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teshdor
12
Sep 22, 2015
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People asking for updates need to relax. You are waiting for a keyboard, not a heart transplant.
smith058
100
Sep 22, 2015
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teshdorhow can people relax when their keyboard is almost four months past due and the next update could be another issue?
some of the people waiting on this keyboard ARE waiting on a heart-like transplant with their severe RSI problems, which for some is a debilitating condition.
I too am anxious to here "shipping has begun!" even though I'm in the second batch of deliveries.
KoviRobi
40
Sep 23, 2015
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smith058I just hope I will have time to get practiced at using it before the real university workload begins.
dragon788
69
Sep 23, 2015
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smith058Estimated ship date is Jun 29, 2015.
After the drop ends, check the discussion page for updates.
It won't be 4 months until the END of October. And as has been hashed and rehashed in the comments, if you did much reading at all you would have realized this is not a completed project, this is a work in progress, the first time for a new firmware and PCB and a redesign of the cases to accommodate the LCD and "better" USB connectors. I'm sad that I won't have it right away, but then again I ordered this and an ErgoDox EZ, and I knew that one wasn't shipping until December.
If you want a product in your hands immediately, go to the local electronics store and buy the best mechanical keyboard you can find (good luck), if you want a fantastic product you won't FIND anywhere else, then be patient, it will come and it will be glorious. Buuuut, hopefully you didn't skip reading the part about "some assembly required" as that seems to have tripped up a number of people who weren't prepared to solder the keys on.
After the drop ends, check the discussion page for updates.
It won't be 4 months until the END of October. And as has been hashed and rehashed in the comments, if you did much reading at all you would have realized this is not a completed project, this is a work in progress, the first time for a new firmware and PCB and a redesign of the cases to accommodate the LCD and "better" USB connectors. I'm sad that I won't have it right away, but then again I ordered this and an ErgoDox EZ, and I knew that one wasn't shipping until December.
If you want a product in your hands immediately, go to the local electronics store and buy the best mechanical keyboard you can find (good luck), if you want a fantastic product you won't FIND anywhere else, then be patient, it will come and it will be glorious. Buuuut, hopefully you didn't skip reading the part about "some assembly required" as that seems to have tripped up a number of people who weren't prepared to solder the keys on.
dylanmc
91
Sep 23, 2015
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dragon788dragon788 wrote "...if you did much reading at all you would have realized this is not a completed project..." Okay, I've read and re-read the original description, I've looked closely at the photos that look very much like they're of a done product, not a work in progress (which would have been more like a blender model, or something much more proto-type-y). Not only that, but this appeared to be a minor tweak on a keyboard MD had already shipped. So, please point out where in that description it should have been so obvious that October is when we should have expected our keyboards instead of the June listed?
I'm honestly asking, because I'd rather not make such a newb mistake again. By your description of events, I was fore-warned, but I (and more than a few others) totally missed it.
I'm honestly asking, because I'd rather not make such a newb mistake again. By your description of events, I was fore-warned, but I (and more than a few others) totally missed it.
retinator
35
Sep 24, 2015
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dylanmcThe unfortunate thing about the way this was set up is that there are key pieces of information in the comments. So if you only read the description, you could have easily missed some important details.
HaaTa and others made some comments that (to me at least) seemed to clearly indicate that not everything was ready to just click a button and make the keyboards appear (I had linked to an example in a previous comment, but am too lazy to find it again). It may be that those who were fully aware read the comments and googled this project before joining. If your research stopped at the description page, that may be why you missed it.
HaaTa and others made some comments that (to me at least) seemed to clearly indicate that not everything was ready to just click a button and make the keyboards appear (I had linked to an example in a previous comment, but am too lazy to find it again). It may be that those who were fully aware read the comments and googled this project before joining. If your research stopped at the description page, that may be why you missed it.
smith058
100
Sep 24, 2015
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dragon788>>> It won't be 4 months until the END of October.
> LOL… Yah I know!!! Like I said 4 months!!! If it still has 2+ weeks before shipment pluss another 1-3 weeks for delivery, then that easy puts it at the END of October. Add another 2+ weeks for second set of deliveries (which I’m in, as well as half of the drop) then this is going to be well over 4 months past due!!! I'm going to be lucky to see my dox by Thanksgiving (if this is called luck). Do the math…
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>>> if you did much reading at all you would have realized this is not a completed project, this is a work in progress,
> Since you can read so much better than I, can you please show mw where in the product description where it says this is “not a completed project”? Because I must really suck at reading, I can’t find it anywhere! I did read in the comments that HaaTa was still working on the software side of things and that all the software was going to be done before it ships. I also read where HaaTa stated that the estimated shipping date of Jun 29, 2015 was more than enough and only put so far out just to have ample time… So other than following along within the comments and reading the constant delays and finding out that it was only in a pre-prototype stage after the drop ended, please show me preferably in the description (the product page) where it informs us that this is a work in progress…
I have bought a few other items from MassDrop, and they were not in a prototype phase, in fact, I cannot find any item in MD that it in a prototype phase… THE WAY THIS PARTICULAR DROP WAS DONE WAS/IS MISLEADING and can easily be turned into a lawsuit here in the U.S.
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>>> if you want a fantastic product you won't FIND anywhere else, then be patient, it will come and it will be glorious.
> I agree, that’s why I haven’t canceled my order and I am still patiently grinding my teeth waiting delay after delay for the final words “YOU PRODUCT HAS BEEN SHIPPED!”.
arithon
273
Sep 24, 2015
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smith058Dude, don't threaten (or "suggest" or "warn that it might happen" or whatever other cute phrase you want to use) lawsuits. That's not cool.
smith058
100
Sep 24, 2015
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arithonAgreed... Saying that is not cool.
I just hope MD clearly defines the buying terms on any other drops like such.
arithon
273
Sep 24, 2015
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dylanmcTo be honest, I didn't get that tidbit about this not being production-ready from the description either. There were a few things that set up warning flags in my mind, but I was (and am) willing to wait a while for it to actually ship. In the interest of maintaining clarity, here's what I flagged:
In the Overview paragraph: "... has been completely re-imagined" <-- To me, this says that some significant changes were made.
In the first photo - the LCD screens. <-- Physical proof of case design changes; implied firmware and circuitry changes (can't see the changes in the photo, but having prototyped a few things, I know it needs to be done to be functional)
The close-up of the PCB in the "History" section <-- The processor part number MK20DX256. This is not the same processor used by my current Ergodox (an 8-bit AVR microcontroller), but is instead a 32-bit ARM Cortex M4 processor. Basically, it's an entirely different codebase - but I also knew that HaaTa (Jacob Alexander) had build other keyboards based off of this processor (I'd been working with a copy of his codebase already).
The overall picture of the PCB later on in the "Assembly" section. <-- There are two things here. 1. The traces on the PCB. These look like hand-drawn traces with no particular consideration for common design rules. It's not necessarily a bad thing (a lot of professional layout tools are still stuck in the 0/45/90-degree line ruleset, but that's a different topic - and rant - for another day), particularly when dealing with low-frequency stuff like what flies around inside the keyboard, but it makes me question whether or not proper routing was performed for the USB differential pair. 2. The PCB is partially populated. I've seen this step get screwed up so many times, in so many different ways (supplier can't get parts, or promises delivery on date <x> and then blows it)...
In the "Included" section: The fact that it's using an aluminum mounting plate, but acrylic for the rest of the case. Prototypes I've done in the past had problems with machining tolerances; it seems likely that MD would hit the same thing a time or two. Oh, and the Signature Plastics keycaps. As far as I'm concerned, they're perpetually late on things; I haven't had a single group buy from them come in on time. :)
Just to be clear, I'm not trying to bash the board, MassDrop, or you. Alex has done a pretty good job handling a bunch of disappointed customers (seriously, dude, thank you; I wouldn't have your patience.), and HaaTa and others have jumped in to give us details. These are just the things that I flagged as potential problems and so I assumed that there would be delays pushing the delivery date out. I certainly didn't expect this much of a push. I expected this - from the description - to be production-ready. Clearly, it wasn't. I wish that had been made clear in the description; it's great to have a prototype working, but there can be a world of hurt between that point and when you've actually got everything ready to roll off a production line.
In the Overview paragraph: "... has been completely re-imagined" <-- To me, this says that some significant changes were made.
In the first photo - the LCD screens. <-- Physical proof of case design changes; implied firmware and circuitry changes (can't see the changes in the photo, but having prototyped a few things, I know it needs to be done to be functional)
The close-up of the PCB in the "History" section <-- The processor part number MK20DX256. This is not the same processor used by my current Ergodox (an 8-bit AVR microcontroller), but is instead a 32-bit ARM Cortex M4 processor. Basically, it's an entirely different codebase - but I also knew that HaaTa (Jacob Alexander) had build other keyboards based off of this processor (I'd been working with a copy of his codebase already).
The overall picture of the PCB later on in the "Assembly" section. <-- There are two things here. 1. The traces on the PCB. These look like hand-drawn traces with no particular consideration for common design rules. It's not necessarily a bad thing (a lot of professional layout tools are still stuck in the 0/45/90-degree line ruleset, but that's a different topic - and rant - for another day), particularly when dealing with low-frequency stuff like what flies around inside the keyboard, but it makes me question whether or not proper routing was performed for the USB differential pair. 2. The PCB is partially populated. I've seen this step get screwed up so many times, in so many different ways (supplier can't get parts, or promises delivery on date <x> and then blows it)...
In the "Included" section: The fact that it's using an aluminum mounting plate, but acrylic for the rest of the case. Prototypes I've done in the past had problems with machining tolerances; it seems likely that MD would hit the same thing a time or two. Oh, and the Signature Plastics keycaps. As far as I'm concerned, they're perpetually late on things; I haven't had a single group buy from them come in on time. :)
Just to be clear, I'm not trying to bash the board, MassDrop, or you. Alex has done a pretty good job handling a bunch of disappointed customers (seriously, dude, thank you; I wouldn't have your patience.), and HaaTa and others have jumped in to give us details. These are just the things that I flagged as potential problems and so I assumed that there would be delays pushing the delivery date out. I certainly didn't expect this much of a push. I expected this - from the description - to be production-ready. Clearly, it wasn't. I wish that had been made clear in the description; it's great to have a prototype working, but there can be a world of hurt between that point and when you've actually got everything ready to roll off a production line.
Parak
89
Input Club
Sep 24, 2015
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arithonDifferential routing for USB (amongst other things) has been done since the 60% Infinity, and is of course present here too :)
Interestingly, arbitrary trace angles are actually better than the fixed 0/45/90 that you mentioned for high frequency signaling.
Interestingly, arbitrary trace angles are actually better than the fixed 0/45/90 that you mentioned for high frequency signaling.
arithon
273
Sep 25, 2015
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ParakYeah, I wasn't trying to say it wasn't properly routed; the design tool limitation of those angles is a rant for another day. That entire post was in response to a query; I was trying to show how I arrived at the conclusion of expecting delays. :)
elpeterson
213
Sep 25, 2015
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smith058Really? Infinity Keyboard, the second round of Infinity keyboard. Those were done the exact same way and oh look, they are also the ones doing this. I understand that you might feel upset for feeling mislead. But do your research man. And don't sit here and complain when you had ample time to back out of the drop. I didn't realize all the work that would go into the Infinity Keyboard drop (the 60%) and MassDrop happily refunded my order way after the drop was completed.
You could have easily sourced the parts yourself. But instead you want to have your cake (complain up and down about it) and eat it to (not vote with your wallet).
You could have easily sourced the parts yourself. But instead you want to have your cake (complain up and down about it) and eat it to (not vote with your wallet).
smith058
100
Sep 25, 2015
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elpetersonI'm not complaining, just pointing out the facts... Sorry that the facts are negative.
One little line in the description about it being a prototype would have prevented any negative griping from all users. It is MD's responsibility to proper portray the product being sold, not mine. In the United Stats a business cannot show one picture of an item and then give another unless the difference has been stated, the business would be the liable party in such a case, not the buyer. Sorry if you don't like that and want to blame it on me for "complaining" because I didn't do extensive research past the selling company it's self, but the buyer protection laws are there to protect me in such cases.
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Now other than the fact of not stating the product was still in a final prototype phase. Once I found out that it was, yes i was disappointed but MD is the ONLY place to get this keyboard so I gladly decided go a head and still get it. And I am very glad that MD has some quality control and has found the issues they have found and resolved those issues. I completely understand the aspects of doing business with many other companies and the daunting delays that should be expected when dealing with other countries. One little statement on the product description page would have made all these issues acceptable, without that statement, none of these mistakes are acceptable!
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>>>You could have easily sourced the parts yourself.
>Oh? wheres the blue prints, files, data sheets for me to be able to do this four five months ago? Still don't even have all of them now. HaaTa stated that they wont be released until the product ships...
So what are you talking about? At least I state facts.
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>>>But instead you want to have your cake (complain up and down about it) and eat it to (not vote with your wallet).
>Actually I want my keyboard and I want to use it too. And I did vote with my wallet, by supporting this product. I think the antique typewriter keyboard layout serves no modern day purpose and should be extinct with the mechanical typewriter itself.
elpeterson
213
Sep 28, 2015
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smith058Will update this more tomorrow. But this website has the parts list and PCB files and case info, its been around for several years now. This keyboard isn't new: http://ergodox.org. And here are the instructions: https://keyboard-configurator.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/assembly.php. First comment on that page was from over 900 days ago, I think that puts it past your 5 month timeline.
MassDrop isn't selling the product, they are an e-commerce middle man. The Infinity team is selling the keyboard. They are the ones fully responsible for the stuff you mentioned. And they did mention it. All over their development blog, github and other forums, including MassDrop, where they are incredibly active in.
So I am going to continue to say, do your research and be an educated consumer.
I will backpedal on this comment if you can show me any actual law that could be used against MassDrop. I'll give you until the keyboard arrives...so roughly 6 more months :-P
MassDrop isn't selling the product, they are an e-commerce middle man. The Infinity team is selling the keyboard. They are the ones fully responsible for the stuff you mentioned. And they did mention it. All over their development blog, github and other forums, including MassDrop, where they are incredibly active in.
So I am going to continue to say, do your research and be an educated consumer.
I will backpedal on this comment if you can show me any actual law that could be used against MassDrop. I'll give you until the keyboard arrives...so roughly 6 more months :-P
smith058
100
Sep 28, 2015
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elpetersonI cant believe I'm actually responding to such a lame response... But, I am...
First off I'm not buying the Ergodox, I'm buying an 'Infinity Ergodox' which are completely separate and is not over 900 days old...
And MD is doing the selling, and MD is the one that took my payment. That puts MD "fully responsible"...
"The Infinity team"'s website (first link below) does not even state that its still in a prototype phase....
Finally, I must be going to the wrong place because this "incredibly active" forum only has 2 voices with 3 posts ???? ( second link below) . http://input.club/devices/keyboards/infinity-ergodox http://input.club/forums/topic/infinity-ergodox-update
"The Infinity team"'s website (first link below) does not even state that its still in a prototype phase....
Finally, I must be going to the wrong place because this "incredibly active" forum only has 2 voices with 3 posts ???? ( second link below) . http://input.club/devices/keyboards/infinity-ergodox http://input.club/forums/topic/infinity-ergodox-update
Human
32
Sep 28, 2015
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smith058"Do your research", "you knew there were going to be delays" "didn't you know how the previous drops went?" "if you knew anything, you would know that the same guys that made the other keyboard made this keyboard, so you should expect delays" The fanboys are strong with this one, and there was no evidence to anyone that isn't a massive fanboy to have known this was an unfinished product and massive delays would be a risk. It is enlightening to see that people new to massdrop or the mechanical keyboard community are readily unwelcomed and flamed for being misled, there was no evidence that there were going to be delays, or that the product was this unfinished. I will continue to wait for my ergodox, and I will likely purchase a second, but there's a problem with the fanboys, they're overtly unabashedly critical of newcomers.
elpeterson
213
Sep 28, 2015
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HumanI'm not fanboy, I backed out of the Infinity 60% of this for the exact reason. I joined a drop within doing any research and after the drop finished I realized how much of a project it would be. Because thats what I learned after doing research, the Infinity team sells projects first, keyboards second.
I joined this drop realizing this and with that realization came a realistic set of expectations.
I'm not critical of newcomers, I'm critical of people not taking a few minutes out of their day to go, hmm what is this Infinity Keyboard, let me see what this is all about. Versus going off a 5 paragraph summary.
I joined this drop realizing this and with that realization came a realistic set of expectations.
I'm not critical of newcomers, I'm critical of people not taking a few minutes out of their day to go, hmm what is this Infinity Keyboard, let me see what this is all about. Versus going off a 5 paragraph summary.
Dram
35
Sep 28, 2015
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dragon788No.
As stated many times before, we are on Massdrop, a website where we can do mass drop orders of finished products. On this website we do not expect to do some kickstarter funding, and this kind of project should not be on this website.
In case of some guys have mistaken of website and though that Massdrop is a good place to make about crowfunding their project, it should be explicitly written than there is no finished product, as the contrary of any other drop on this website.
That's the main problem about this drop, that's why many people are complaining about the shipping delay.
OlivierPons
243
Sep 29, 2015
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DramI would say the same.
- Ok = "drop ends now, you'll get your keyboard in 6 months"
- Not ok = "drop ends now, you'll get your keyboard in 2 months" and 3 months later people are still waiting
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