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mechanica
32
Apr 27, 2018
This is literally a Space Gray WhiteFox. With RGB because GAAAAMMMMIIINNNNNGGGG performance.
whomad1215
755
Apr 27, 2018
mechanicaand two usb c ports.
pomk
97
Apr 27, 2018
mechanicaAlso GMK compatibility is overrated it seems :’D What use is there for a ’high quality’ keyboard, if it does not support high quality keycaps? The switches are the wrong way around making this OEM/SA only keyboard.
nedwards
175
Apr 27, 2018
pomkDoes switch orientation matter for Cherry profile compatibility if the LEDs are surface-mounted on the PCB? I thought the issue was that the caps would rub on the LED and cause problems, but that's irrelevant if the LEDs are below the switch.
pomk
97
Apr 27, 2018
nedwardsSadly yes. The cap hits the taller side of the switch itself, making it feel a bit mushy and sound less crisp. You can easily test this on any board by just flipping some caps on the shift row.
BlueCrowned
5305
Apr 27, 2018
pomkI don't see any reason this keyboard wouldn't work with any Cherry MX keycaps? If you have an issue with the switches, it's hot swappable...
LevelSteam
Apr 27, 2018
pomkJust tried it on my k-type with Halo Clears that are in the same orientation as this board and a GMK Honeywell cap. There's no difference in feel or measurable reduction in travel. I think you're thinking of the issue caused with GMK/Cherry profile caps and some LEDs.
BlueCrowned
5305
Apr 27, 2018
LevelSteamthank you for clearing this up for sure, I have laser coming and I want this board like crazy
pomk
97
Apr 27, 2018
LevelSteamShift row? Tap them and there is a definite difference in sound. Any switches that have reduced travel of course do not show this phenomenon and it might be entirely possible that halo clear’s 3,7mm travel is short enough for this not to be observed. Try it out with some switches that have full 4mm travel.
pomk
97
Apr 27, 2018
BlueCrownedI’m afraid that hot swapping will not allow me to rotate the switches by 180 degrees.
john.yu
632
Apr 27, 2018
pomkHey everyone, we haven't experienced the issues described here, and not sure if there's more information. However, we just did a quick check using GMK keycaps on one of our pre-production units, and there's no perceptible difference. https://youtu.be/atQsdXZRs9o Perhaps the issue that's being described is from through-hole LEDs? (this keyboard uses SMT LEDs)
pomk
97
Apr 27, 2018
john.yudid you use full travel switches? which ones? Just re checked with gmk plum and gateron browns (no leds) and the most prominent row with the mushy feeling was the home row (remembered somehow that it was the shift row, sorry about that). Absolutely clear difference in sound and feel. The keys do press down and do not bind, as in the above video, but the sound and feel is _clearly_ different if you flip the caps around.
john.yu
632
Apr 27, 2018
pomkThis unit had Kailh BOX Black switches on them.
BlueCrowned
5305
Apr 27, 2018
pomkWhy would you ever flip the caps around though?
pomk
97
Apr 27, 2018
BlueCrownedto simulate flipping the switches of course
pomk
97
Apr 27, 2018
john.yuBox blacks have a travel of 3,7mm and not full 4 mm. This will likely mask the problem. Please try with switches that have a travel of 4 mm.
LevelSteam
Apr 27, 2018
pomkYup. Tried it with the shift row (R4) and R3 keycaps (just to be sure) with no discernible difference. I use a board with Cherry MX Clears that has top oriented 2x3x4mm LEDs that doesn't seem suffer from this either. Or maybe I just suck at noticing it? I'll look into it more but currently I'm just not running into any issues with GMK caps unless they have the 3mm round flange-less LEDs in them.
pomkI've done a few more tests with a few switches we have lying around - Halo Trues, Halo Clears, and Zealios 65g Tactiles.
So far, I've not noticed any clear difference on the home row with the keycaps in either orientation. Are there other switches you think I should find to test with?
pomk
97
Apr 27, 2018
YanboWuZealios should show the problem, the other switches you listed do not have a full length of travel. The difference is not extreme, but a bit like having a very thin o-ring added to the keycap.
This problem is why all high quality custom boards are built with the switches in the correct orientation (as cherry intended them to be used).
LevelSteam
Apr 27, 2018
pomkSo I tried it again on my main board the top facing LEDs and MX Clears and I can feel the keycap hitting on the switch housing, while a board with south facing LEDs (and no LEDs) it bottoms out naturally. So you're right and that does seem to be a thing with the standard Cherry switches.
I will say I have to really, really pay attention to feel it though, and it doesn't affect the sound enough for it to bother me so it could very well be a non-issue for most people. Still, cool of you to point it out either way. I know there are a lot of purists in the community and depending on what types of switches they want to use in the board it might be an issue :)
Of course now that I'm aware of it I'll probably never not be able notice it again haha.
pomk
97
Apr 27, 2018
LevelSteamThanks for the post, makes me feel less paranoid about this thing. The effect it has on the sound varies a bit from one board to the next one, high pinging boards tend to produce the largest difference.
LevelSteam
Apr 27, 2018
BlueCrownedI didn't feel the issue pomk described with my Halos but I after messing around with a different board I can feel it with my Cherry switches. It's almost imperceptible though imo, so I'd say you'll be fine. I know I'm still planning on putting my Laser caps on a board with upside down Kailhs.
I probably wouldn't use silenced switches in that orientation with GMK caps though since it would probably make them clacky and defeat the purpose.
BlueCrowned
5305
Apr 27, 2018
LevelSteamI might get Hako switches for mine if I do buy one so it may wind up being a non issue.. either way I know I want box switches of some kind. Debating box whites or navy too
LevelSteam
Apr 27, 2018
BlueCrownedI'm using Laser with Box Navys. They're sooooooooo satisfying!
Personally I like the feel of the Halo switches more than the Hako. They feel just a smidge more tactile to me.
BlueCrowned
5305
Apr 27, 2018
LevelSteamI really like box switches in general which is why I wanted to try Hako
pomk
97
Apr 27, 2018
BlueCrownedAll box switches have a travel of just 3,7mm, which makes them unaffected of this problem :-)
HotRoderX
753
May 3, 2018
nedwardsissue in question is with certain types of LED"s and GMK key caps. I personally can't find a difference my self. Though people say row 3 is the only row affected. I would assume peoples mileage very's I have even seen some people that can pick modded switch out of a bunch via spring weights of 10 gram's... so yea some people are just more sensitive.
pomk
97
May 3, 2018
HotRoderXLEDs are usually a problem only if the LEDs are facing down, not up. There is actually _more_ room for the LED if the switch is oriented as in this keyboard. The problems is most definitely with the switch housing hitting the cap. Some people are not so sensitive, and you do need full travel switches to be able to even notice it.
One could easily saw a keycap in half and photograph how the switch hits the cap. Sadly I don´t wish to ruin my GMK sets. Someone at massdrop will likely have some spare r3 GMK keycaps to cut open and photograph with full travel switches in all orientations with and without LEDs (even though LEDs are not a problem on this kb as they are surface mounted). @YanboWu @john.yu
edit: took a video from the side of an ansi enter key. A direct side angle would be better, but even from this angle you can see the switch housing rubbing against the inner wall of the keycap (Gmk plum in this case) https://youtu.be/PSg6zvLzOO0
LevelSteam
May 3, 2018
pomkActually yeah I can do this later today. I have a couple row 4 (shift row/bottom row) height "novelties" laying around. I'll cut one and test with the various switches I have in different orientations. I have some 2x3x4 LEDs an 3mm flange-less that I can test with too. I'll post the findings in a separate talk post and link it here when it's done.
LevelSteam
May 4, 2018
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