DSX Backlit Keyboard - Massdrop Exclusive Discussions | Drop

Nov 19, 2015

olijuiceHi,
maybe this might help a bit: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61706.0 and https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/2fa8ok/cherry_mxwhite/ But i guess you know that google is your best friend here.
The mk itself is somehow another good example for "bad" or not existing communication with us, the community.
If you claim "This Massdrop exclusive features many of the Community’s favorite mechanical keyboard elements" (which is true), why don't you ask and talk to us first?

Paradigm84

238

Nov 19, 2015

olijuiceLike MX Greens (heavy MX Blues) with a soft, quiet click close to the actuation point.

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Nov 19, 2015

MakamiHey Makami,
Thanks for your post! You bring up a valid point that I'd love to discuss.
For some quick background, because I don't think we've talked before, I started the Mechanical Keyboard community on Massdrop ~3 years ago after hosting a Geekhack meet up at our first house in Menlo Park (Massdrop was run from a house for the first ~12 months) and now I run our Custom Products team.
In your post you said:
"If you claim "This Massdrop exclusive features many of the Community’s favorite mechanical keyboard elements" (which is true), why don't you ask and talk to us first?"
When a manufacturer works with Massdrop to create an exclusive product, we're able to give them valuable insights based on the 100,000+ mechanical keyboard transactions that have happened on Massdrop over the last couple years. In short, we can derive the "community's favorite mechanical keyboard elements" from our sales and poll data without having an explicit conversation about it elsewhere on the site.
While this is efficient, I think it'd be a way better experience if we could have some type of live product development process that folks like you could interact with. In reality, we do this on an ad-hoc basis with various community members and I can add you to that loop if you're interested, but building it into a part of the website, where these conversations can happen in an open place for everyone to see, is a goal we want to achieve.
Right now, the only tools at our disposal are our polling system and interest check threads. Both have flaws in terms of filtering.
Anyone can vote in a poll and all votes count the same. In the context of developing a product, this is clearly a problem because the vote of a mechanical keyboard expert is more valuable than the vote of someone who first learned about mech keys last week.
Interest check threads have the opposite problem. You can generally tell the legitimacy of participants via their post history, but the volume of participants will be in the 10's or 100's rather than the 1000's in a Massdrop poll.
Given that both of these solutions are flawed, we want to develop a new process and I'm curious if you have any thoughts on what we could do. Let me know your ideas, glad to discuss : )

Pinecone

Nov 19, 2015

WillFew points I'd like to counter argue:
1. "Right now, the only tools at our disposal are our polling system and interest check threads. Both have flaws in terms of filtering". You do realize that forums are VERY GOOD for interest checks and open discussion right? Maybe it's time MD got a proper forum going here, where you know, people can discuss AND buy the product at the same site instead of having to link 3rd party sites that some don't frequent.
2. "This Massdrop exclusive features many of the Community’s favorite mechanical keyboard elements". Sure you got the bells and whistles of mx clear offering and alu case, however, you can always swap switches, mod/paint the case however, and solder/desolder your own LEDs, but you can NEVER change the layout. Why this drop didn't offer a TKL option is baffling to say the least.
3. Not really a point to argue about, but I also don't understand the point of an alu case that also looks "cheap af" for a full sized keyboard. I honestly would've preferred Ducky's RGB features over having a stand-in blunt weapon, so you guys technically could've put up some Shine 5's or YOTG's.
Without a doubt this drop will still go through, however you would've gotten more units sold if there was either a TKL option or the only option offered was a TKL considering there are a decent number of those who buy dedicated numpads like myself.

e_l_tang

121

Nov 19, 2015

WillHey Will, I have a suggestion for a custom product. I am thinking of a replacement keycap set that consists of two Alt keys and one number pad 0 key that have a zero degree convex profile that is ergonomic for the thumbs. It would be really awesome if you could get it made! I am kind of getting tired of this:

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Nov 19, 2015

WillHi Will,
ty for your answer and I want to express my respect for the MD mk-team for making a lot of nice drops possible.
I'm a little bit older and had been raised technically with mks and buckling springs, have always had an addiction for mice, trackballs ... . Many times I've thought, I'm "weird", just to find out a couple of years ago, that I'm not alone with that, but never had been that active at geekhack or deskthority for example, because a lot of times enthusiasts of any kind tend to lose the right perspective in viewing at things (for me).
My interaction here at MD somehow happened by accident, I came here as a usual customer, looking at MD more like a store and bought my first mk, which broke and I got treated with an excellent support and met more and more helpful people. This changed my point of view about MD a lot, it became more and more a community with people doing business with heart and not only to fill their wallets.
Numbers do tell a lot and nothing, remembering the HHKB CNC Aluminum Case numbers haven't helped a lot at all, an open discussion before might have shown that people don't want a "legobrick", but still like the concept, just differently made.
MD needs a legit forum, knowledgebase and many times a lot better product descriptions.
Looking at current Ducky mks and their manuals I would guess this DSX mk is capable of a lot more things that are just not explained, but how am I supposed to know and find information about an exclusive product.
The postings/likes whatever someone has made doesn't count that much for me. If someone new is posting useful thoughts with logical thinking and not being irrational trolling that's helpful and fine by me.
Just today I had been thinking about a "poll": Tell me your dream mk, which is more to be discussed on a forumbase and not a poll. My dream for example would be a 60% plus f-row like the Noppoo Nano with modules: Navcluster, numpad, trackpad/ball ... which could be attached on any side of the base in any row I like or want, freedom of choice! Silenced Topre switches or Clears whatever. I don't want to discuss this somewhere else, because we're having a community here and manufacturers are looking and reading here too, MD is getting bigger and more and more important for manufacturers, but information/needs/wishes are hard to find and filter, lost in a lot of split postings all around product discussions.
I've thought many times, the word community is "misused" and doesn't reflect the correct situation and is more used to push people into a direction, to make them think, this is what your fellow massdropers want and like.
This should be enough for a first answer, but I've high hopes that you want to evolve and getting better.

Nov 19, 2015

e_l_tangHmm, could be good. Do me a favor first though, take off the 0 key, rotate it 180 degrees, put it back on. Problem solved?
Probably doesn't work as well for your ALT keys if they have legends though.

e_l_tang

121

Nov 20, 2015

WillMeh, I've tried that and a) it looks like that keycap is hanging over the edge of my keyboard, and b) my thumbnail starts hitting it instead. I'm just waiting for the day when one keycap manufacturer wakes up and actually puts some thought into their keycap designs …

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Nov 20, 2015

PineconeHey Pinecone,
Saw you responded, scrolled down to your post, saw your username, then your profile picture. I don't know what I was expecting, found it way funnier than I should have, but I'll gladly discuss with a pinecone.
1. Forum interest checks are good when you're looking at quantities in the 10s or 100s, but with full-on Massdrop Collaborations (different from exclusives like this product) we're talking about thousands of units. As an example, we've sold close to 10,000 units of the AKG x Massdrop K7XX since it's release last year. When you're trying to estimate demand on the sale of 1000s of units, interest check threads cease to be useful. For this product, it could have worked well, and once we start looking into the TKL (plenty of interest evidenced here) we'll probably run an interest check to see how well it works for something of this scale.
2. Why didn't we offer a TKL? Because Ducky wasn't prepared to manufacture a TKL of this type of keyboard until the full size was successful. Unlike a trip to BK, we can't always have it our way when working with manufacturers on small quantities.
3. Pretty clearly a subjective point. I'm sure there's a bunch of people who would have preferred RGBs over Aluminum, I'm sure there's a bunch of people who prefer apples to oranges. Thanks for letting us know your preference.
Thanks for your post, lemme know if there's anything else you want to discuss.
Best,

Nov 20, 2015

e_l_tangAh yea, it's tough depending on your keyboard, and the profile of the keycap. You're right though, it is a silly thing, hopefully we can make something to fit that need in the future. You're not the only one.

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e_l_tang

121

Nov 20, 2015

WillThanks. Ya gonna run an interest check?

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ZALHERA

843

Nov 20, 2015

WillHey Will,
I just wanted to put in my own thoughts on a forum. Regardless of whether or not forums are used to gain insight or feedback on some product design, I firmly believe Massdrop needs one.
Massdrop's value is not simply in the deals that can be had. I would argue that the greatest appeal of Massdrop is the community, based on personal experience. I like asking people in the discussion portion questions about the products, but I also found that sometimes there are things I want to discuss with someone that is not related to the product. For example, in the K7XX's first drop, there were questions about how does this pair do with this DAC, or this amp, or how does it compare to this other headphone, or that one. Yes, all these questions were about the K7XX, but at a certain point, it felt like it would have been a good opportunity to start a thread on DAC/amp synnergy with headphones.
But even if we say that the K7XX is an isolated case, and that not every product stirs enough discussion that gives way to a broader discussion of a different topic, how great would it be to be able to just get into a casual thread to hang out and chat with people with the same interests? Sure we can go to Reddit, but I hate Reddit's layout and format. Massdrop's web design is more preferrable personally.
Another point I have about having a forum over the discussion thread is the notification system, or rather the imperfections of our current notification system. It merges notifications for requested products, shipping notifications, drop updates, and discussion replies. More often than not, I've found replies burried under product-related updates, and I was never able to reply to a discussion thread until months after. Unless you are visiting the product page's discussion often, it is very easy to miss out on these based on my personal experience. Or if you comment on several product pages, would you visit each of those products just to check if someone replied? Why would you, aside from having spare time? If we can separate the discussion into a forum from the rest of the store portion of the website, I personally think it will be easier to keep up with conversation, as well as nurture a more healthy community where people are having conversations, not just posting and/or answering questions.
And the voting/polling section is a tad cluttered, I find. Rare are the polls with actual discussions, too.
TL;DR- message board pls, regardless of its use in developing exclusive products.
-Zal

Pinecone

Nov 20, 2015

WillHehe it happens pretty often with my picture/username. But yeah, just my 2 cents. I don't run a shipping warehouse so idk how everything works and possibly being salty about no TKL variety hahaha. And point 3 is entirely subjective haha.

Nov 20, 2015

WillGood morning,
regarding point 2, a little explanation, one or two sentences like that at the description page might work wonders for people to understand. That's community behaviour, get people involved, give them a little insight.
It's obvious, that MD can only sell what is given or manufacturers are willing to produce, therefore it's a shame that "big" companies are so lame and stagnant regarding evolution and that small groups of people are needed to make new things happen like Keybordio, Input Club or Ultimate Hacking Keyboard to name a few.
Every year a new Ducky with a new lightning effect, another year of the ... edition, same old, same old, but it seems to work.
Imagine this keyboard as a tkl and a corresponding extra numpad regarding materials, design ... . A Ducky numpad, well, might be to revolutinary, but maybe a lot more people might have been happy.
Have a nice day

Nov 20, 2015

MakamiHey Makami, I'll come back and edit this with a full response either today or tomorrow (headphone collab launches next Friday, lots to do between now and then) but I wanted you to know I'll give you a full response soon.
Awesome post btw, incredibly useful to hear your perspective, shared with everyone on our product team : ).

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Thothstopher

Nov 21, 2015

PineconeI'm mystified by the amount of complaining about the fact there isn't a TKL option. For goodness sakes, there are SO MANY TKL and 60% drops here for KB's and cases, What rarely gets a go is something for the folks that want something fullsize with an actual robust ALU case and proper cherry switch options. The only other duckies that fit that description are probably The Year of the Snake, and the Legend, neither which is still produced. As for RGB backlighting, those are incredibly thick on the ground right now, and not hard to find.
This is a limited edition, designed for massdrop, and it's different to other stuff on the market for a reason. You seem to want something well supplied by the existing market and castigate massdrop for not commissioning a KB with the same feature set as everything else. Which seems kinda pointless.
If I can scrape the cash together, I'll be getting this in a flash. It's the kind of thing I've been trying to find for ages.