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Showing 1 of 17 conversations about:
FriedShoe
188
Jan 19, 2018
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Kavik
5531
Jan 20, 2018
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FriedShoeWhile I'm not sure it would really be THAT much of an issue with a proper pinch grip, I do agree that the step there is way too big and a poor choice for an intentional design aspect.
I think the part that concerns me more is that about half of the pictures look as though they have spot weld repairs where the blade meets the tang??
Same as with the Damascus drop, i'm sure there are much more reputable choices in the price range. By no means are these the most expensive knives but they sure aren't cheap enough for the kinds of doubts people are pointing out with them
I think the part that concerns me more is that about half of the pictures look as though they have spot weld repairs where the blade meets the tang??
Same as with the Damascus drop, i'm sure there are much more reputable choices in the price range. By no means are these the most expensive knives but they sure aren't cheap enough for the kinds of doubts people are pointing out with them
YabosMcGee
338
Jan 20, 2018
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KavikI remember reading somewhere that Japanese kitchen knives aren't made like Western kitchen knives with regards to the tang. Basically, the knife blade is made separately from the tang, which is later welded together. That would explain why you see weld marks between the blade and tang.
You can see it mentioned here:
https://cheftalk.com/threads/not-a-full-tang.55184/#post-270952
I've also seen it mentioned in a few other places.
You can see it mentioned here:
https://cheftalk.com/threads/not-a-full-tang.55184/#post-270952
I've also seen it mentioned in a few other places.
Kavik
5531
Jan 20, 2018
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YabosMcGeeWhile I can see where that would make sense with stamped or stock removal methods for not wasting steel, I have a couple of thoughts :
1) if that's your method, and a kurouchi finish is being put on the blade to make it look like a traditionally forged knife, why would you not weld first, then grind smooth, then finish over it?
You're saying they shaped the whole blade with no tang to hold onto, applied the finish to both the blade and the tang, then sloppily welded the two pieces together?
2) all the advertising in the description speaks of the master smiths, and expert forging, and long traditions.....i don't see where welded tangs are something that fit that bill
3) not all j-knives are made like that, the discussion you linked to is talking about a possible method, but that doesn't make it a common one. There are many aspects we could go into that might lead to using that method on a particular knife, but they don't really need to be discussed here.
Suffice it to say, I've bought plenty of j-knives and Chinese cleavers with stick tangs, in many different steels and construction types, the majority of which have had the handles removed and some level of sanding/polishing/patina-ing done to them that would've revealed even a clean, well blended weld.
The ONLY one I recall coming across that had that was a $15 Chinese clever (which makes sense when you're looking at a 3" tall blade needed a thin tang hanging off it) and even with that, at a $15 blade, the weld was ground smooth and hidden under the kurouchi finish. No idea it was there until the surface was sanded through.
Visible welds on a $170-230 knife? I don't care if it's a repair or part of the construction. It's laughable to think that that should be acceptable
Visible welds on a $170-230 knife? I don't care if it's a repair or part of the construction. It's laughable to think that that should be acceptable
Shenanigans
175
Jan 20, 2018
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KavikThis is a common quagmire that discussions about Japanese kitchen knives frequently fall into about the merits of tang and bolster discussion. It's all pretty pointless. The construction method is not not nearly as important as the actual execution.
In other words not "how" it was done, but "how well" it was done.
One of the main points of failure on a kitchen knife is not the tang it's self but the junction between tang and handle. The fact that there are no pictures that show there area where than tang and handle meet makes me nervous. If there are significant gaps there, then moisture will enter and, on a carbon blade like this one, rust/ corrode the tang inside the handle. - not likely enough to compromise blade / tang integrity, but quite possibly enough to loosen the handle from the tang.
Yes, and gaps there can easily be filled with marine epoxy (that's what some makers like Takeda do right at the factory), but to the point that @FriedShoe raised in the first post: the design and construction of the handle looks pretty terrible. I am also very much not a fan of non-flush ferrule/handle junctions (only reason to do it is to save money / remove a finishing step) . I also dont like handles that 'flair" (get larger) the further they are from the blade as it makes the area where your shortest finger is supposed to wrap also the largest circumference.
So if they've cut corners in places where things are very visible where else have they done it? The core steel is claimed as "Blue" what kind? Blue#1? 2? Super? They are all good steels, but they all also take some special care and skill to reach high hardness and get the most out of them without also becoming brittle / chippy.
One of the main points of failure on a kitchen knife is not the tang it's self but the junction between tang and handle. The fact that there are no pictures that show there area where than tang and handle meet makes me nervous. If there are significant gaps there, then moisture will enter and, on a carbon blade like this one, rust/ corrode the tang inside the handle. - not likely enough to compromise blade / tang integrity, but quite possibly enough to loosen the handle from the tang.
Yes, and gaps there can easily be filled with marine epoxy (that's what some makers like Takeda do right at the factory), but to the point that @FriedShoe raised in the first post: the design and construction of the handle looks pretty terrible. I am also very much not a fan of non-flush ferrule/handle junctions (only reason to do it is to save money / remove a finishing step) . I also dont like handles that 'flair" (get larger) the further they are from the blade as it makes the area where your shortest finger is supposed to wrap also the largest circumference.
So if they've cut corners in places where things are very visible where else have they done it? The core steel is claimed as "Blue" what kind? Blue#1? 2? Super? They are all good steels, but they all also take some special care and skill to reach high hardness and get the most out of them without also becoming brittle / chippy.
Kavik
5531
Jan 21, 2018
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ShenanigansOh, i know, I get all that :)
I wasn't arguing the point @FriedShoe made, just adding on to it.
And the rest was, like you say, about how well it's done. The idea of a company having visible welds in the product images for a $170+ knife just absolutely boggles my mind
I haven't been a member here all that long, but I've yet to see a decent buy on anything that appears to be a decent quality Japanese kitchen knife
And the rest was, like you say, about how well it's done. The idea of a company having visible welds in the product images for a $170+ knife just absolutely boggles my mind
I haven't been a member here all that long, but I've yet to see a decent buy on anything that appears to be a decent quality Japanese kitchen knife
FriedShoe
188
Jan 23, 2018
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Albert.AI completely disagree. It gets irritating for me after about 15 minutes, and feels awkward from the start.
Shenanigans
175
Jan 24, 2018
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KavikI went back and looked a few times at the pictures that you called out and I can't see any clear sign of a weld. Some variation in the iron from hammering and kurouchi finish, but not clear weld lines.
Again, I think it's a bit silly to dwell on, but it would make no sense to do this step on a hammer-forged blade. It would actually slow the process down and add an extra step and expense.
IIRC there where a few makers who used to actually use mild steel for the cladding and then weld on stainless for the tang to remove the risk / worry of the tang rusting inside the handle. I feel like maybe Takeda did this before they started using stainless for the cladding (but I could be wrong). But again, this was a premium feature done at extra expense for a specific benefit.
However, a place where this is much more common is in production knives with metal bolsters. Many (if not all) Shuns have bolsters that are actually attached with a weld. Some custom makers also do this on knives that are made by stock removal instead forging. In general when making western knives by hand forging an integral bolster adds time, material, and expense (sometimes increasing the cost of the blade by 50-100%). If done properly, welding is completely seamless (literally) and is only revealed when acid etching the blade because the different steels of blade, weld, and bolster will react slightly differently. It may tweak some people's OCD, but it has 0 impact on the real-world performance of the blade.
Again, I think it's a bit silly to dwell on, but it would make no sense to do this step on a hammer-forged blade. It would actually slow the process down and add an extra step and expense.
IIRC there where a few makers who used to actually use mild steel for the cladding and then weld on stainless for the tang to remove the risk / worry of the tang rusting inside the handle. I feel like maybe Takeda did this before they started using stainless for the cladding (but I could be wrong). But again, this was a premium feature done at extra expense for a specific benefit.
However, a place where this is much more common is in production knives with metal bolsters. Many (if not all) Shuns have bolsters that are actually attached with a weld. Some custom makers also do this on knives that are made by stock removal instead forging. In general when making western knives by hand forging an integral bolster adds time, material, and expense (sometimes increasing the cost of the blade by 50-100%). If done properly, welding is completely seamless (literally) and is only revealed when acid etching the blade because the different steels of blade, weld, and bolster will react slightly differently. It may tweak some people's OCD, but it has 0 impact on the real-world performance of the blade.
Albert.A
109
Jan 24, 2018
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YabosMcGeeThis is wrong, no one would ever weld a knife to the tang .
You can't compromise the most weak point of a knife for lowing cost of manufacturing, beside making a tang by itself and then welding it adds more work which will lead for extra effort and time and even more special tools to put into work to make the knife, this is just stupid.
It is like scratching you left ear with you right hand .
Kavik
5531
Jan 24, 2018
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ShenanigansWell, it's all just speculation based off inadequate pictures, short of holding one in our hands we'll never know for sure.
But, just for the sake of clarification: what had initially made me think weld was that if you look at all the pics of the Yasai-Giri the discoloration is visible in the same area on both sides of the blade, in a sort of vertical rectangle of a shape, distinctly different in shape and size from any of the other hammer/forging marks on the rest of the blade(s). And googling brings up similar marks found in other pictures, but not all, and always only in the area where the tang and blade meet. If it were just hammer marks we would see that pattern somewhere else along the blade
And I agree that it would be an unusual extra (intentional) step on a forged knife, which is why my original comment had been that I thought it was a repair, until we got into the whole 'are tangs sometimes welded on?' discussion. It's certainly a common enough area to get warping during the forging/heat treating/quenching process... And it wouldn't be the first time i've heard of a tang cracking when trying to straighten a bend in it. Which then comes to a question of do you weld to repair or discard the blade and write off that piece of inventory?
Again, it's just all theoretical, for the sake of conversation at this point, especially since the drop has ended. But their entire site is full of more marketing jargon then actual info, and even on their site you can't get a decent resolution picture, or a view of the blade entering the handle or a choil shot to show the grinds, or info on the bevel types, etc, etc, etc...... I still think if they want these kinds of prices for a blade you can't hold before buying, they need to put more effort into providing detailed info/pics and less effort on creative writing and buzz words.
Would love to see a review from someone who actually owns one, or has access to see a large selection of them in person
Edit : my mistake, I thought the drop had ended but see it still has half a day. Anyway, I'm bowing out of this conversation. It's gone from a simple comment of saying it looked like I was seeing a weld, to way more in depth defending than any of us should feel the need for for knives we don't own and only have crappy pictures of. For those who actually joined the drop, i genuinely hope I'm misinterpreting the low-res images and would love to hear what people think when they physically have them in hand
But, just for the sake of clarification: what had initially made me think weld was that if you look at all the pics of the Yasai-Giri the discoloration is visible in the same area on both sides of the blade, in a sort of vertical rectangle of a shape, distinctly different in shape and size from any of the other hammer/forging marks on the rest of the blade(s). And googling brings up similar marks found in other pictures, but not all, and always only in the area where the tang and blade meet. If it were just hammer marks we would see that pattern somewhere else along the blade
And I agree that it would be an unusual extra (intentional) step on a forged knife, which is why my original comment had been that I thought it was a repair, until we got into the whole 'are tangs sometimes welded on?' discussion. It's certainly a common enough area to get warping during the forging/heat treating/quenching process... And it wouldn't be the first time i've heard of a tang cracking when trying to straighten a bend in it. Which then comes to a question of do you weld to repair or discard the blade and write off that piece of inventory?
Again, it's just all theoretical, for the sake of conversation at this point, especially since the drop has ended. But their entire site is full of more marketing jargon then actual info, and even on their site you can't get a decent resolution picture, or a view of the blade entering the handle or a choil shot to show the grinds, or info on the bevel types, etc, etc, etc...... I still think if they want these kinds of prices for a blade you can't hold before buying, they need to put more effort into providing detailed info/pics and less effort on creative writing and buzz words.
Would love to see a review from someone who actually owns one, or has access to see a large selection of them in person
Edit : my mistake, I thought the drop had ended but see it still has half a day. Anyway, I'm bowing out of this conversation. It's gone from a simple comment of saying it looked like I was seeing a weld, to way more in depth defending than any of us should feel the need for for knives we don't own and only have crappy pictures of. For those who actually joined the drop, i genuinely hope I'm misinterpreting the low-res images and would love to hear what people think when they physically have them in hand
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Haven't held a traditional Japanese handle where the ferrule and handle were not flush? Trust me, you don't want to.