-ups.
Specialized ('high-grade') speaker cables (with shielding, pre-attached connectors, particular metals, etc.) can be beneficiary or preferable, but speaker cables are rarely the bottleneck when overall system performance is taken into consideration. The amplifier, speakers, room acoustics, and background noise are all far more important things to consider when constructing a system for maximum performance.
Specialized ('high-grade') speaker cables (with shielding, pre-attached connectors, particular metals, etc.) can be beneficiary or preferable, but speaker cables are rarely the bottleneck when overall system performance is taken into consideration. The amplifier, speakers, room acoustics, and background noise are all far more important things to consider when constructing a system for maximum performance.
scoooty
45
Dec 13, 2016
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IamnothereYou would fall over if I told you how much I paid for my power cable
Iamnothere
17
Dec 13, 2016
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scoootyNah I'd just laugh all the way to the bank. Audiophiles love snake oil, so long as it's in a pretty package.
kuhnsrc
91
Jun 6, 2017
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cpl1Hahaha you made such a good point about the scope probes. If conductor burn-in was a thing, you would be more afraid of physically moving the cables than anything else, as moving the cables literally bends the metallic crystals, but that doesn't seem to make a difference to audiophools. Logic, reason and real data (Not the pseudo data they use when describing the effects of various snake oils) is lost on them.
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