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NewMDUser
35
Dec 6, 2018
I have been collecting watches (terrible thing to get into if you can avoid it) for a long time and have yet to see a genuine Swiss or German watch for under $1000. I think many are fooled into buying Swiss/ German names and businesses that are based there but do 100% manufacturing in China and source ETA movements AT BEST... if they're dodgy, they use Chinese clone ETA movements (as opposed to Swiss clones like Sellita). My cheapest German watch is a Sinn 556 on bracelet and that cost me $1200 or so in 2015. That's not even a chronograph. I think people who make claims that they can get a Swiss or German watch for around $500 are either naive and have been fooled or they are just full of shit and intend to mislead everyone else. BTW this chrono starts at $350 which is a price that even mushroom brands slapping in fake ST-19 movements can barely match (those watches are built poorly and QC is hit and miss). At least with these Fiytas, one gets a more unique design and OEM product rather than say an Alpha Speedmaster/ Daytona design knock-off. For $350 for the stainless version, it's quality is considerable. The cheapest modern Japanese chronograph is a Seiko 8R series movement used in the 2015 introduced Presage line of chronos. That one came out at a price of over $2000 despite that being an entry level mechanical chrono in Seiko's modern lineup. The Grand Seikos are well over this price. Russian's used to have the Strela watch based off a domesticated Swiss Venus 150 movement. That is no longer acquirable and modern Strelas have had their name rights bought by some businessmen and they manufacture the new Strelas in God knows where using a mix of ST-19 and a Valjoux based Russian assembled movement sans column wheel. And guess the price for those? Yep over $600 online. The only affordable path for mech chrono is vintage (rare find and usually needs a few hundred in servicing) and Chinese ST-19 based watches (legit ones from Sea-gull and fake ones from random factories). But then there is THIS! Don't go in expecting $2500 German made Damasko chronograph quality if you're paying $350. Don't get angry. If one can afford the expensive stuff, just do it and live your life. If one wishes to spend little, expect dodgy QC and cost cutting. There ain't a free lunch but cheap labour does offset the price-quality ratio somewhat. To each their own means and wishes. Free market out here. Paying relatively high prices doesn't guarantee anything these days either. My Speedmaster's pusher got jammed into the engage position when it was luckily under warranty. Tag Heuer 7750 based movement gets jammed every time I use the chrono function. $600 for full overhaul and case touch up. Only guarantee is paying >$10,000 for high horology pieces from manufacturers that are guaranteed to deliver good service. But then again one pays thousands for an overhaul of those pieces. Best thing is to avoid chronos and go with 2824 based movements or similarly simple movements. But then you have a non-complication watch and maybe some are seeking exactly a chrono. I reckon the best bet is to go with a Damasko or Sinn 7750 chrono and just spend that extra cash if one is after such a thing but many of us are looking for a beater chrono and one that is relatively inexpensive and in the chrono world, downright cheap as chips. BTW I opened my Fiyta stainless version up and the movement is as expected, assembled in dirty conditions with obvious signs of debris. I would wager the oiling is poorly done if bothered at all but for $350 even Chinese factories cannot include these "high standards" steps. Maybe if they charged more than can factor this in and deliver a still affordable albeit higher quality product. But then they won't made a dime because of all the gasping "WHAT?! Made in China for $1000!!!!" crowd lol so guess they're forced to cut corners and go for the low end of the market which is 99% of the global population.
victor2014
22
Dec 6, 2018
NewMDUser>I have been collecting watches (terrible thing to get into if you can avoid it) for a long time and have yet to see a genuine Swiss or German watch for under $1000. I was bitten by the same bug about 30 years ago. > have yet to see a genuine Swiss or German watch for under $1000... >I think people who make claims that they can get a Swiss or German watch for around $500 are either naive and have been fooled or they are just full of shit and intend to mislead everyone else... Wrong, I have seen plenty, the last one purchased was Mido Chronometer grade eta 2836 for about $500. >At least with these Fiytas, one gets a more unique design and OEM product rather than say an Alpha Speedmaster/ Daytona design knock-off. Agree, the chinese market is full of fakes, but with Fiytas all I have seen were original, not assembled in the kitchen, they have local connections, and I guess know what they are doing, it is a serious company and do care about QA (imfo) >Only guarantee is paying >$10,000 for high horology pieces from manufacturers that are guaranteed to deliver good service.  Wrong, I have plenty of nice watches in $1k-5k range, with very little problems, but of course you need to do your home work and be smart in your decisions > Best thing is to avoid chronos and go with 2824 based movements or similarly simple movements.  Wrong again, eta 7750 is a wonderful chrono movement, about the same reliability as 2824, which is excellent. I have probably about 20 of those, no problems have seen, unless you treat them bad, like date reset at the wrong time, which is well known requirement >BTW I opened my Fiyta stainless version up and the movement is as expected, assembled in dirty conditions with obvious signs of debris. I would wager the oiling is poorly done if bothered at all but for $350 even Chinese factories cannot include  That is why I would stay from $350 version, but I have Mars version with no problem, performing close to COSC >market which is 99% of the global population It is significant overestimate, unless you understand "global " differently
NewMDUser
35
Dec 6, 2018
victor2014Yeah there are occasional bargains online or from Greg market dealers for less well known swiss names. Swatch group products often give the beat value in the lower end. That mido is not a chrono. In the context of chronos this 350 is beyond cheap. And that mido has all its non movement components made in China now with only movement being swiss and assembled there to qualify for swiss made title. Same goes for many haniltobs and tissots etc. My post was directed at chronographs. How it is impossible o source an entirely swiss one like a tag heuer or longines chrono for less than $1000 new. But three handed ones you can find them available grey market for much less and if one wishes to believe in that it's all swiss made they are welcomed to. Insiders and collectors know better. All lower end swatch have major components made around the world now and that's fine as long as the movement is swiss tbh. For the fiytas, if mine has a dirtyish movement you can bet they all do. They will not have more than one assembly line and process for one movement. They are all sourced from shanghai watch factory and slapped into the fiyta cases. From the lowest non limited stainless to most expensive will be the same.
victor2014
22
Dec 7, 2018
NewMDUser>Yeah there are occasional bargains online or from Greg market dealers for less well known swiss names. You can call it occasional bargains if you like, but that is what people pay >entirely swiss one like a tag heuer or longines chrono  Are modern tags and longines 100% swiss made? if you have the proof it would be interesting to clarify. >if mine has a dirtyish movement you can bet they all do. They will not have more than one assembly line and process for one movement. They are all sourced from shanghai watch factory and slapped into the fiyta cases. From the lowest non limited stainless to most expensive will be the same. Again, if they supply parts for swatch, you think they can not assemble it own 3LZF2. How do you know they have just one line? Did you have a chance to visit Shanghai Factory? I have seen Tourbillon they made, it is not shabby.
NewMDUser
35
Dec 7, 2018
victor2014I have seen photos of other people visiting. Shanghai watch factory conditions are nowhere near as clean and modern as seagull for instance. They do make tourbillons and dual tourbillons but those are their super high end pieces where extra care is taken. Having said that, those high end movements are probably made in the same rooms and the only extra care taken would be from the watchmakers wearing gloves rather than leave their fingerprints everywhere. It is what it is and this watch is $350 which is a price that is untouchable for mechanical chronograph, "Swiss" or otherwise. Let's refrain from comparing $500 mido "Swiss" three hand watches from $350 chronographs. Tag and longines both have assembly facilities in switErlabd even though I bet many bracelet parts for most of their line up is now made in Shenzhen or Hong Kong. Nevertheless tag and longines are both bigger money makers , more historied, and more expensive than pretend swiss watches like today's modern zeno, enicar, certina etc. and so have the means and reasons to do nost of the work in switzerlabd. Sure those other brands were at some point in history actually swiss but no longer. Also brands like laco using miyotas and assembled in southern China van hardly be considered German anymore. Not saying they're bad watches or not worth buying at all though. Just lets not continue fooling ourselves and each other, real swiss if real expensive. Mist of the sub $1000 are simply not swiss. Some brands like mido may have half their models assembled entirely in switErlabd using variously sourced parts but all the low end cheaper stuff on deal sites are Chinese made nowadays.
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victor2014
22
Dec 7, 2018
NewMDUser>Let's refrain from comparing $500 mido "Swiss" three hand watches from $350 chronographs Fine >tag and longines are both bigger money makers > more historied, and more expensive than pretend swiss watches I assume that you know that they all are just brands, that belong to swatch, or  lvmh, the same as mido. Honestly, I do not see much historical connections with what longines was in its best days, the same with others. That is why my interest as collector is in early 20 century watches. The time is different now, and it seems they all playing by the same business rules. More expensive, may be, but the money go to advertisement, the quality does not match the bill (imho). >I have seen photos of other people visiting. Shanghai watch factory conditions are nowhere near as clean and modern as seagull for instance. Most likely I have seen those photo as well (on the same forums). My other sources are my chinese friends. I know the history of Fiyta - Shanghai Watch Factory relations from them mostly. So I believe Fiyta is special, they select and modify the movement specifically for Fiyta, not just "slapped into the fiyta cases" as you mentioned. QA is a problem of course, like in many other chinese products, so I would stay away from cheap $350 version. But the Mars version I got seems to have very little issues you mentioned. I opened and inspected it with disassembling. Also I did pretty long testing both on my microset, and long term timing similar to cosc. As mentioned before I am very happy with results, the quality more than matches the bill. Total I have about 10 chinese chronographs, mostly venus 175 based, but also 3LZF2. Tested all of them, and like what I see. So make your judgement.
victor2014
22
Dec 7, 2018
victor2014Sorry, my mistyping, Fiyta Mars watch was inspected without disassembling the movement
NewMDUser
35
Dec 7, 2018
victor2014Same with me. I've mostly collected 50s 60s era Swiss and Japanese watches. Few of my modern pieces are either inexpensive Chinese mechanicals from Sea-gull and Beijing and so-called tool watches/ sport watches; Tag Link, Sinn 556, Omega Speedmaster, Ball Engineer, Damasko chrono, and various Seikos and Vostoks. 50s and 60s is the golden era of Swiss watchmaking, not counting the independents and "high horology" manufacturers. There is little connection between Longines of the 50s and Longines today... same goes for Heuers and Tag Heuers. All I'm saying there is that those brands are significant money makers for their respective groups and they do have Swiss assembly plants and in-house watchmakers. Almost all their parts are assembled in Switzerland maybe from imported components but this is in contrast to having most of the processes done in China for cheaper models of brands like Mido. I'm confident Ball watches does exactly the same. They have been very dodgy with respect to where the get bracelets and cases made and assembled. If you look at their address, it is one tiny building in Switzerland, just enough to run a marketing and brand managing office with accountants and perhaps designers. There is zero space for a single factory floor. Contrast it to even another "budget" swiss maker, Frederique Constant which has at least one large modern factory in Switzerland. The point is, Swiss law has made it easy for brands to seem like they are swiss. If these laws were like the qualifications for "Made in USA", there would be no need for things like Geneva Seal and its equivalents which all the high end makers tout. Reason for doing so is because they and all the collectors and purists understand that those millions of "Made in Switzerland" pieces are really eroding the association with quality, or rather, high horology art like all the chamfering and striping they hold in such high regard. I agree that the movement and the watch overall is insanely good quality for $350. I'm honestly blown away. I've been using it and abusing it in the last two months and it performs and delivers. Now it's worn in, it is running +10 seconds/ day CONSISTENT regardless of temperature, water, position, use, and shocks. Use the chrono function on and off non-stop at work and have turned the bezel several hundred rotations by now. It's only downfalls would be; cheap bezel construction which is to be expected at this price, poor crown threading making the screw in experience dissatisfying, and rubbish quality hex key screws for the caseback. They should have just spent $10 more per screw to get higher quality ones but these are the cost cutting measures I'm referring to. On the whole, the overall watch I'm still blown away by which is why I'm considering getting a second. I am willing to bet there will be no difference in construction and material quality between the various models. The price hike is owing to the "limited" edition title, not because they have a higher standard they make them to. I have two of those ST-19 watches (a HKed 1963 from WatchUnique so basically not affiliated with Sea-gull at all) and a Sea-gull original M199s. The quality difference is self-evident and it convinces me that those factories making ST-19s are mostly fakes and fake movements. Many fake Sea-gulls around as well if you research it. The original product from the actual factory is obvious when you can compare them. Nevertheless, that 1963 is a looker and it still runs and functions perfectly despite having what I think is a fake ST-19. That chronograph was about $200 when I bought it IIRC.
NewMDUser
35
Dec 7, 2018
NewMDUserI've taken the back off and there are two seals on mine. No Faraday cage like in original 2009 version of the Fiyta mechanical chrono space watch. So these newest models are lower quality for sure. The ones that came out between 2008 and 2012 actually had an anti-magnetic cover under the caseback. The two O-rings seem like they can easily offer over 100m but I suppose the chrono buttons are where water could most likely be introduced into case especially when just after drying the watch, there is always some water collected under the pushers. Suppose they only gave it 50m rating for this reasons because too many dumbasses out there. Shutting the case was difficult because the O-ring was hard to get back into place and I wouldn't over tighten the screws when anyone does reshut the case because I doubt the quality of the Hex key. They all look like they've already been deformed for considerable torsion which cannot be the case for brand new ones. Seriously cut stupid corners here Fiyta. The movement itself resembles any usual 7750 variant and mine had two obvious fingerprint marks. Without even using a loupe, there was plenty of obvious signs of debris, indicating careless assembly or transporting. But a basic grade ETA or Sellita 7750 cannot be bought these days for even $350 so I'd be a true whiner for complaining about this. Just trying to inform others and give potential buyers some expectations. I don't think the 3LZF2 in this condition will run accurately and consistently for all that long without a complete careful overhaul. So if anyone plans on using it daily for a long time, please consider finding a trustworthy and competent watchmaker for a complete overhaul. Spend that extra $300 or so for long term reliability and longevity. Would be like changing the oil in your engine. Needs to be done particularly given the lax treatment from the factory. Unfortunately 90% of watchmakers fake doing the actual work and if you give them a working piece, they keep it for about three weeks and hand it back to you without even opening it up, while telling you they performed a full service. Believe me when I say this. Watchmakers these days are some of the dodgiest tradesman out there... just below car mechanics. Hard to find an honest one these days and I've gone through about 5 of them who have each disappointed me and proven how dishonest some of them are.
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victor2014
22
Dec 8, 2018
NewMDUser>Same with me. I've mostly collected 50s 60s era Swiss and Japanese watches.  I guess we are on the same boat :) > I have two of those ST-19 watches (a HKed 1963 from WatchUnique .. I know WatchUnique enough, imho not a good source. The chinese market is just polluted with fakes. Again imho, Fiyata is two notches above as a source, of course if Massdrop does the business directly with Fiyta . >The movement itself resembles any usual 7750 variant I thought you know 3LZF2, basically it is the best 7750 clone, auto wind is done differently and better vs eta.
NewMDUser
35
Dec 8, 2018
victor2014I know about that assertion started by someone on Watchuseek IIRC. Won't surprise me if true. The old ETA designs have weak auto-winding mechanism, most cannot handle manual winding stresses, and have relatively poor winding efficiency compared to Seiko's magic lever system and its copies in IWC's pellaton and many Chinese watches. The auto-winding in almost all modern Chinese automatics are quite good designs e.g. the adoption of Seiko's magic lever and VC's uni-directional system in ST-25 movements. So the winding design improvement comes at no surprise at all. What I am going to insist on is the relatively poor assembly quality of the Shanghai chrono movement used in this Fiyta. At least this has been true for mine. I haven't opened all of them up but it's reasonable to assume they assemble all of them using more or less the same procedures. If your's has an absence of fingerprint marks and debris, you may have gotten a lucky one or maybe mine was just rushed through assembly. So while it may be the best 7750 clone in design out there (especially for the money), its execution should be improved to give it justice. I would have happily paid doubt at $700 if they made the movement carefully and used higher quality screws and did a better job with the case threading for the crown. But I guess there's already people complaining about a $500 Chinese watch so I suppose they have to cut corners in certain places to make it purchasable at this price. Know that quality will take a hit. The nearest "Swiss" automatic chronograph is probably from Hamilton at around $750 for online discounted prices. And those use hopelessly crap cases and just come with a cheap $15 strap.
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victor2014
22
Dec 9, 2018
NewMDUser>... So the winding design improvement comes at no surprise at all. I was surprised to know what they did. You probably know GP gyrotron of 60x. They did similar to GP 31.7 which is impressive. >What I am going to insist  No need to insist, we trust your evidence Overall it is a shame to sell 7750 based watches as luxury imho, the movement was designed as a cheap high volume replacement. It is good, robust, refined after many years, but not luxury. So 3LZF2 modification make sense, kind of makes it a notch better.
victor2014
22
Dec 9, 2018
victor2014Of course I mean auto wind modification
RomanArts0325
33
Feb 15, 2019
NewMDUserIf you cant buy a swiss/German watch for under a $1000, what can you say about steinhart watches.
Glen8
671
Apr 30, 2019
NewMDUserYou have the air of a snooty know it all, and I find your statements ridiculous. As if Shanghai watch Factory would have any trouble assembling in a 'clean room' or making a clean room for their movement assembly, this is a huge watchmaker with mor than one factory btw, and the vast majority of Swiss movements purchase the cores of their movements from Chinese factories just like this one, a well known fact of the 'Swiss' watch industry, it isn't that hard to make an air filtration system. You actually said the only upgrade on their tourbillons in production is they might wear gloves to not to get fingerprints all over everything, as if they DON't wear gloves on their other pieces? Your ridiculous post makes every other post you have made suspect. "The least expensive watch I own is $1300" What kind of person would say something like that (I can give you some clues if you like)
RayF
22210
May 10, 2019
NewMDUserSo where do you come down on Steinhart value/price and your Swiss/German comment?
Tatsnguns
66
May 11, 2019
NewMDUserOne word ... steinhart. .. there now that silliness has been addressed. . Now get back to late hours as the home sleeps peacefully NOT knowing that dad was saying he just needed his email and will be right back ... don't even put the movie on pause . As he opens the website quickly he misspoke on all of can't get a swiss made watch. Go check and enjoy. Let us know when you get back . quickly
RayF
22210
May 11, 2019
TatsngunsI was thinking along those same lines, but being the shy, retiring, wallflower-ish sort of guy that I am, I try to avoid confrontational comments whenever possible ;- )
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NewMDUser
35
Sep 24, 2019
TatsngunsFor all the Steinhardt comments. Yes I agree it's fine value. I have a GMT ocean from Steinhardt. It's value blows almost all the other guys out of the water. It's a rare exception though wouldn't you all agree? Also Steinhardt's cases aren't as good and their bezels ditto. I can imagine many of their sources components are Chinese. Nothing wrong with that but you don't get Swiss for five hundred bucks. The movements are no doubt Swiss and the watches and assembled there but I dare say all the case and bracelets should be Chinese for this money. Whatever they are, they can't compare with the big names.
RayF
22210
Sep 24, 2019
NewMDUser You guys should really switch to decaf—just say’n.
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