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AaronWarnick
116
Jul 20, 2016
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Why not just include the alphanumeric keys? It's not like the full Carbon set needs any more help reaching MOQ.
RidevaDemocritus
360
Jul 20, 2016
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AaronWarnickCost. I'd reckon that a majority of the people buying this set are buying it as an addition to their Carbon GMK set to swap in and out of various boards (and now, happily, the Ergodox!) I see the argument, but if JUST the Dox with no alphas is $40 at MOQ pre-shipping, the addition of all the required keys would bump the price way the hell up. I mean, the full set is 150+ keys (I think, I'm not counting them) so if you cut that full MOQ price in half you're at $55, so $95 full MOQ pre-ship for a complete, Dox-Only GMK set...
I dunno. I think it's probably more feasible as an add-on kit to create a complete Dox set than to buy a complete Dox set.
I dunno. I think it's probably more feasible as an add-on kit to create a complete Dox set than to buy a complete Dox set.
okapies
0
Jul 20, 2016
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RidevaDemocritusDouble shipping cost is pain for users residing in Asian countries... like me :(
priyadi
585
Jul 20, 2016
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okapiesI actually prefer separate shipment. Lower tax for us Indonesians to pay. This is assuming, of course, MD actually ships the packages separately.
AaronWarnick
116
Jul 20, 2016
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RidevaDemocritusThat sounds all well and good, but it isn't saving cost. You still have to meet MOQ, new keys still need to be made. The modifiers in any kit account for more like 2/3 or 3/5 of the price, not a half (though, that really isn't the point here).
What is being asked is that users buy a full kit for $105, then an Ergodox kit for $45, and then throw all but 36 keys from the full set in a drawer. It's a waste and there's no way that it's more cost-effective. You're looking somewhere between $80 and $100 (depending on buy in) as opposed to nearly +$150.
Ergodox user preference is in favor of All-in-One kits or the ability to buy alphanumeric sets and modifiers.
What is being asked is that users buy a full kit for $105, then an Ergodox kit for $45, and then throw all but 36 keys from the full set in a drawer. It's a waste and there's no way that it's more cost-effective. You're looking somewhere between $80 and $100 (depending on buy in) as opposed to nearly +$150.
Ergodox user preference is in favor of All-in-One kits or the ability to buy alphanumeric sets and modifiers.
mcmillion
82
Jul 20, 2016
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AaronWarnickAgreed. It's why I jumped on the Overcast DSA drop and not this.
RidevaDemocritus
360
Jul 20, 2016
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AaronWarnickI think it was stated earlier that it's not actually a new key, it's just the + key from the numpad for the verticals, so that's just a new run. I definitely understand the preference of the Dox users, it makes sense to me, but from a technical standpoint of 'hey guys we created this brand new, unique thing that has NEVER EXISTED before', and THEN to add a NEW segment to that brand new thing a week later, it's going to throw many wrenches in many works to keep revisiting the available packages. I've had to put together large projects for a large company and any time a small change gets implemented when the process has started I start feelin itchy and panicked. What @T0mb3ry and co has done is nothing short of spectacular. Would it be more fiscally beneficial to the end user to be able to make an all-in-one GMK Dox kit? Maybe. But how much would that add to the back end in cost, manpower, time, shipping, headaches, missed deadlines, etc..
They announced the GMK kit and the novelty with zero intention of adding ANYTHING else. In a matter of DAYS, they added a kit to appease a very vocal minority, but a minority nonetheless. I think that if you're anxious to get GMK Carbon for your Dox, you count your blessings that they made the option available. It's an expensive hobby, which sucks for our wallets (and the wrath of our wives/husbands/parents/friends/pets) yet we continue to plug away.
End of the day, if you really want the Dox kit you'll buy it, as will the other people who really want it. It's pricy but it's rare, and no doubt you'll see them going for far more on mechmarket et al after the shipping date.
They announced the GMK kit and the novelty with zero intention of adding ANYTHING else. In a matter of DAYS, they added a kit to appease a very vocal minority, but a minority nonetheless. I think that if you're anxious to get GMK Carbon for your Dox, you count your blessings that they made the option available. It's an expensive hobby, which sucks for our wallets (and the wrath of our wives/husbands/parents/friends/pets) yet we continue to plug away.
End of the day, if you really want the Dox kit you'll buy it, as will the other people who really want it. It's pricy but it's rare, and no doubt you'll see them going for far more on mechmarket et al after the shipping date.
AaronWarnick
116
Jul 22, 2016
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RidevaDemocritusYou're talking like someone has done you a favor... which is weird because you don't appear to have joined this drop (maybe you intend to, I don't know).
"Would it be more fiscally beneficial to the end user to be able to make an all-in-one GMK Dox kit? Maybe." - No, definitely. Unless the cost of getting R3 1.5 keys from GMK is absurdly high, there's no way this kit even comes close to $150. I would be really surprised if it broker $90 ... it's a loose estimate based on other GMK GB pricing discussions, so if someone has better math, feel free correct me.
"But how much would that add to the back end in cost, manpower, time, shipping, headaches, missed deadlines, etc.." - What? Massdrop is a fully-staffed business. They have an awesome staff of folks working in their San Francisco office and a solid warehouse in New Jersey. This isn't a community GB run by first timers. These folks are good at their jobs and you make it seem like 36 extra keys has the potential to overwhelm them.
There was " zero intention of adding ANYTHING else. In a matter of DAYS, they added a kit to appease a very vocal minority." -Were you even on the GH thread? Because I was. I tossed out the idea of adding an Ergodox kit months ago. I'm by no means saying it was my idea, as the reason I raised it was that Tomb3ry has said that SA Carbon on Ergodox was the best version of Carbon. I've also had a conversation with MD about having Ergodox-centric drops. Once again, not claiming credit here ... but my point is that you have no idea what was talked about in advance. Even if they waited to gauge their user interest, you can't know that they didn't intend on adding this from the start... at least certainly not enough to break out ALL CAPITAL LETTERS.
"a minority nonetheless" - Ergodox users buy into GBs in larger numbers than ISO layout users. It's not like we're an obscure bunch.
"It's an expensive hobby, which sucks for our wallets (and the wrath of our wives/husbands/parents/friends/pets) yet we continue to plug away." - I'm not new here...
"you count your blessings that they made the option available" - Yes. I am so desperate for this. It would literally make my life better and result in world peace.
"End of the day, if you really want the Dox kit you'll buy it," - False. I love this kit. As I have said, I advocated for the creation of this kit months ago. I'm not going to buy in on a unfriendly pricing model.
"Would it be more fiscally beneficial to the end user to be able to make an all-in-one GMK Dox kit? Maybe." - No, definitely. Unless the cost of getting R3 1.5 keys from GMK is absurdly high, there's no way this kit even comes close to $150. I would be really surprised if it broker $90 ... it's a loose estimate based on other GMK GB pricing discussions, so if someone has better math, feel free correct me.
"But how much would that add to the back end in cost, manpower, time, shipping, headaches, missed deadlines, etc.." - What? Massdrop is a fully-staffed business. They have an awesome staff of folks working in their San Francisco office and a solid warehouse in New Jersey. This isn't a community GB run by first timers. These folks are good at their jobs and you make it seem like 36 extra keys has the potential to overwhelm them.
There was " zero intention of adding ANYTHING else. In a matter of DAYS, they added a kit to appease a very vocal minority." -Were you even on the GH thread? Because I was. I tossed out the idea of adding an Ergodox kit months ago. I'm by no means saying it was my idea, as the reason I raised it was that Tomb3ry has said that SA Carbon on Ergodox was the best version of Carbon. I've also had a conversation with MD about having Ergodox-centric drops. Once again, not claiming credit here ... but my point is that you have no idea what was talked about in advance. Even if they waited to gauge their user interest, you can't know that they didn't intend on adding this from the start... at least certainly not enough to break out ALL CAPITAL LETTERS.
"a minority nonetheless" - Ergodox users buy into GBs in larger numbers than ISO layout users. It's not like we're an obscure bunch.
"It's an expensive hobby, which sucks for our wallets (and the wrath of our wives/husbands/parents/friends/pets) yet we continue to plug away." - I'm not new here...
"you count your blessings that they made the option available" - Yes. I am so desperate for this. It would literally make my life better and result in world peace.
"End of the day, if you really want the Dox kit you'll buy it," - False. I love this kit. As I have said, I advocated for the creation of this kit months ago. I'm not going to buy in on a unfriendly pricing model.
AlexPk
7197
Community
Jul 22, 2016
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AaronWarnickI think the decision was made to have this as an 'add-on' to minimize confusion and get the best price possible. @T0mb3ry and Yanbo would know for sure, but I think this method just makes the most sense for how it is now. The high price tag on two similar competing drops would just split the commits and instead of hitting the really high MOQ numbers we end up with two almost there order quantities. You have the base kit to do any of your boards and the option to dress up your Ergodox for $150 vs having the keys to only do your Ergodox for $100.
I'm right there with you that having a stand alone Ergodox drop would be nice, but I think this format really works for the majority of people and ultimately benefits everyone.
I'm right there with you that having a stand alone Ergodox drop would be nice, but I think this format really works for the majority of people and ultimately benefits everyone.
priyadi
585
Jul 22, 2016
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AlexPkAlex, how about an addon for Planck/Preonic user? It would require only additional 3 caps to this drop. I'm willing to pay extra and I'm sure many other P/P users are willing too. You also have hundreds of users unpacking and soldering their Planck/Preonic as we speak (mine in still on the way, though). And some will be interested in "The world's first GMK keyset for Planck/Preonic". This will lead to more sales in the main drop, too.
AaronWarnick
116
Jul 22, 2016
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AlexPkThanks for the reply. I appreciate you taking the time to articulate the decision. Through interactions, I know that Massdrop appreciates its Ergodox community. I know that @T0mb3ry does as well.
I think I'd subscribe more to the 'splitting MOQ' argument if the extended base set hadn't just passed 1,000 buy-ins. Congratulations on that, it's a huge achievement. But, even if everyone on this buy dropped their order on the base kit, it would still be wildly successful. Even this drop, despite the high buy in, is still doing very well. Fortunately, it doesn't look there will be any talk of "almost" hitting MOQs.
Ultimately, I get that this is a "first time" for this type of buy. GMK drops have been ... difficult to predict.
I appreciate that Massdrop and keyset designers have been willing to experiment with different ways to satisfy ergodox users. I leave feedback because I care, even if it's a bit ill tempered. <3
I think I'd subscribe more to the 'splitting MOQ' argument if the extended base set hadn't just passed 1,000 buy-ins. Congratulations on that, it's a huge achievement. But, even if everyone on this buy dropped their order on the base kit, it would still be wildly successful. Even this drop, despite the high buy in, is still doing very well. Fortunately, it doesn't look there will be any talk of "almost" hitting MOQs.
Ultimately, I get that this is a "first time" for this type of buy. GMK drops have been ... difficult to predict.
I appreciate that Massdrop and keyset designers have been willing to experiment with different ways to satisfy ergodox users. I leave feedback because I care, even if it's a bit ill tempered. <3
T0mb3ry
2136
T0mb3ry
Jul 22, 2016
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AaronWarnickHey if you want somebody to blame for that ergodox kit than you should blame me, since it was my decision.
Actaully it is an Addon as you can see. And it was not in my plans to make that addon since we are talking here about a GMK keyset. But things went greater than i have expected. I expected to sell 250 base sets but now we exceeded 1k mark. So pretty late into GB i just suggested to "try" an ErgoDox addon and because of that, we made it simple but thrilling, so we could achieve the lowest pricing. My intension was also to invite non ergodoxians into ergodox world. So we needed low pricing. By no means we could split alphas at that stage from the base set. But making ergodox set with alphas was also risky, since it would cost more and i couldn't foresee if it would reach its moq. But i was sure that this Addon would do it.
So it is not about making more money or something. It was just giving a chance for a proper Ergodox kit, because this was never done before. Its always painfull to see those frankenstein ergodoxes. I thought it would be cool to provide this opportunity.
Actaully it is an Addon as you can see. And it was not in my plans to make that addon since we are talking here about a GMK keyset. But things went greater than i have expected. I expected to sell 250 base sets but now we exceeded 1k mark. So pretty late into GB i just suggested to "try" an ErgoDox addon and because of that, we made it simple but thrilling, so we could achieve the lowest pricing. My intension was also to invite non ergodoxians into ergodox world. So we needed low pricing. By no means we could split alphas at that stage from the base set. But making ergodox set with alphas was also risky, since it would cost more and i couldn't foresee if it would reach its moq. But i was sure that this Addon would do it.
So it is not about making more money or something. It was just giving a chance for a proper Ergodox kit, because this was never done before. Its always painfull to see those frankenstein ergodoxes. I thought it would be cool to provide this opportunity.
RidevaDemocritus
360
Jul 22, 2016
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AaronWarnickLook man, I'm not disagreeing with you, but speaking as someone who has been on the manufacturers AND designers side of things (not keyboards, just so we're clear) it's not as easy as "hey lets just add to this thing we've been working on for days/weeks/months". While it would be awesome to have something like this done to add the alphas to the dox kit like they added the dox modifiers, we have no idea what kind of work went in to getting everything together.
And I don't mean to disparage you or anyone else by using to word minority in any way, I simply mean that as a userbase of Mechanical Keyboards, the majority aren't necessarily using the Dox. I'm not trying to fight with you at all, just illustrate that it's difficult to put together a massive buy of a product that is still vapor.
And when I was using all caps, that was more a lack of formatting options; I would much rather have added emphasis with italics than caps. I was on the GH thread and definitely saw a huge amount of requests for Dox. Again, think of the MD userbase buying these kits vs the GH userbase. And, at the end of the day, both GMK and MD are companies that are trying to make dollars.
I hope that they do figure something out. If not this drop, perhaps the next!
And I don't mean to disparage you or anyone else by using to word minority in any way, I simply mean that as a userbase of Mechanical Keyboards, the majority aren't necessarily using the Dox. I'm not trying to fight with you at all, just illustrate that it's difficult to put together a massive buy of a product that is still vapor.
And when I was using all caps, that was more a lack of formatting options; I would much rather have added emphasis with italics than caps. I was on the GH thread and definitely saw a huge amount of requests for Dox. Again, think of the MD userbase buying these kits vs the GH userbase. And, at the end of the day, both GMK and MD are companies that are trying to make dollars.
I hope that they do figure something out. If not this drop, perhaps the next!
AaronWarnick
116
Jul 22, 2016
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T0mb3ryFirst, congratulations on this very successful GB. You've made a killer set.
"Blame" is not the word I would use. Ultimately, this is a good thing. I'd imagine that this more or less proves that Ergodox users aren't a "vocal minority," and that we have the numbers to make an impact on a GB and crush MOQs.
However, this is not how I would like to see Ergodox compatibility handled in the future. The extended base set has ~160 keys, Ergodox users will use 36-40 of those. We're paying a lot of money to toss out (aka, carefully store in plastic bags) over 100 weird modifier that accommodate everything from the Pok3r to Duck Lightsaver.
I understand not splitting the alphas from the bast set in this instance. Messing with a set that has 1,000 people in on it would likely be bad news, even if it could possibly drop costs by having more Ergodox users buy the alphas. Though, while I would have liked to have seen alphas added to this kit, but as it is about to reach its max buy-in price break, I understand leaving well-enough alone in this instance too.
But that is what I think should be considered in the future (which is why I'm writing manifesto length responses). Alpanumerics as a stand-alone and then extended modifiers and ergodox+ortholinear (I gotchu, friends) as separate add-ons. Theoretically, it would not effect the overall buy-ins (unless MD has some data that suggests that people don't like how that math works). And it's not asking standard users to pay for their non-standard compatriots.
"Blame" is not the word I would use. Ultimately, this is a good thing. I'd imagine that this more or less proves that Ergodox users aren't a "vocal minority," and that we have the numbers to make an impact on a GB and crush MOQs.
However, this is not how I would like to see Ergodox compatibility handled in the future. The extended base set has ~160 keys, Ergodox users will use 36-40 of those. We're paying a lot of money to toss out (aka, carefully store in plastic bags) over 100 weird modifier that accommodate everything from the Pok3r to Duck Lightsaver.
I understand not splitting the alphas from the bast set in this instance. Messing with a set that has 1,000 people in on it would likely be bad news, even if it could possibly drop costs by having more Ergodox users buy the alphas. Though, while I would have liked to have seen alphas added to this kit, but as it is about to reach its max buy-in price break, I understand leaving well-enough alone in this instance too.
But that is what I think should be considered in the future (which is why I'm writing manifesto length responses). Alpanumerics as a stand-alone and then extended modifiers and ergodox+ortholinear (I gotchu, friends) as separate add-ons. Theoretically, it would not effect the overall buy-ins (unless MD has some data that suggests that people don't like how that math works). And it's not asking standard users to pay for their non-standard compatriots.
T0mb3ry
2136
T0mb3ry
Jul 22, 2016
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AaronWarnickThank you!
Reasonable suggestion. And indeed for the next drops (Carbon SA and probably GMK) the Alphas will be stand alone.
However i just wanted to explain the current situation. If i could foresee those selling numbers then sure i have made it like you have suggested. There is no doubt about it. Its just before, we had no clue what is comming at us. So i was careful with setup.
Reasonable suggestion. And indeed for the next drops (Carbon SA and probably GMK) the Alphas will be stand alone.
However i just wanted to explain the current situation. If i could foresee those selling numbers then sure i have made it like you have suggested. There is no doubt about it. Its just before, we had no clue what is comming at us. So i was careful with setup.
priyadi
585
Jul 23, 2016
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AlexPkI admit this is a less than ideal type of situation, I can use other keys in a pinch. But I guess I can't believe we are only 3 caps short from proper P/P support and we can't do anything about this. I already asked T0mb3ry but because the next drop point is already decided, we need to reach around 500 before he can consider adding anything to the set. So I guess this is in MD hands now.
So, what I'm proposing here is a Planck/Preonic option, attached to this drop. For an extra $5-$10, buyers can opt for the additional 3 caps. Then you can rename this drop to "GMK Carbon Ergodox Modifier Kit with option for Planck/Preonic"
So, what I'm proposing here is a Planck/Preonic option, attached to this drop. For an extra $5-$10, buyers can opt for the additional 3 caps. Then you can rename this drop to "GMK Carbon Ergodox Modifier Kit with option for Planck/Preonic"
JR.o
17
Jul 23, 2016
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priyadiWould it work to add to the GMK Carbon Novelties kit instead of the Ergodox kit? If you started from this kit, what extra keys would you need or want? Would the flipping an R1 cap into an R5 cap be comfortable on the bottom row? Would R5 be too steep, or would the R1 itself be comfortable for thumb use?
robotmaxtron
82
Jul 24, 2016
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JR.oNo, you're missing several of the important longer keys plus.
YanboWu
8490
Collaborations
Jul 26, 2016
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priyadiHey GMK came through for the community and added the 3 keycaps to give the set compatibility for the Planck!
priyadi
585
Jul 26, 2016
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YanboWuWow this is unexpected! Thanks man! Its just the main drop is already ended, so you are missing some sales from the orthol folks who didn't think Planck/Preonic was a possibility. But personally I'm not complaining and very happy about this.
PS. you can add Preonic compatibility up there in the description too.
PS. you can add Preonic compatibility up there in the description too.
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