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Showing 1 of 90 conversations about:
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psiclone
405
Jul 2, 2018
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I see 19 sold at $20 each. That's $380, and it may make the artist money, but honestly you'll make much more at a much lower price point. I'm not saying don't value your own work, but $19 per keycap is still...well...
smallbit
1328
Jul 2, 2018
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psicloneOn average keycaps run between 30-45 bucks. This is rather on the low end in terms of manufacturing difficulty so it is priced a bit cheaper than average already. Keep in mind most custom caps on Massdrop are produced in extremely low production numbers. Some caps there aren't even 1000 of. This cap, there could easily be 10k of due to it's aforementioned ease of manufacturing. BKD is a good creator of artisan caps for an example of manufacturing differences.
That in mind, a year ago, a custom cap could have ranged up to 250-500 bucks each on ebay.
That in mind, a year ago, a custom cap could have ranged up to 250-500 bucks each on ebay.
psiclone
405
Jul 2, 2018
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smallbitFor a 61 key keyboard, that's about $1100+. Granted, you're not as likely to fill one with this kind of thing, but my point is that the price is still higher than what one could sell it for for a greater profit.
Keth
760
Jul 2, 2018
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psicloneDo you know how long these take to make, the cost of materials, molds, or labor if made by more than an individual?
People rarely want to pay what things are worth, automatic watches are a great example of this, they just don't understand the cost to manufacture. Now add to that the fact that it's a luxury item, a limited run, and artistic in nature. I have watches and keycaps that could be sold for more than double what I paid for them due to demand and scarcity, and the fact that an individual can't easily replicate them.
People rarely want to pay what things are worth, automatic watches are a great example of this, they just don't understand the cost to manufacture. Now add to that the fact that it's a luxury item, a limited run, and artistic in nature. I have watches and keycaps that could be sold for more than double what I paid for them due to demand and scarcity, and the fact that an individual can't easily replicate them.
Data
2004
Data
Jul 2, 2018
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psicloneThat's not how artisans work. Do a little more research. In fact, $20 is nearly the bottom of the price range for artisan caps. They aren't manufactured in sufficient quantities to justify a price break, nor are they meant to cover an entire keyboard.
psiclone
405
Jul 2, 2018
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DataOK, I'll play. How much did it cost to make one of this particular keycap? What I do know is how much effort and how long it takes for me to make the kind of money it would cost to buy 1 keycap. I would venture a guess there would be more customers that would buy 2-4 of these at $20 than would buy 1 at $20 and that sales would be more profitable.
Data
2004
Data
Jul 2, 2018
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psicloneI think you're missing that this is a short-run luxury/novelty item and not a mass-produced commercial product. Economies of scale do not apply here.
boolean-julien
257
Jul 2, 2018
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psicloneResin caps are usually made by hand by one to a few people at most, since scaling it up to a huge manufacturing operation would require much more demand for these than what currently exists. The price point is like this so that an artisan can hand-make a reasonable number of caps for a reasonable profit margin.
tarnation
14
Jul 2, 2018
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psicloneValue is subjective for every individual. I would assume this website has enthusiasts that are versed in the Artisan Keycap trade, and those who are would know that such keycaps like these are relatively cheap. While I do not agree with you, I can see that in a general consumer audience perspective your assumption seems safe. However, as there are many people that would pay much more for other artisan keycaps, worrying about a $20 drop seems... trivial. The keycap price (relative to other artisan prices) could be quite salient to artisan fans. If you scour places like r/Mechmarket you may see a few examples on keycap prices. Cheers on letting your opinion be heard!
KevKev
85
Jul 2, 2018
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smallbitI'm seconding your response, but to anyone else reading, I think psiclone is a troll.
$20 for one keycap could be expensive, but I didn't think it was outrageous. So, I was curious and I took a look at his comment history and, well, 95% of it is just pointless comments bashing on the price of various hobbies. He has some bashing on audiophiles, and lots bashing on anything artisan.
I do like how psiclone keeps writing in his comments, "time is money", yet uses a ton of his time writing about how expensive artisan keycaps (or anything else particularly rare in a hobby) are.
$20 for one keycap could be expensive, but I didn't think it was outrageous. So, I was curious and I took a look at his comment history and, well, 95% of it is just pointless comments bashing on the price of various hobbies. He has some bashing on audiophiles, and lots bashing on anything artisan.
I do like how psiclone keeps writing in his comments, "time is money", yet uses a ton of his time writing about how expensive artisan keycaps (or anything else particularly rare in a hobby) are.
psiclone
405
Jul 3, 2018
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KevKevSo your thought is to personally insult me for having an opinion about the price of a product?
Look, you're welcome to disagree, but personally insulting people isn't OK...not to mention how hypocritical you're being considering this: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/mini-iceland-wood-resin-artisan-keycaps/talk/1932351 <--- see?...easy to take things out of context and make people out to be villains.
The difference between me and you is I don't say things like this: Person X "is a troll" and Person X "just goes around complaining about the price and inciting arguments" Your need to go that far means you're personally offended by my comment that lowering the price on a product would likely sell more shows you may be in need of some personal growth. Your plan to insult me here does what for you, exactly?
I guess you just gloss over the good feedback I've also provided to artisan keycap manufacturers.
Answer me this, where in any of those threads or even this one did I personally insult anyone or bash the product? There's lots of room to disagree politely about the price of a product or the subjective quality of it.
Look, you're welcome to disagree, but personally insulting people isn't OK...not to mention how hypocritical you're being considering this: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/mini-iceland-wood-resin-artisan-keycaps/talk/1932351 <--- see?...easy to take things out of context and make people out to be villains.
The difference between me and you is I don't say things like this: Person X "is a troll" and Person X "just goes around complaining about the price and inciting arguments" Your need to go that far means you're personally offended by my comment that lowering the price on a product would likely sell more shows you may be in need of some personal growth. Your plan to insult me here does what for you, exactly?
I guess you just gloss over the good feedback I've also provided to artisan keycap manufacturers.
Answer me this, where in any of those threads or even this one did I personally insult anyone or bash the product? There's lots of room to disagree politely about the price of a product or the subjective quality of it.
smallbit
1328
Jul 3, 2018
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psiclonekevkev definitely displayed an accurate pattern though... ANSWER ME THIS BADMAN, NAME SOMETHING THAT WHEN CREATED WITH LOVE, HAS BEAUTY ON IT'S SURFACE, HAS A DARK HOLE IN IT'S BOTTOM, AND CAN ONLY BE FOUND EVERYWHERE ON THE PLANET?
psiclone
405
Jul 3, 2018
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smallbitVery mature. Consider your own post here, and then you can answer the same question I posed to him.
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/bubble-keys-resin-humpback-whale-artisan-keycap/talk/2016111
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/bubble-keys-resin-humpback-whale-artisan-keycap/talk/2016111
BlueCrowned
5305
Jul 3, 2018
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psicloneYou do this on EVERY artisan drop. If you don't like artisans why do you even look at them? Go look at things you actually want to buy.
MaxwellDemonic
838
Jul 3, 2018
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psicloneSo, from what I can glean from your history, artisan keycaps aren't for you. The market is what the market is. Some of the sculpts my friends make sell for $80+ after painting because that's what the market will pay for hand-crafted artisan quality vinyl toys. Obviously there are people that will say "Why the hell would anyone pay $80 for a simple toy with basic joints, made out of plastic?!". They have the option of walking away because it's not worth it to them. What people are willing to pay for a toy, a key cap, a pocket knife, or anything else is between them and their wallets (and partners, but that's beside the point for this discussion).
You also seem to be missing one rather large point. Artisans typically perform their art because they like it. The idea of someone enjoying the fruits of their labor is a reward all it's own. Once again, I have several sculpts my friends have made purely so I can support their art and help them keep doing something they love.
The question is simple, why does it bother you so much?
You also seem to be missing one rather large point. Artisans typically perform their art because they like it. The idea of someone enjoying the fruits of their labor is a reward all it's own. Once again, I have several sculpts my friends have made purely so I can support their art and help them keep doing something they love.
The question is simple, why does it bother you so much?
psiclone
405
Jul 3, 2018
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MaxwellDemonicHow do you get that from this?
"I see 19 sold at $20 each. That's $380, and it may make the artist money, but honestly you'll make much more at a much lower price point. I'm not saying don't value your own work, but $19 per keycap is still...well... "
"I see 19 sold at $20 each. That's $380, and it may make the artist money, but honestly you'll make much more at a much lower price point. I'm not saying don't value your own work, but $19 per keycap is still...well... "
psiclone
405
Jul 3, 2018
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BlueCrownedYour point? You could also ignore my feedback (which is obviously not intended for you) and move on, but here you are.
MaxwellDemonic
838
Jul 3, 2018
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psicloneI read the whole thread. It's not a simple equation of "Drop price, get more buyers, make more caps, make more money". That's not typically how artisan products / economies work. These are not something that have mass market appeal.
Let's look at something like Holt Blades & Grimsmo Knives in comparison. They could drop their standards, remove customization elements, spend all day and night working to produce 200 good knives at a lower price... or they could keep their high prices, allow their customers to customize the product the way they want it, provide a higher quality control, and produce 50 excellent knives. People buy their knives because they are exceptional. To give anything less than exceptional quality would be unacceptable in their eyes.
This is the divide between mass production and artisan quality. So unless your doing their finances, I suggest you leave their financial decisions to them.
Let's look at something like Holt Blades & Grimsmo Knives in comparison. They could drop their standards, remove customization elements, spend all day and night working to produce 200 good knives at a lower price... or they could keep their high prices, allow their customers to customize the product the way they want it, provide a higher quality control, and produce 50 excellent knives. People buy their knives because they are exceptional. To give anything less than exceptional quality would be unacceptable in their eyes.
This is the divide between mass production and artisan quality. So unless your doing their finances, I suggest you leave their financial decisions to them.
KevKev
85
Jul 3, 2018
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psiclone“Time is money”, psiclone. Stop wasting your own time typing up these huge replies and starting long threads about prices (that aren’t even that absurd) on rare drops meant for hobbiests. I’m sure you can do something much more productive than get upset at prices (like make money, as you keep repeating).
psiclone
405
Jul 3, 2018
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MaxwellDemonicHow much DOES this particular item cost to make in both time and money? No one here has actually answered that question.
Let me offer this. Recent artisan keycaps here on Massdrop have gotten sent with some quality control issues to customers who paid the asking price. You're point is that reducing the price lowers the quality. That's not apparently true if what I just pointed out exists, and there are quite a few threads that have noted this problem.
For what it's worth, I hope that you find what you're looking for at a reasonable price and at good quality.
Let me offer this. Recent artisan keycaps here on Massdrop have gotten sent with some quality control issues to customers who paid the asking price. You're point is that reducing the price lowers the quality. That's not apparently true if what I just pointed out exists, and there are quite a few threads that have noted this problem.
For what it's worth, I hope that you find what you're looking for at a reasonable price and at good quality.
MaxwellDemonic
838
Jul 3, 2018
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psicloneFuck if I know, I'm not making the product.
I'm guessing it's probably maybe $5 or $6 in materials, and a couple of hours per cap. Again, how does that affect you? What is the root of your grievance?
I'm guessing it's probably maybe $5 or $6 in materials, and a couple of hours per cap. Again, how does that affect you? What is the root of your grievance?
psiclone
405
Jul 3, 2018
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MaxwellDemonicThis affects me no more than the thread affects you. I would venture the cost is probably a bit less than $5-$6, excluding the time factor, but I suppose we'll just have to see this from different angles.
BlueCrowned
5305
Jul 3, 2018
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MaxwellDemonicWell if you're paying the artist a meager $10/hour then this is more than reasonable a price honestly
psiclone
405
Jul 3, 2018
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BlueCrownedI would pay $10+ per hour for someone to cut my lawn, but aside from the initial spin up of a design to production on something like this, I probably wouldn't. You're welcome to do so, and the artist/manufacturer obviously will charge what they want. Creators and businesses fluctuate prices all the time, based on demand and cost of doing business.
MaxwellDemonic
838
Jul 3, 2018
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psicloneSo if it in no way affect you, why bother bringing it up over multiple drops? What purpose does it serve?
BlueCrowned
5305
Jul 3, 2018
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psicloneSo you feel that artists should not be paid fairly for their work?
MaxwellDemonic
838
Jul 3, 2018
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psicloneWell, there are ways to do that which are far more effective than posting here. Massdrop organizes everything and coordinates with the sellers. It's a pretty decent bet they aren't even aware of the page, much less reading the comments section. If it's something you think you can improve upon, it might be best to seek them out directly and provide that feedback.
All that happens here is a bunch of people who are excited about something cool see these threads. To some it sounds like you're crapping on the artisan market as a whole, in the same camp as the people who cry because caps are too expensive. I want to be clear, I'm not saying you're doing that, I am saying the existence of those people plays into the perception that you are.
EDIT: It seems Gen.S is a one-person shop. Most of their products are available exclusively through small boutique keycap shops, in very low quantity.
All that happens here is a bunch of people who are excited about something cool see these threads. To some it sounds like you're crapping on the artisan market as a whole, in the same camp as the people who cry because caps are too expensive. I want to be clear, I'm not saying you're doing that, I am saying the existence of those people plays into the perception that you are.
EDIT: It seems Gen.S is a one-person shop. Most of their products are available exclusively through small boutique keycap shops, in very low quantity.
psiclone
405
Jul 3, 2018
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BlueCrownedI never said that. What I said was that lowering the price will likely increase demand. I also know that most customers work for their money, so it goes both ways.
psiclone
405
Jul 3, 2018
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MaxwellDemonicThis forum is the only way I see Massdrop has provided for us to talk to the sellers and there are plenty of entries where sellers do converse with the potential customers. I've had some conversations like that. I get people get excited over whatever thing they want to buy, and that's fine. They're free to ignore the feedback provided, just as much as I'm free to give it. That's the beauty of a forum. It's an open discussion.
BlueCrowned
5305
Jul 3, 2018
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psicloneIf the price were lowered, it wouldn't be a livable wage for the artist.
MaxwellDemonic
838
Jul 3, 2018
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psicloneMassdrop is not going to convey your displeasure at the cost of a product or your willingness to see it produced in larger quantity. As long as you're fine barking into the void, and understand that it's extremely unlikely to yield any positive results, so be it. But understand you're gonna keep getting the same hate from the same people every time and that my friend is on you.
psiclone
405
Jul 3, 2018
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BlueCrownedBased on what facts and are they trying to make a living at this?
psiclone
405
Jul 3, 2018
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MaxwellDemonicSo you represent Massdrop? People hating on me for making a comment about something that really doesn't involve them directly isn't a problem I have to solve at all. Haters will hate. Someone abusing a victim for no valid reason doesn't make it the victim's fault.
Oh look! This is interesting: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/mecarmy-ek28-damascus-edc-knife/talk/2063341
Oh look! This is interesting: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/mecarmy-ek28-damascus-edc-knife/talk/2063341
BlueCrowned
5305
Jul 3, 2018
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psicloneEven if it's a side job, they still deserve to be paid a reasonable amount for their work. A livable wage is actually more than $10/hr in the US if you are working a 40 hr week. It is not hard to find this info.
psiclone
405
Jul 3, 2018
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BlueCrownedThen I'm sure they'll be happy to have you pay full price. Have fun with the product.
BlueCrowned
5305
Jul 3, 2018
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psicloneI would pay more for this, frankly. Because I value art and the work that goes into it.
smallbit
1328
Jul 3, 2018
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psicloneThe answer to my riddle was: "a jerk"
But I bet you thought it was a keycap huh? :P Also I stand by the comment you referenced 100%.
But I bet you thought it was a keycap huh? :P Also I stand by the comment you referenced 100%.
psiclone
405
Jul 3, 2018
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smallbitSo your thought was to come across as that which you claim me to be. Well done.
airstrike
101
Jul 3, 2018
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psicloneUnless God has given you knowledge otherwise unavailable to mere mortals, you have no way of knowing that lowering prices would increase the volume of sold inits to a degree that would more than offset the reduced unit margin.
Alternatively, you can run a market experiment and test your hypothesis yourself, possibly through auctions or through the sale of enough units that you feel confident in you best guess for the customers’ varying reservation prices.
Guess who has access to such data? Not you.
Before you go around touting hypoth ses as facts, take a marketing course on pricing, otherwise you’re just adding to the noise.
Alternatively, you can run a market experiment and test your hypothesis yourself, possibly through auctions or through the sale of enough units that you feel confident in you best guess for the customers’ varying reservation prices.
Guess who has access to such data? Not you.
Before you go around touting hypoth ses as facts, take a marketing course on pricing, otherwise you’re just adding to the noise.
BlueCrowned
5305
Jul 3, 2018
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airstrikeI think he should make an artisan and sell it for what he thinks artisans are worth.
MaxwellDemonic
838
Jul 3, 2018
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psicloneI dont. I'm going by what is typical of small batch work on MD. And it is on you. The community can't change the business practices of this company, Massdrop can't change the business practices of their partners, and instead of taking your"feedback" to the people who can make a difference you're just gonna ceaselessly complain. If you want to spend $20 on the cap, do it, if not, dont. It doesn't help anyone for you to whine about the cost.
Oh. I just looked through your forum post history... Complaining about price is pretty much all you do.
Oh. I just looked through your forum post history... Complaining about price is pretty much all you do.
smallbit
1328
Jul 3, 2018
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psiclone" your thought was to come across as that which you claim me to be "
I don't even know what you just said. But my riddle was straight fire.
I don't even know what you just said. But my riddle was straight fire.
Cyphre
2708
Jul 3, 2018
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MaxwellDemonicHonestly it's just unfortunate that psiclone hasn't said enough to get banned so that we wouldn't have to deal with this in literally every keyboard/keycap related drop. Many of us just don't bother giving him the time any more because it is clear from his history that his only purpose in being here is to complain that everything is expensive. So it's either someone unwilling to learn from the information that has been repeated time and time again, or intentional trolling.
There isn't much to be done either way since he hasn't taken it far enough to warrant a response from MD staff; despite the lengthy history of doing exactly this throughout the mechanical keyboard category.
There isn't much to be done either way since he hasn't taken it far enough to warrant a response from MD staff; despite the lengthy history of doing exactly this throughout the mechanical keyboard category.
Tyson522
245
Jul 4, 2018
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psicloneBruh, they once had a $50 fidget spinner on here (Rama S01-A). The total price for all of it came out to be $120K+. I was so baffled that people would pay so much for a spinner. Then one came into my possession for free and holy shit is it amazing. I can now under stand the cost of some of these items. You are also talking to the die hard community that is Mechanical Keyboards. I have spent $650 on one keyboard alone. And some guy just sold a keyboard forum for $40K today. SOLD A WEBSITE FOR $40,000 DOLLARS. We are dedicated man. We love these products and understand the cost and value of it all.
psiclone
405
Jul 4, 2018
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airstrikeNot true....lowing the price enough might make me buy more than one. Thus, it would increase sales. That's a fact.
psiclone
405
Jul 4, 2018
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CyphreThe only ban-able offenses are the personal attacks on me, simply because I said they should lower prices. Such defensiveness over something not even aimed at anything but feedback for the seller. The fact that you think someone should get banned for having a non-confrontational voice on a thread simply because you disagree with it is very telling.
MaxwellDemonic
838
Jul 4, 2018
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psicloneI'm reasonably sure there are community guidelines regarding trolling.
psiclone
405
Jul 4, 2018
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MaxwellDemonicThere may be...I would like to see them so I can make the direct correlation between that and the personal harassment I've received as a result of the very non-confrontational start of this thread and all my responses therein. That's a very good point indeed. Besides, I've already brought up examples of various people (including you) here that have said as much about other products. What's good for the goose as they say...
Cyphre
2708
Jul 4, 2018
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psicloneThere have been no personal attacks, only people pointing out what you've been doing. What you provide is not feedback at all, let alone remotely constructive. You've been told time and time again why things cost what they cost, every single time you post this exact type of thing on other drops.
For all I know, this may all be a language barrier issue. Having dealt with people from Finland, for example, there are certain English sentence concepts that aren't as understood, regardless of an individuals capacity to knowledge of the language itself; often resulting in sentence that come across as insulting. Although something tells me I've mentioned this before.
However, it seems clear you have nothing but "feedback" for just about everything posted in the mechanical keyboard community, and none of it is constructive nor helpful to anyone.
For all I know, this may all be a language barrier issue. Having dealt with people from Finland, for example, there are certain English sentence concepts that aren't as understood, regardless of an individuals capacity to knowledge of the language itself; often resulting in sentence that come across as insulting. Although something tells me I've mentioned this before.
However, it seems clear you have nothing but "feedback" for just about everything posted in the mechanical keyboard community, and none of it is constructive nor helpful to anyone.
MaxwellDemonic
838
Jul 4, 2018
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psicloneWho's harassing? Were simply providing you feedback. It doesn't matter if you follow it or even have the capacity to change, were allowed to keep saying it as loudly and voraciously as we want with the hope that eventually it will happen.
psiclone
405
Jul 4, 2018
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CyphreSo you think calling someone a "jerk" and a "troll" is constructive?
Cyphre
2708
Jul 4, 2018
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psicloneI think Maxwell already pointed out that it is clearly feedback. We're just trying to help the end user by providing observations.
AlexPk
7197
Community
Jul 4, 2018
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psicloneOkie dokie everyone. This verbal roller coaster is now closed for the evening. Please collect your belongings and opinions, and proceed towards the exit. Anything beyond this point will be subject to alteration by myself. We hope you've enjoyed the show and have a wonderful 4th of July 🎆 🎆 🎆 🎆 🎆
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