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wild_one
236
Sep 11, 2014
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With 6 days left, I have this feeling we need about a month for this drop to really succeed. Considering how last I checked there were at least 70 interested members, this is somewhat baffling how little traction this drop has now.
gfd-92
1
Sep 11, 2014
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wild_oneIt's not much of a discount to begin with & not much of a discount to end with. I think that's what has people in a lack of motivation. You see the end price of the drop & it's not all that low. Especially when you factor in that they're trying to upsell us with the new M5 model which is still $200 more regardless of the drop price.
They should have waited for this drop to happen shortly after the M5 launches so that they could include user reviews of it. As of now no one knows how it will function compared to the M3 & that makes people like me (which the number of commits suggests is most of the people looking at this) not want to put my money down yet. That being said, i've ridden the M3 & I love it. Been wanting one for a few months since i've tried it. But the owner of it told me that he's never gotten further than 10 miles on it (about 175lb & 5'9").
They should have waited for this drop to happen shortly after the M5 launches so that they could include user reviews of it. As of now no one knows how it will function compared to the M3 & that makes people like me (which the number of commits suggests is most of the people looking at this) not want to put my money down yet. That being said, i've ridden the M3 & I love it. Been wanting one for a few months since i've tried it. But the owner of it told me that he's never gotten further than 10 miles on it (about 175lb & 5'9").
wild_one
236
Sep 12, 2014
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gfd-92If Ecoreco gave us their testing cycle to determine distance, it would make more sense, but I imagine the lack of range is probably due to the terrain and frequent stop/starts. Since there is no regenerative braking, all the power used to propel you is lost once you hit the brakes, so maybe they'll figure a way to do enable some energy capture in a future model.
EcoRecoScooter
18
EcoReco
Sep 12, 2014
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gfd-92Hi, gfd and all,
The stated range of up to 20 miles is for a 170lb rider riding on a flat ground at steady speed of 13MPH. If a heavier rider constantly reaches top speed, brakes frequently, and takes occasionally slopes, the range would be reduced to more modest 8-13 mile (depending on your weight and road conditions). It is fundamental laws of Physics that we can't avoid.
To check the range correctly, the user would need to charge the scooter fully (more than 4.5 hrs). The green light on the charger will light up around 85%, but you can continue to top it off. Each of the battery “bar” on the indicator means ~16% of the capacity Please note that you still have 16% of juice left when you first see the zero bar and blinking battery frame on the indicator. Some of the customers estimate the total range based on how the battery "bar" disappears, and as you can see, it could be very misleading and inaccurate.
We have sold quite a bit of M5 beta and the customers who have tried both definitely feel the difference. We got such overwhelmingly positive feedbacks that we felt confident such that we didn't make any change from M5 beta to M5 official except the packing and box arts update. BTW, M5 is retailed at $1250 at this moment on our website and other local dealers. Due to the high demands, we might even consider to increase the launch price because the upcoming batch of M5 is close to be sold out based on pre-orders alone.
The stated range of up to 20 miles is for a 170lb rider riding on a flat ground at steady speed of 13MPH. If a heavier rider constantly reaches top speed, brakes frequently, and takes occasionally slopes, the range would be reduced to more modest 8-13 mile (depending on your weight and road conditions). It is fundamental laws of Physics that we can't avoid.
To check the range correctly, the user would need to charge the scooter fully (more than 4.5 hrs). The green light on the charger will light up around 85%, but you can continue to top it off. Each of the battery “bar” on the indicator means ~16% of the capacity Please note that you still have 16% of juice left when you first see the zero bar and blinking battery frame on the indicator. Some of the customers estimate the total range based on how the battery "bar" disappears, and as you can see, it could be very misleading and inaccurate.
We have sold quite a bit of M5 beta and the customers who have tried both definitely feel the difference. We got such overwhelmingly positive feedbacks that we felt confident such that we didn't make any change from M5 beta to M5 official except the packing and box arts update. BTW, M5 is retailed at $1250 at this moment on our website and other local dealers. Due to the high demands, we might even consider to increase the launch price because the upcoming batch of M5 is close to be sold out based on pre-orders alone.
KenjiFox
16
Sep 16, 2014
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wild_oneActually the EcoReco scooter is the only version of this scooter that lacks regenerative brakes. The feature was intentionally removed from the scooter for the North American release model (EcoReco). The Patgear (parent model/ company) Egret One etc are the same scooter but have regen.
The battery was being damaged by high recharge currents. Lithium batteries can be discharged faster than they can be charged. In the case of these scooters with regen brakes, they were actually developing more charging current than they would use upon acceleration. As it stands, the regen feature needs to be tweaked to consider current state of charge and a limit applied dynamically based upon voltage temperature and other factors. This wasn't seen as a big enough issue to tackle since the creators believe that it doesn't extend range much, and that it is essentially just a marketing tool. However, the truth is that it DOES extend range greatly when used correctly. It won't help at all on a long continuous flat cruise though.
I for one will be adding it myself. I mostly want the chassis battery and motor. I can build my own controller with regen that interfaces with the trigger display.
The battery was being damaged by high recharge currents. Lithium batteries can be discharged faster than they can be charged. In the case of these scooters with regen brakes, they were actually developing more charging current than they would use upon acceleration. As it stands, the regen feature needs to be tweaked to consider current state of charge and a limit applied dynamically based upon voltage temperature and other factors. This wasn't seen as a big enough issue to tackle since the creators believe that it doesn't extend range much, and that it is essentially just a marketing tool. However, the truth is that it DOES extend range greatly when used correctly. It won't help at all on a long continuous flat cruise though.
I for one will be adding it myself. I mostly want the chassis battery and motor. I can build my own controller with regen that interfaces with the trigger display.
GeorgeW
3
Sep 16, 2014
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KenjiFoxDo you have a tutorial about how to add the regenerative braking feature in? I'm interested in this feature as well since I see comparable scooters do have them. I'm tempted to go for a Zoomair 2 if this drop does fail as it does have the feature, but it looks like it has an inferior battery that makes the range and top speed worse in comparison. However, other perks include a much lighter weight though and a possibly cheaper overall price thanks to the conversion from SGD. Shipping might be a pain though...
wild_one
236
Sep 17, 2014
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KenjiFoxIf that was the case, they could just have put in a current limiting charge, or perhaps use a huge cap to smooth it out. Unfortunately, I'm not well versed in EE so I've no clue how that would be done with their current constraints. Not including it probably made for a much simpler firmware, and considering how they aren't really considering a trade-in program for the M3 leads me to think I probably won't be going for the next version if they do go that route.
As is, this drop just might squeak in by tomorrow, with only 4 left to reach the lowest drop when I post this. Then I'll have to see about selling off my M3... any takers here? :)
As is, this drop just might squeak in by tomorrow, with only 4 left to reach the lowest drop when I post this. Then I'll have to see about selling off my M3... any takers here? :)
Megg
0
Sep 17, 2014
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wild_oneI'm not sure if this article answers your questions about regenerative braking, but I read it to mean that it would prevent or hinder "freewheeling". I don't know much about motors, so disregard if that's not actually true. If that is the case, then I would much prefer a scooter I'm able to kick around manually like the EcoReco, rather than recover a bit of charge.
https://sgscooters.wordpress.com/2014/05/13/a-lil-about-hub-motors-geared-vs-gearless-hub-motors/
https://sgscooters.wordpress.com/2014/05/13/a-lil-about-hub-motors-geared-vs-gearless-hub-motors/
wild_one
236
Sep 17, 2014
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MeggI understand it well enough, though I'm not so sure of the design of the hub motor in the M3/5 to say what type it is. I'd have to ride downhill again to know for sure, but I think I could hear something. Also, if it really could "freewheel" there really shouldn't need to be an electric cutoff while braking unless someone foolishly is accelerating while braking.
KenjiFox
16
Sep 17, 2014
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MeggNo, the regen feature doesn't harm the "freewheeling" aspect at all. The rear wheel is actually a brushless gearless hubmotor with rubber around it. There will always be a small amount of magnetic drag since the magnets are spinning around the coils. However, there is no mechanical drag at all, and this design has the lowest drag of any motor.
The way the regen works is; You kick off and accelerate to top speed. At this point you release the trigger half way, and the scooter captures the excess energy back to the batteries to slow you down to the half way speed. If you then let go of the trigger abruptly and completely you will coast or "freewheel" at that speed. Engaging the trigger again you will begin to accelerate from this point. So for example you needed to slow down as fast as possible without using the real brakes, you would release the trigger as close to zero as possible without actually letting it go completely (since that would result in coasting). This will engage the most powerful regen effect. Think of the trigger not as a throttle, but as a speed control device. If you kick off and pull the trigger slightly to go the pace of a brisk walk, but then start going down hill, the scooter will actually maintain the speed you set with the trigger by using whatever amount needed of regen to keep the speed there.
The GoMotorboard 1500x was the first scooter with this advanced speed control software. That scooter also had a tachometer disk so that it will also add throttle to maintain the speed you desire up hills too. I am not sure if the Patgear does that part, but the regen functioned the same way.
As for the questions of adding it back to the EcoReco model, you would need to buy a patgear speed control and swap it in. Possibly the trigger too, since the firmware was edited in that as well for this model. It may be that the regen function was only disabled in the throttle firmware itself, since I can't imagine they would have wanted to make a whole different speed control.
Unfortunately it isn't something you can change under the deck as a preference like the speed limiters or safe start feature.
The way the regen works is; You kick off and accelerate to top speed. At this point you release the trigger half way, and the scooter captures the excess energy back to the batteries to slow you down to the half way speed. If you then let go of the trigger abruptly and completely you will coast or "freewheel" at that speed. Engaging the trigger again you will begin to accelerate from this point. So for example you needed to slow down as fast as possible without using the real brakes, you would release the trigger as close to zero as possible without actually letting it go completely (since that would result in coasting). This will engage the most powerful regen effect. Think of the trigger not as a throttle, but as a speed control device. If you kick off and pull the trigger slightly to go the pace of a brisk walk, but then start going down hill, the scooter will actually maintain the speed you set with the trigger by using whatever amount needed of regen to keep the speed there.
The GoMotorboard 1500x was the first scooter with this advanced speed control software. That scooter also had a tachometer disk so that it will also add throttle to maintain the speed you desire up hills too. I am not sure if the Patgear does that part, but the regen functioned the same way.
As for the questions of adding it back to the EcoReco model, you would need to buy a patgear speed control and swap it in. Possibly the trigger too, since the firmware was edited in that as well for this model. It may be that the regen function was only disabled in the throttle firmware itself, since I can't imagine they would have wanted to make a whole different speed control.
Unfortunately it isn't something you can change under the deck as a preference like the speed limiters or safe start feature.
KenjiFox
16
Sep 17, 2014
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wild_oneBasically yeah the firmware would need to be modified, and possibly it needs the addition of a shunt for detecting incoming power from the motor. Hopefully the board was designed in the first place so that it could monitor reverse power flow with the main shunt. As it was, they didn't limit the regen current enough. You could tell when riding an original Patgear because as you released the throttle trigger to engage regen it actually had the capacity to slow down extremely quickly. Much more quickly than the acceleration of the scooter.
This incoming rush of current was damaging the batteries and causing a high return rate. People in America are more fickle about things like electric scooters in general, and one product failure can result in the complete collapse of a product here. We want to hate. Not only that but the average rider is much heavier here than in Taiwan. This means even more heavy use of regen down hills and more chances at battery damage.
While I completely understand the motive, I really truly do wish that they opted to perfect the regenerative braking rather than remove it though.
This incoming rush of current was damaging the batteries and causing a high return rate. People in America are more fickle about things like electric scooters in general, and one product failure can result in the complete collapse of a product here. We want to hate. Not only that but the average rider is much heavier here than in Taiwan. This means even more heavy use of regen down hills and more chances at battery damage.
While I completely understand the motive, I really truly do wish that they opted to perfect the regenerative braking rather than remove it though.
KenjiFox
16
Sep 17, 2014
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GeorgeWI will likely build a custom controller that suites my particular needs. However, one could simply buy an original Patgear speed control and swap that in. It may also need a Patgear trigger too, since I know the firmware was changed in that. Perhaps just to change it to MPH from KMH, or maybe the disabled the regen in the trigger and not the speed control. I don't have an EcoReco to disassemble and reverse engineer yet. Once I have one I will certainly come back and let everyone know the best method to bring this feature back. Oh, and safely so as not to hurt that batteries.
wild_one
236
Sep 17, 2014
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KenjiFoxHeh, if you can pull it off, let us know so we can do the same! I actually went and looked at that Egret One, so I imagine everything is baked into the controller, which one could buy if you were somewhere in Europe. Maybe even try the Taiwanese ODM...
KenjiFox
16
Sep 17, 2014
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wild_oneYou can easily purchase Patgear parts or Egret parts (same, with Patgear being original model) online. I would need to open up an EcoReco controller to see what's going on with the regen. I suspect everything was just disabled. Might be able to JTAG the thing and put it back.
EcoRecoScooter
18
EcoReco
Sep 17, 2014
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KenjiFoxHi, Kenji, thanks for sharing a lot of info. Just a friendly reminder. Open up the motor controller or any invasive modifications of original parts will void the warranty. It's cool to see enthusiasts to do great things on the scooters. However, it's not considered normal usage and we just can't guarantee the safety and product lifetime after that. Please understand. Thanks.
KenjiFox
16
Sep 17, 2014
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EcoRecoScooterAbsolutely, and I am glad you came here to mention that. I should have said so myself, but I figured it would be common knowledge. As for swapping to an original Patgear controller I would assume that wouldn't void the two year chassis warranty at least. I could see it voiding the 6 month battery one since after-all, that regen was the main issue with battery performance. I would like to pull and edit the firmware of the controller and trigger, but mostly for my own enjoyment and use. I intend to void my warranty thoroughly ;)
I build custom electric scooters a lot, and I love the platform in this case. So I will likely be making one into a hotrod with LiPo and much higher voltage. I want the original throttle to work, so I will be making a custom controller that can interface with it. Hopefully there isn't too much of a handshake between the two firmwares.
I build custom electric scooters a lot, and I love the platform in this case. So I will likely be making one into a hotrod with LiPo and much higher voltage. I want the original throttle to work, so I will be making a custom controller that can interface with it. Hopefully there isn't too much of a handshake between the two firmwares.
wild_one
236
Sep 17, 2014
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KenjiFoxI might just see about grabbing a Patgear throttle, just to see what it'll do. I imagine that unless the firmware is that specific in the motor controller, it should just work fine. Simplest place to disable any regen would probably be in the throttle, since you mentioned the way it worked shows it has those two modes.
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