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Rochambeaux
348
Mar 13, 2017
After making the big mistake of the Razer Leviathan, I tried over a dozen soundbars (including high end ones). In the end I went with a small desktop DAC/Amp and a pair of Kanto YU3's and a separate powered sub.
Make no mistake: Soundbars are for situations where you are willing to make big sacrifices in sound quality for size/convenience. For TV watching, they are great. Gaming/music? Awful
Rochambeaux I can guarantee that is not the case here. In fact Creative Labs made a huge effort not to call this product a sound bar. Do some research on this product. Listen to some reviews. This product is in a class all its own. I have one of these personally and its amazing!
@JeradW
Rochambeaux
348
Mar 13, 2017
Tex-ArozziThe problem with "reviews" is most of them are made in exchange for free or highly discounted products. Then you have to factor out all the people coming from built in monitor speakers or other "junk" audio systems. In those cases I'm sure the Katana is a huge upgrade.
If the offer here is to provide a 100% money back guarantee if you're not fully satisfied with the product then maybe I'll bite.
JeradW
11
Mar 13, 2017
JeradWYes, that is what Amazon has called this product. As soon as Creative Labs sees this I am sure they will have them correct it. I have spoken to many executives at Creative Labs about this product and when I have accidentally called this product a soundbar they were not happy. Now that I have tested it myself and used it for gaming, movies, music I can see why.
Creative Labs is known for their sound quality and have been for years. What sets this product apart from all the others is that their best internal sound boards that they use on their PCIEX and DACS products is built into this device! Its unmatched by anything remotely close to this price point.
RochambeauxThat's precisely what we avoided when we were designing the Katana.
As virtually every single reviewer that has received this product has stated...they were skeptical due to the form factor and we delivered and exceeded expectations.
This is also why we've coined the phrase UMAS versus "Sound Bar" because the Katana features tech and design that is truly unique to it to maximize the audio output from the form factor and to deliver on what we promised. A small footprint speaker that delivers huge / high-quality audio.
The only thing the Katana shares in similarity with Sound Bars is a form factor (of sorts). There's a lot under the hood that makes it quite unique.
DigitalRonynOH AND...yes...not sure WHY they are calling it a sound bar. We're on the Amazon description change. Thanks for the heads up on this.
Rochambeaux
348
Mar 13, 2017
DigitalRonynThanks for the clarification.
You have to understand the skepticism for any product claiming to be such a game changer. Especially in the audio world, where "performance" is very subjective to the individual.
While the $30ish saving on MD is nice, I think more people would rather buy from Amazon with the knowledge that they have a 30 day, no-hassle full return window.
RochambeauxCompletely understand the skepticism.
We knew it would be there and know we have work to do to change peoples minds that this "form factor" can deliver.
You are absolutely spot on..the audio world is merciless when it comes to subjectivity. We hang our hats on having been on the "overall positive side" of that subjectivity for 3 decades now and definitely wanted to raise the bar (pun somewhat intended) with Katana.
Alchemyfire
53
Mar 14, 2017
DigitalRonyn@DigitalRonyn Just a slightly off topic question, how well does this play with the SoundBlaster ZXR?
AlchemyfireIt plays great. I use it in my every day setup! (talked a bit about this above).
Jcarry
13
Mar 16, 2017
Rochambeaux10000% agree with the statement about sacrificing for convenience. This is a subpar setup to compare a true 2.1 system to, it's just not comparable, the quality is leaps and bounds ahead of what ANY soundbar can do. I had a lengthy conversation with @DigitalRonyn about this soundbar and he seems to think this a good option for a computer even going as far to say that their system does not upscale in any form, which is quite perposterous seeing as it impliments HRTF. He stopped replying to me once I posted the specs listed from their own website and the patent on HRTF which explains what HRTF actually does for the listener.
You sir are listening to accoustic bliss with your YU3's, I've got a set of Rokits that are superb as well. Cheers on the great example man!
JcarryI KNOW it's a good option for a computer...I personally know it is (as do several other users and reviewers who have attested to that fact), I use one every day at my PC station. That doesn't mean that other solutions aren't ideal. It just means that the Katana is perfectly suitable for what we're claiming it is..and LOTS of people agree with us. (We'd love it if it were everyone, but hey..it's audio and people like what they like)
I also did not state we do not upscale in any form. As with a good part of this conversation you are mixing definitions and statements and putting them in a weird context. I would sincerely appreciate you not attempting to remix my comments incorrectly. Anyone can go back and read my comments and see them in their entirety.
I only point that out because you seem to think I'm on some bizarre mission to "mislead" customers when in fact I've been actively explaining our claims in several posts so far (and it's also all in the content that is on the site and on this product page), and I'm smart enough to know that trying to mislead people on the web is dumb....trying to do it in a community that's as savvy as Massdrop is just flat out suicide.
What I actually said was (once again) that the Katana is recognized by Windows and fully receives 7.1 signals (or 5.1, or stereo...etc..but up to 7.1). It then applies an HRTF effect (if desired) to simulate a surround effect and plays that back over the Katanas speaker configuration. The more streams you "feed" the Katanas processor the more convincing and realistic the effect will be. Since we've got an active processor instead of a "dumb" codec you can customize the output from the Katana and we are also able to do some real-time on-the-fly adaption to the audio signal that can further optimize the surround effect (a kind of audio "secret sauce" if you will).
You then cut and paste a definition of one method of employing an HRTF (there are several methods for employing HRTFs for various situations and playbacks). Which was a great definition of one way of using an HRTF for sure.
This delayed my response a bit because I've been conversing with the audio scientists i work with that actually work on the algorithms that lead to the patents and products that we make regarding our conversation here. I wanted to make sure that I wasn't mis-characterizing anything.
The part where they (the audio scientists) had some confusion was what you mean by "upscaling". (This is actually where I'm a bit confused as well and why I went to the experts). Upscaling is not really a commonly used phrase in the audio world outside of talking about the bit-rate etc (and even this is really only used by certain companies). And then went over the part where you said....
"I was wrong about how your audio processor handles the Input, I was not wrong about it being upscaled as an end result. Unless you are saying your processor can magically turn a 16khz sample into a 24khz sample without any upscaling of any form(numbers are for an example not an actual reference). "
This led to a little bit of confusion as this is related to sample-rate conversion and has absolutely nothing to do with virtualization (which is what I had been talking about and explaining) , channel count or Dolby 5.1 , 7.1 or surround support. The word "upmix" would be, but not "upscaling".
So to clarify here, we continued to talk on the assumption that you were not referring to sample-bit rate "upscaling" because we don't claim that (anywhere..especially because this isn't really a common term to use) and I had been been talking about virtualization and channel count.
Then there was this part where you said:
"by definition you are upscaling part of the HRTF to replicate/enhance(this is the upscaling part buddy) . Unless you guys have completely redesigned how HRTF is being implimented."
As the audio scientists have explained it to me (and I'll defer to them since they are the guys that wrote these actual algorithms and study and develop audio for a living) there is no such thing as "upscaling" in an HRTF. HRTF's are not creating channels or playing with bit-rates, etc...they are effectively changing the arrival times of audio between your ears to create a simulated surround effect. There are not "channels" being created. So there is no "by definition" to be had here.
If your definition of "upscaling" means we are creating a virtual surround effect that simulates multiple speakers then we might have an answer here. But I've been saying this in my explanations from my first response where I started talking about virtual surround so I'm not sure why there was an issue.
SO to put a final point on it:
1. We're not 100% sure what you are defining as "upscaling". It's not a common term used when referring to sound channels. That term would be "upmixing" and we're not doing that. We don't create "pseudo" channels from smaller channel sources (2.1 to 5.1, 5.1 to 7.1 etc...we don't do that). We take the channels that are being delivered by the content / game engine and then use those channels to render out the virtual surround effect (as does essentially any other device that is using "virtual surround").
2. HRTF's don't involve any sort of "upscaling". It's essentially time based algorithms.
and just to be super clear because I really don't like being accused of "misleading" people on this site
(Side note: Those that know me here know that I'm always straight forward and try to get answers as quickly as possible. We've listened and improved products STRAIGHT from Massdrop users requests. I value my reputation on this site and its users very much.)
3. The Katana is recognized as a 7.1 device in Windows. It will receive streams up to a 7.1 configuration. We then take those independent streams and apply our (proprietary) algorithms to these streams (which do use HRTF's amongst other things because we are not a simple codec but actually using an audio processor unlike the other products you have consistently mentioned...which allow the effect to be configured and customized to an extent) to create a simulated surround effect over speakers of the Katana.
This is of course assuming you want to have that effect applied. If not..you just turn it off in the interface or set it to the level that you prefer. Some people have preferred the ultra-wide setting (myself included) others like the Pro-gamers that are using this rig now have preferred the narrow setting since they like the narrower space that reminds them of headphone audio (which still has software based positional information like in Overwatch with Dolby Atmos for headphones).
And once again for good measure.
We think the Katana kicks ass. Maybe we're biased because we work for the company that manufacturers it. But that cannot and does not take away from the fact that we're proud of this piece of kit and think it has achieved the goal we set out to do which was deploy our audio processor in a slim minimalist form factor chassis (with some RGB bling) while delivering powerful and accurate audio. It's great if you got ultra-wide or a multi-monitor setup and don't have room for or don't want larger bookshelf speakers on your desktop.
We're stoked there are several users and reviewers that feel the same way we do about the Katana.
And again, I'm glad you have an audio solution you love. Good audio is important. Good audio makes a difference. Good audio makes people happy. Happy people is good.

Jcarry
13
Mar 17, 2017
DigitalRonynPulling out the big guns huh, that's oddly satisfying as I am a one man army against your literal army of audio engineers.
You still neglect to say that this is a 2.1 *Soundbar* with virtual 5.1/7.1 implentation. I was wrong in my understanding of how HRTF is enhancing this listeners end experience, that much I'll gladly admit. So to clerify, I understand you are not upscaling the audio the way I described it. So instead of scouring the archives of patents I'll ask you directly since you have an army at your disposal, How does your version(Your company is not listed on any patents that I can find for the use of HRTF as far as I can find, red flag IMO) of HRTF enhance the audio wave to correlate to the listener without virtual enhancement? If you say you are enhancing it without up/down mixing please clue me into how your audio processor does this. From my meager understanding of audio, If you have 4 speakers and imput a virtual sound to them in the form on 5.1 for example the processor scales the input to the speakers so the listener can hear everything from the 5.1 stream instead of 3/4 of the stream.
I've already admitted that I was wrong about part of this, and admitted you were wright about a few different aspects. Yet you still call your duck a goose. At the end of the day its a 2.1 soundbar with a proprietary audio processor, calling it a discrete audio solution is ridiculous, ALL soundbars are discrete audio solutions. Is yours smaller? yes Does that mean it's created an entirely new class for audio solutions? Hell no.
JcarryJcarry,
The only reason I called out the "big guns" was to make 100% sure that I was delivering correct information to you and anyone else who might be following the thread here and to see if I was missing anything. Please understand that. It's more important that I'm being accurate here and giving the right information than me personally be "right". I do get things wrong, when I do, I want to correct them and get them right especially in a case like this where people are following along might be considering a purchase.
Frankly, I appreciate your appreciation to investigate and look into how audio is really working. I wish more people had as large of an interest!
Please read back in the thread... I have never claimed the Katana was a discrete solution, in fact i said the opposite.
I noted a while back in the thread that of course you can't render 7.1 channels on a device that has fewer number of speakers without creating some sort of virtualization. Discreet solutions have 7 physical speakers (+ one subwoofer) for a 7.1 system. 5.1 systems 5 speakers (and a subwoofer) etc. etc. And as such you can place those speakers in physical space and audio plays for them.
What I've been saying is we're a 7.1 device that recognizes (up to) 7.1 streams and of course has to create that 7.1 sound field over the speaker configuration in the Katana (which is for all sense and purposes a 2.1 audio playback setup - 2 mids, 2 tweeters, and a subwoofer).
Our CMSS algorithm works for discreet systems as well as virtual ones.
By that I mean if we have 7 physical speakers we will create ADDITIONAL virtual channels as we move the audio around those speakers and our chipset processes in real-time the movement of that audio. This leads to a MUCH smoother surround experience versus a much more common "jump from one speaker to the next" effect that most PC speakers with a dumb codec will do. Think feathering versus abrubt crossfades.
This is also the difference between a movie theater with an IMAX (or other high end audio delivery system) versus a standard one. The more channels the more convincing the effect is going to be. They achieve the affect physically and we achieve it virtually.
On a side note...discreet systems might not always be the most accurate in audio either when rendering audio since it relies on the speakers to be placed physically in the right space and then audio comes from those sources. If you place those speakers in the wrong places (too far right or left, or forward or back, etc it can undermine the surround effect as well). A somewhat interesting benefit of a virtual system is that you have a much smaller set of configurations to take into account when customizing the algorithm for the configuration. In the case of Katana you can assume it's going to be directly in front of someone and as such you can tailor the alrgorithm to maximize the virtual effect for that configuration. Discreet however almost always will deliver the most "pronounced" spatial effect because the audio is being generated from a physical point in space. That's the reason why movie theaters spend the big bucks on making sure the speaker placements are calibrated perfectly...if they are not the "illusion" of surround gets diminished.
The scientists did me a favor and wrote up a brief on how our CMSS 3D tech works. This the tech that sits at the core of the Katana and how we are virtualizing surround (if it's turned on...important to note that this can be enabled and disabled. I've included that here as well. It does a great job of explaining how the process works.
As far as you disagreeing that this isn't a new class of hardware, we'll just have to agree to disagree there.
This is the only product on the market that... 1. Has a multi-core audio processor in a slimline chassis designed to fit under multi-monitor or wide screen monitor configurations 2. Has a tri-amplified design TIED to that multi-core audio processor 3. Has programmable RGB illumination (with advancing functionality and future integration with game titles)
If you want to think of it as a soundbar...that's fine it shares a design aesthetic with that type of device and certainly at first glance can be compared to one. In fact it would be easier to say it was one.
But we think and know it's something entirely new. It would have been EASY to make a sound bar. The engineering and problem solving that went into creating the Katana was not. It was a feat for our product team and in our minds calling it a "soundbar" would be a disservice.
I hope the attached document clarifies how the surround system works. Thanks for the interest!
search
Jcarry
13
Mar 17, 2017
DigitalRonynI have to hand it to you man, you are good. I'm impressed by the proffesionalism 100%, I definitely didn't start this on the best foot to say the least.
CMSS-3D is basically your version of HRTF that works with your processor/triamp combo to virtually create the 7.1/5.1 appearance that the PC/optical Inputs need to level themselves out for the best listening experience for the end user. Correct? I agree with your objection to calling it a regular soundbar after learning a bit more about it. niches tend to get lumped into generalized profiles quite often and lead to copious misunderstandings sprouting from said generalizations. Thank you for hashing this out , I honestly have a better outlook of the company after this.
Have you guys looked into a slightly longer option that would handle say maybe 4-6 2.5/3.5 speakers for a more physical accoustic experience?
JcarryHey Jcarry,
Not a problem at all. I'm glad I was able to get you the info you were looking for!
And you are correct CMSS-3D is essentially HRTF's with a lot of "secret sauce" in there that we've worked on over the past 30 years on the PC side of things. Up until the SBAxx-1 processor we were essentially locked in the PC but the SBAxx-1 was designed with being mobile in mind and is pretty much the summary of 3 decades of tech on a pretty darn efficient multi-core chip. Now we're able to deploy that tech in different form factors for different things.
It's funny you should mention the "bigger" version....we do indeed have something that's a labor of love from our Chairman and founder (and about 60 other engineers)..the Sonic Carrier...but it's another beast in another ballpark altogether. I think you'll get a kick out of the specs and concept though. You can take a look at those specs and feature set here -> http://sg.creative.com/soniccarrier/
We've demod the past couple years at CES as we've been developing and perfecting the product.
(I linked to our Singapore site as the US site is being updated currently)
Aside from that though ..the Katana is a form factor and concept we are absolutely committed to. That's all they'll let me say for now =) When I can say more..you bet I will be!
DigitalRonynExcuse me for butting in, but I’d like to try sharing a simple explanation of CMSS-3D and the “down mixing” that makes the Katana and other Virtual Surround Sound products by Creative, and what makes them special. This is for anyone that stumbles on this stickied topic.
Creative has made sound products and DSPs that use HRTF’s (Head Related Transfer Function, which describes the way sound is split by our faces and bounced around our ears) for longer than a patent would last, and have some unique functionality. Let’s say we feed a Katana a 16-bit, 96 kHz, 5.1 channel sound input. If you imagine a 5.1 speaker setup in the living room, there are fairly large gaps inbetween speakers. Especially useful with games, the Creative DSP (now SBAxx-1) uses the information about how sound volume pans between these speakers to essentially guess positions between speakers, creating a “ring” of sound rather than just 5 funnels of direction. A 7.1 signal creates more accurate directionality, but a complete “ring” is the goal. Now, to simulate that surround sound ring, the DSP essentially converts any given clock position around this ring and applies the time delay between when your left ear and right ear would hear it (we humans only have 2 “input” channels), and creates a down mix with the time delays “baked in,” for whatever the output device, such as the Katana or headphones connected to the Katana. The signal remains 16-bit 96 kHz through this entire process, so there’s no downsampling.
Because Creative’s Virtual Surround solution is based on the math of HRTFs from any direction, it was actually able to utilize FULL 3D sound output back in the day when games would output such data, so you could have sounds coming from above (like Dolby Atmos and DTS-X) and below (imagine trying to set up speakers below the floor in a home theater!). Bioshock and Borderlands 2 were really cool in 3D surround, and can you imagine 3D surround in flight sims, horror games, or adventure games? Fortunately, 3D audio is starting to make a comeback with some Virtual Reality titles, but 3D audio by itself is much more accessible for those with budget or motion sickness constraints, and does a great job of expanding the environment and immersion beyond the screen in front of you.
EvshrugGreat summary! Thanks for taking the time to write this up.
EvshrugEvshrug,
Do you mind posting this as a fresh post at the top of the discussions page? I think this is great info to the community but its hidden in this thread. If your willing to do so you could just leave out most of the first paragraph you wrote as if its a new post.
Cheers.
Tex-ArozziNo probs, I’ve been a big fan/advocate of surround DSPs for a long time.
EvshrugThank you Sir!
Thehalfghost
0
Dec 12, 2018
DigitalRonynWill this be good for a TV home movie setup ?
ThehalfghostThis was designed for a near-field effect. Meaning the optimal spot to listen from is a couple feet from the Katana, whereas a TV soundbar is designed to “throw” the treble further and the optimal listening spot is a couple yards away (couch distance). Personally, I think the Katana is plenty loud to hear from a distance, so it will work ok in a small room, but it won’t “fill the room” the way larger speakers will. The stereo separation is better up close, too. I’ve now had my Katana long enough that I need to change the battery in my remote. Looks easy enough to do, but I’ve been lazy so far (because I sit in front of it anyway). I need more “chill” in my life and the Katana fills that role, fitting under my screens and connecting to my PS4 (Optical with Dolby Bitstreaming), PC (USB as a 7.1 device), and iMac (Bluetooth). It’s nice that I can switch inputs without having to unplug anything, and it does sound way better than my iMac speakers and is great for chilling out. When I want to game with a little more competitive audio, I’m still pleasantly surprised with how well the Katana powers my 150 Ω and 120 Ω headphones, with the headphone surround processing.