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beean
13
Mar 7, 2017
Don't market this as a safety tool. True avalanche shovels are required to be high strength as avalanche debris sets hard as ice. This sets a very dangerous precedent. The general public already has little to no avalanche awareness, as a trusted retailer of outdoor goods please don't try and take advantage of this.
Edit: I originally commented this when Massdrop first had this product on sale. It's pretty clear they don't care given that it's back on sale.
Motorrad
2898
Jan 4, 2018
beeanAlloy model...
beean
13
Jan 4, 2018
MotorradMetal breaks too. Metal shovels break in avalanche debris. This isn't an avalanche rescue shovel, it hasn't been designed for this purpose. Here's a fun thread to read about the sturdiness of cheap 'avalanche' shovels.
https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/316762-Tip-for-shovel-bargain
Your comment simply confirms that the general public has little to no avalanche awareness.
Motorrad
2898
Jan 4, 2018
beean"Your comment simply confirms that the general public has little to no avalanche awareness. " whoa there pal, back off the smug sanctimony. Maybe the cheapness of this tool is not as apparent if one has not actually seen it. All your comment shows is that you read post on the internet. Seriously. Don't turn into a troll. Don't go to the darkside.
beean
13
Jan 5, 2018
MotorradSmug or not, the point remains valid.
If you're willing to throw your uninformed hat into the ring you'd better be willing to accept someone calling you out on it.
So now hopefully you're going to educate yourself to prove me wrong. That's a good thing, because it's going to mean one more informed guy getting around in the winter. Hopefully that also means that the next time you see someone showing up for a tour with a flimsy shovel you can let them know what you've learnt.
Motorrad
2898
Jan 5, 2018
beeanCalling me out? Haha. Whatever you need to tell yourself, internet hero. You give yourself way too much credit.
I have actually pulled people out so get off your high horse. I have not had to want for BCA gear for a while. If this gear sucks than so be it. That's all that needs to be said. ...but keep trolling if it satisfies your ego. Last word to you...puff yourself up real good now...
beean
13
Jan 5, 2018
MotorradYou say you understand the importance of quality avalanche gear. You've even had the unfortunate chance to implement your partner rescue skills. So why endorse a sub par shovel? It doesn't make any sense, I'm confused.
Why revive this discussion after 43 weeks?
You may call me names and imagine the size of my ego but you're not disputing any of my points. Are trolls folks who advocate avalanche awareness and stress the importance of having adequate safety gear? Or people who present opinions that seem to be largely uninformed and take exception to being told otherwise?
Motorrad
2898
Jan 5, 2018
beeanI did not 'endorse' this shovel. Just because I was not jumping up and down decrying the inferiority of this gear to my BCA tools does not make an endorsement. I'm sorry if that does not work with your current stubborn narrative.
I should point out that you started with the "name calling" as you were making assumptions about 'the uninformed general public'... Etc.
There are much better ways of making your point than being dismisive, arrogant and rude(just another flavor of trolling).
Ok so maybe I didn't give you the last word.
beean
13
Jan 5, 2018
MotorradYou've already admitted that you're aware of the deficiencies of this product. Despite this, you did suggest in your first post that it's suitable for avalanche rescue. It's the only assumption I could draw from you telling me about the materials it's made from. If it wasn't, why post?
As for making assumptions about the lack of avalanche awareness in the general public, it's not an assumption. Ask any educator in the field. That's why the CAA and Avalanche Canada started campaigning hard for more education in recent years. I can only assume that the American organisations are doing the same.
Every one of your posts subsequent to your first has just been attacking me. So ultimately, why revive this post from 43 weeks ago if you're as knowledgeable as you say you are? I suspect it's just to get a rise out of me and now you cry foul when you got when you wanted.
ClusterFlux
28
Jan 6, 2018
beeanAnd it's on sale yet again... They definitely don't care or read the discussions. I contacted customer "support" with a pretty strongly worded message. Selling these things as an "avalanche" shovel and passing it off as life safety equipment is completely negligent.
DannyMilks
4557
Jan 10, 2018
ClusterFlux@beean @ClusterFlux (and FYI @Motorrad @Hearst) Thanks for posting about this issue. Avalanche safety is obviously important, and getting the proper gear for going into avalanche territory is clearly vital. However, energy might be better directed at Komperdell for naming it an Avalanche shovel, as that is something we can't change, and you clearly disagree with.
That being said, like you pointed out, metal blades are generally recommended over lexan blades for actual avalanche safety. However, that doesn't mean that lexan blades don't have a place, and here are a few thoughts on that:
First, the technology has been improving and today's models are better than what was introduced into the market over the last 10-20 years.
Second, the manufacturer is an important aspect. Komperdell is not some random company making cheap knock-offs. They produce generally high quality, well designed gear. Yes, lexan shovels are usually more affordable than metal, but that can be explained by manufacturing process and not necessarily the quality.
Third, lexan does have advantages over metal. For example, when spring skiing where one's likely to see a slide avalanche and not a slab, one might be better of with a lexan shovel that wouldn't get stuck with wet, sticky snow.
Fourth, if people are generally poorly informed about avalanche safety, as repeatedly proclaimed here, then the debate of metal vs. lexan is moot. At least they have a shovel, which is one step better than people who head into the backcountry without one. There are likely far more important things to focus on to improve safety, that will have far greater impact, then trying to convince people that lexan blades are unfit.
Fifth, lexan shovels are generally more affordable, and following up on the point above, I'd prefer someone buy and carry a handy shovel rather than not buy one due to cost prohibitions. Consider that some people are going out on cross country skis or snowshoes and aren't themselves going into avalanche terrain, but they might be able to access if others get caught and help out.
I'm not opposed to us changing the text of our product description, but I do feel like your position on this is very hardlined, and rarely are their times when one can make a blanket statement like 'lexan blades should never be used for avalanche safety'. So while metal might be more recommended than lexan, I still find that there is sufficient reason to be able to describe these just as the manufacturer has - a snow shovel that has many uses, including potentially with avalanche safety.
I'm thrilled you're posting here and trying to do your part about education our community and staff, and I hope you'll continue posting and sharing. You clearly have a wealth of knowledge and a sense of concern. Thank you all.