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RayF
22213
May 10, 2018
No USB input?
The_Jniac
322
May 10, 2018
RayFIt is an amp, not a DAC. I recommend getting a Topping DX7S if you do not already have a DAC with XLR outputs. It measures brilliantly, competing with significantly more expensive options, and its only major flaw is that the built in amp is rubbish. That said, DACs pretty much all sound exactly the same once you eliminate psychological effects and volume differences.
RayF
22213
May 10, 2018
The_JniacHmm...so you mean using a PC as the source, the only option into an Amp would be via RCs in? Or otherwise go out to a DAC and then into the AMP?
guybkt
46
May 10, 2018
RayFAbsolutely. If you're spending $800 on an amp, do you really want to feed it with a less than ideal signal from a PC soundcard?
The_Jniac
322
May 10, 2018
RayFExactly. You likely need an adapter to run the analogue signal from the PC though, since very few PCs have RCA outputs.
RayF
22213
May 10, 2018
guybktNot me--that's why I opted for a Jotunheim! Solves both problems and leaves me with a little change left over vs. this alternative.
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The_Jniac
322
May 10, 2018
guybktIt would still probably be fine. Most onboard sound solutions can manage to be audibly transparent, although they are a bit less predictable as to whether they will output a full ~2V signal or not. This lower voltage, or more precisely, the lower volume that it produces, is one of the two main reasons for perceived improvements in audio quality, with the other being placebo effects. Besides, if he does have issues with the onboard sound, the OL DAC is $100 and will get rid of those quite handily.
RayF
22213
May 10, 2018
The_JniacMine did--an iMac via the headphone output through a Y-cable to a pair of JBL Series 3 monitors. Sounded great but I opted for XLR cables once the Jotunheim arrived. Still sounds great!
The_Jniac
322
May 10, 2018
RayFThat is good solution as well, although Schiit DACs do have some strange issues of their own, and get crushed by the recent stuff that Topping has released. These issues are not going to be audible, but still... Their Multibit stuff in particular is pretty poor for the price they charge, with the Yggdrasil going even further to be utterly laughable. However, the Jotunheim and Vidar seem to suggest that Schiit still have some desire to make stuff that is actually good instead going the route of many other audio companies that routinely border on fraud *cough* Cavalli *cough*.
RayF
22213
May 10, 2018
The_JniacHad the opportunity to go the Multibit route but passed and settled for the Gen2 DAC module instead. Reasonably happy with the setup and sound. Only complaint about the Jot is there is no (apparent) way to turn off the connected speakers while listening to headphones!
The_Jniac
322
May 11, 2018
RayFYeah, most of the amps that I have seen that have pre-outs take the (in my opinion) lazy route of using a switching headphone connector. Seems like that is also the case with this amp. It costs $1000, but asking for a switch to toggle between pre-outs and the headphone output is just being spoiled westerner I guess.
RayF
22213
May 11, 2018
The_JniacI know--I blame myself for my lazy tendencies--even more now that I solved the problem with a bluetooth/Alexa activated socket connecting both speaker cords and the power outlet. Now I just say: "Alexa--speakers off" or "on" as needed...
DontDooDad
94
May 11, 2018
RayFThe Jotunheim is a good amp.
The H20 is better. Deeper sound stage, even tighter and punchier low end, it sounds effortless with my Ether C Flow. The highs were a bit harsh at first, but seem to have gotten better over time. Yesterday I put two Sparkos SS3602s in there and it sounds squeaky clean now. Went back and forth with the Jotunheim for a bit before that (Yggdrasil with XLR Y-splitter cables), but have no reason to go back.
If $800 (or $940 with the Sparkos opamps) seem like a stretch, the Jotunheim will do the trick. The H20 isn't 2x as good, but it's a welcome upgrade for me.
https://sparkoslabs.com/product/dual-discrete-op-amp-ss3602/
DontDooDad
94
May 11, 2018
DontDooDadI should add that I have barely used the single ended outs, mostly the 4-pin XLR. It's possible that single ended the Jotunheim sounds better.
Also, the gain switch on the H20 is pretty useless. Hardly any difference between the three gain settings, even between the lowest and the highest.
I like that the H20 has two balanced inputs. Makes it easier to A/B two balanced DACs.
H20 has power switch in the front rather than in the back like the Jotunheim.
It's much bigger, though.
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RayF
22213
May 11, 2018
DontDooDadNice to have the upgrade ability and the sound sounds nice as you describe it, but coastwise, I was only willing to wade in up to my knees. I've never tried the single end connections either, might be worth playing with at some point. And I do find the power switch on the back of the Jot annoying--I generally leave it on now unless I'm out of town. Surprised by how small the Jot was when I received it and equally surprised by how big other units are by comparison. No sure I'm willing to give up to much more real estate on my desk; might have think about alternate locations if I move up to the "bigs."
Thanks for the advice and input!
The_Jniac
322
May 11, 2018
DontDooDadDid you volume match with a multimeter? If not, the test is largely invalid since minute volume differences can affect sound quality, even if you cannot hear that one is louder than the other.
DontDooDad
94
May 11, 2018
The_JniacI did not. I tried many different songs over the course of the day, and so I had to adjust the volume frequently anyway. It is quite unlikely that I consistently made one amp louder than the other. But I did consistently hear a deeper sound stage and tighter bass from the H20 when I did hear a difference. Don't take my word for it. See if this is a common finding from people comparing the two, then maybe there's something to it.
GreenJelly
11
May 14, 2018
RayFLook its RAYF, pretending again to be buying something. Hi Ray, I miss you buddy! Wheres my kiss?
RayF
22213
May 14, 2018
GreenJellyMiss you too--like a toothache. I see you're still knock'n em dead with the whole followers and endorsements thing. Don't worry about it--your YouTube video is on track to hit eleven-million views this month--congrats!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtffv9bpB-U
GreenJelly
11
May 14, 2018
RayFWhats wrong Sweety, don't you love me?
Villy
68
Jun 10, 2018
RayFThis is a dedicated amp, not a DAC, why it would need USB input?
RayF
22213
Jun 10, 2018
VillyWell how am I going to get my tunes in there so I can amplify 'em? Is there like a...radiator cap that I can open and just poor 'em in?
RayF
22213
Jun 10, 2018
VillyKidding about the radiator cap, but I'm not sure why having a dedicated precludes a USB input? For instance, this amp has one:
https://en-us.sennheiser.com/digital-headphones-amplifier-hdv-820
Good video on that link too; I recommend headphones--turned up loud ;- )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=69&v=7AZnSK92UMU
Villy
68
Jun 11, 2018
RayFAn amplifier, a dedicated amplifier like H20 simply amplifies sound, analog sound to be precise, and analog sound does not come thru USB ports. In fact, no sound comes thru USB port at all - all you get thru it is a digital stream of 1s and 0s which need a DAC to get converted into analog sound. No offense meant here, but I'd advise you to google up the basics of amplification if you'd need me expand further on the above, something like sound 101.
RayF
22213
Jun 11, 2018
VillyGuessing you missed the Sennheiser amp I referenced? I get the 0s an 1s bit, but I still see a USB port on that AMP, with no mention of a DAC (if you need me to explain what a DAC is, call me at 1-800 -you’re a dick ;- )
The_Jniac
322
Jun 11, 2018
RayFDigital amps do exist, but this is, despite the name, not one of them. Source here: https://assets.sennheiser.com/global-downloads/file/8823/HDV820_Manual_570794_0817_EN.pdf EDIT: "Digital amp" is not to be confused with Class D amps, which are digital in a way, but still involve a low-level analogue signal being amplified. There are amps, such as NAD's DirectDigital line, which are basically DACs that can output watts of power without having a low-level analogue signal involved.
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Kirkladc
64
Jun 25, 2018
The_JniacWhat’s The backstory on the fraud with Cavalli products? Because I was looking to purchase some used items. Some of the stuff I was looking at was pretty expensive so now I don’t know what to think?
guybkt
46
Jun 25, 2018
RayFIt's a DAC/Amp, not a dedicated amp. A dedicated amp has no use for USB... you know, given the whole 'A' component of the DAC acronym.
RayF
22213
Jun 26, 2018
guybktSee above video, then correct you answer and resubmit.
guybkt
46
Jun 26, 2018
RayFNo
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The_Jniac
322
Jun 26, 2018
KirkladcBasically, they charged vast sums of money for equipment that did not perform particularly well in any way, nor did it even have the build quality one would expect for the price. There was a thread on Head-fi complaining about the build quality of the internals of Cavalli products, but given how rabidly Head-fi defends its sponsors, I would not be surprised if the whole thread got nuked. Cavalli was an embodiment of everything I loathe about audiophilia: they put gear that was nothing special into fancy boxes, put a large price tag on it, and let marketing and placebo effects do the rest.
Villy
68
Jun 26, 2018
The_JniacThis is just another combo consisting of an amplifier with an integrated DAC inside, like so many others. Albeit likely a very good combo in terms of performance, still it is an amp with an integrated DAC. Where H20 is stand-alone amplifier with its only function being the amplification of analogue sound, nothing else.
Please don't take my response as something that requires responding to back - I am not interested in furthering this discussion as we don't seem to refer to the same thing here, and so I'll refrain from posting back on the subject, no offense meant.
RayF
22213
Jun 27, 2018
guybktAs you wish.
totoloope
11
Dec 13, 2018
The_JniacThis is totaly wrong ! Dac do sound difrent if you have good résolution phones
The_Jniac
322
Dec 13, 2018
totoloopeResearch by Olive and Toole shows that even wide band frequency response deviations have a minimum audible threshold of around 0.5dB. Pretty much any DAC can manage ±0.1dB 20Hz-20kHz, so nothing audible there. From a cursory bit of digging, the lowest minimum audible threshold for distortion that I could find was 0.7%, which is more or less in line with the conventional wisdom of "distortion below 1% is not audible". Again, any decent product will be well below that, and since music is much more complicated than pure sine waves, audible levels will actually be higher due to being masked. Nothing there either. Jitter is pretty much the same story: below audible levels. In fact, even basic gear can get the jitter products to be below -100dB, which is so low that many devices would actually mask that with their own noise, so nothing audible from jitter. So that leaves noise from the devices themselves which are, again, well below being audible unless the amplifier is turned up ridiculously high, to the point where playing actual music through the system would blow something up. Headphone resolution has nothing to do with it. It is human ears that lack the ability to detect these differences, and while some people claim otherwise, they inevitably fail controlled tests. Much of what people claim to hear actually comes from between their ears, not the world beyond them. The human brain actually has connections that feed back to sensory inputs, including hearing, which can alter their activity, thus altering what we think we perceive. Google the McGurck Effect. There is plenty of research online showing that placebo effects can do all kinds of wonderful things, like alleviating pain and treating depression so severe that the subjects were hospitalized.
totoloope
11
Dec 14, 2018
The_JniacIf you don't hear any differences between dac great for you, save money. You read the numbers i listean to music enjoy
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