Kizer Ki4456A1 River Cat Frame Lock Knife Discussions | Drop

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Kizer Ki4456A1 River Cat Frame Lock Knife

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Kizer Ki4456A1 River Cat Frame Lock Knife

DougFLA123

1404

Feb 17, 2018

No lockbar insert?

DrewDel

124

Feb 18, 2018

DougFLA123It's a cheap knife... It can't have all the bells and whistles. I'm surprised it has a LBS, high end materials. (S35VN & Ti), custom pivot, ceramic ball bearings, & TWO methods of deployment. (They didn't have to add the thumb studs since it's already a flipper.) Also, the frame/liner lock knives I've had, that were made out of steel and titanium, never had sticking issues. The only time was one that had a Ti blade and lock bar, and it was very minimal and infrequent. They might even carbidize the lock face, and/or the locking face of the blade, to prevent the sticking issue. For $99, I wouldn't count it against it. Although you get all those high-end features/materials because it's made in China; which is a negative.

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Kavik

5531

Feb 18, 2018

DrewDelFWIW, I've recently bought a few knives through here that were made in China, it's not ALWAYS a negative. That sort of stereotyping has to go. Own one Kizer, one WE, 2 BesTech (and one more on the way) So far they all exceed expectations and build quality is as nice or nicer than any of my other knives. Yes, even including ones made right here in the "good ol' USofA"
The Kizer I got is the GPB1 (also S35VN, also titanium frame, same price point). That one happens to run on washers rather than bearings, but it does have a steel lock bar insert. After a little polishing of the PB washers, and oiling things up with some Hoppe's No9 oil, it really is physically flawless. It won't see much use, because the size on that one is absurd for anything I need a pocket knife for, which is unfortunate....but based on the build quality of this one I'm definitely keeping an eye out for other Kizers to try

DougFLA123

1404

Feb 18, 2018

DrewDelI guess I was just a little surprised that it had all those bells and whistles and no lock bar insert. It is inexpensive on this site, but most websites sell it for close to $200 and it lists for $275. For that kind of money they could have thrown in a lock bar insert. The past couple of months, prices on Kizer knives, especially on this website, have really being slashed (no pun intended).

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DougFLA123

1404

Feb 18, 2018

KavikI agree, I have some incredible knives that are made in China...WE, Reate, Rike, Bestech, Kizer...really great quality, and beautiful knives!

DrewDel

124

Feb 18, 2018

KavikWhat I was getting at was even though I said it was a cheap knife, that since it's made in China, the $99 price tags puts it more in the midrange for Chinese knives, so maybe it SHOULD have come with a lock face insert. The issue I have with Chinese knives is that the quality is either REALLY shitty for a cheap price, or the quality is pretty nice but the price is super expensive. Reate, WE, Stedemon, CKF, Liong Mah, Rike, etc all have knives between $300-1300, depending on the "dress." People can't use the "iPhone rebuttal," because iPhones are manufactured by a Chinese company, for a non-Chinese company; a la Apple. These knives are manufactured by a Chinese company, for a Chinese company. Spending ~$1000 for a Chinese knife is crazy, considering it's being made for dirt cheap. I don't know if you've heard of John Grimsmo, but he makes super high quality knives, with exceptional fit & finish, holding extremely tight ("unnecessarily" tight) tolerances; and he's doing it for much cheaper than most other custom knife makers that aren't leveraging the CNC tech that John does. He manufactures 100% of the knife, along with ALL components of the knives from RAW STOCK; except for the ceramic bearings for the IKBS. He machines all the screws, the pivot, and even the plastic cages for the IKBS balls! I don't believe that there's ANY other custom knife maker that's machining the screws, the IKBS components, nor the pivot from raw stock. They usually buy those items from companies like AKS. (If you don't already, you should check John & Eric Grimsmo out on YouTube. They've got a great channel, along with a weekly podcast with John Saunders who also has a great YouTube channel.) The knives that Grimsmo makes are leaps and bounds above the ones coming out of China, for not much more money. I think that those knives are priced MUCH higher than they should be. Charging $450 for a knife they made for $30, is disgusting. (FYI: I have done extensive research on manufacturing in China, both historically, practically, and conceptually. I had performed the research on several occasions for both school, and when attempting to bring a product to market. I learned so much about just how cheap they manufacture goods for. For example, if you can buy a Chinese product at your local dollar store for $5, since that product went through 2-3 middle men, it boards much less than you think. That means the factory sold it for around $0.859, the first middleman sells it for $2.25, and the second middleman sells it to the dollar store for $3.50, and then the dollar store sells it for the $5.00. So if it's being sold by the factory for $0.859, that means it's costing the factory $0.459 to make it. (The actual cost of things like labor, raw materials, business expenses, R&D, etc. to manufacture the product. So they'd be making around $0.859-0.459=$0.400. It's costing them around 10%, of the retail cost, to manufacture it. The margin on other products can be much higher than 90% too. It's crazy.)
I am of the mentality where I save my money to buy the best item I can, and I would rather have one or two really nice units than tons of shitty ones. Some people would either, rather have 15 $70 Spyderco knives or buy one $70 Spyderco knife, and save the other $1000 but keep having to buy new knives because they break or are mistreated because they don't have much value, and they end up spending the same amount of money on the those replacement knives rather than a couple $500 knives, even though it's the same cost.
That's just how i feel about the whole situation. Have a great rest of the weekend!

Kavik

5531

Feb 18, 2018

DrewDelI have stumbled across Grimsmo on YouTube, very interesting stuff to watch. I'm impressed with what I've seen him work on and how much info he shares.....but not much more money? A quick search shows me most of those go a grand and up used, no clue what they retail for because they don't list prices, you have to sign up and be picked from a random drawing to have a chance to buy one? Weird...
Anyway, I'm not sure i see the point in that long post in relation to this situation? We're obviously not looking at a $1300 Chinese knife here. Nor are we comparing a $100 knife to a $1,000+ semi-custom. I understand that there is a lot of super cheap stuff that's then sold at incredible markups, i just mean to say that we're seeing a lot more in the "fairly priced and high quality" mid-range stuff nowadays too. Obviously it's costing them under $100 to make these if they're selling for this price here. But i'm confident enough in saying this isn't a 90% markup situation we're talking about here. Ending a comment by simply saying 'made in China is an automatic negative' (to paraphrase) just perpetuates the negative stereotypes for those who skim reviews/comments for the most repeated responses. (and this isn't just directly aimed at you, i see this over and over again in every drop here featuring Chinese knives, not to mention other sites and reviews for knives and other products)
Like I said, my GPB1 was a $100 knife here (retails around $200 on other sites I believe). I haven't done much with it yet, but from having it apart twice, playing with it a bunch, making a couple test cuts, and just feeling it in hand....I can't imagine I'm EVER going to have to replace this because it breaks because it's not a $500 knife.
Unrelated to any particular knife, or brand, or this drop, my general feeling is this: Regardless of where it's made, a knife is a knife, and materials are materials. $500? $1,000? $1,500? At those prices, I don't care if it's made in China or USA, mass produced or hand made one by one, there's a ceiling somewhere.....at some point no amount of money is going to make a knife better than it already is. At some point you're paying for frills, or a name, or for marketing, or some other false sense of value (scarcity, limited edition, serialized first runs, etc, etc) .
I don't own any $500 knives myself, but if we're talking production knives, not something hand forged or completely 1 of a kind custom jobs, my guess is that's already past the ceiling
Hope you have a pleasant weekend as well :)

DocZZZ

233

Feb 18, 2018

Kaviki think you hit it on the head, the key is "production knives". as much as people poo poo chinese manufacturing, some of it is very well deserved, but its also made leaps and bounds from what it used to be. you have a whole scale of chinese manufacturing nowadays. to be honest alot of the cheapest low end manufacturing has left china because the minimum wage is too high and all those factories have moved to places like bangladesh and myanmar.
but high end production in china has made leaps and bounds. you can say apple's manufacturer, foxconn, is an exception because its "made for an american company" but thats kind of a misleading statement. thats kind of claiming chinese companies dont understand that to make morey they have to make a good product. heck, heres an article that i was reading yesterday about the meteoric rise of science/research in china. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/18/china-great-leap-forward-science-research-innovation-investment-5g-genetics-quantum-internet
i think @kavik hit the nail right on the head here with his "production knives" statement. thats what we're looking at here and its unfair to compare otherwise.

Kavik

5531

Feb 18, 2018

DocZZZHaven't got time to finish that whole thing right this moment, but what I have skimmed through looks very interesting. Thanks for sharing the link :)

Axeguy

1372

May 4, 2018

KavikYeah, it’s big/deep but the blade is way below the plane of the handle which makes it great for slicing food, etc.

Seems like all of John Gray’s designs are like this: keepin’ the knuckles off the cutting board. I love the way the pivot base doubles as an overtravel arrestor; now THAT is an elegant solution. A hundred bucks to Kizer for an eight-hundred dollar John Gray design...

Axeguy

1372

May 4, 2018

KavikI crossed that 500 dollar ceiling. Know what happened? I crossed the 1,000 ceiling... It’s like anything, really: You get used to it and want more. Thankfully, most pricey knives have some value you can recover...and that’s what I’m doing now. I’m selling. I don’t regret the experience too much and I don’t feel ‘screwed’. I got to meet a lot of great knowledgeable people and I definitely know what works for me And know that I usually don’t have to cross the 300 dollar mark to be entirely satisfied. Did you all get in on the Tashi collab? That’s the kind of knife that’ll give you the high end feel and experience without ending your marriage or selling a kidney (or giving that kidney to Her Lawyer, etc.)! Thanks for your time.

Kavik

5531

May 4, 2018

AxeguyI did order the Tashi, can't wait to get my hands on it. That currently marks the highest price point I've spent on a single pocket knife (within just a few short months of breaking the $150 ceiling, which came weeks after pushing past $120 lol)
For real though, I still don't see myself getting into going much higher than that on a regular basis. Maybe the OCCASIONAL splurge, but not going to start collecting in that range. I fell lucky that something finally clicked on my head, and my buying has started to wane again....for now