Massdrop CTH + SDAC DAC/Amp Discussions | Drop

Oct 25, 2017

HeliosiahCTH does not have enough output power for HD650.
Which Schiit stack are you looking at? Modi3 may be enough to power HD650 tollerably, but the Modi2, even uber, won't be much better than the CTH.

Oct 25, 2017

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DanLe

219

Oct 25, 2017

HeliosiahFrom the description section of the drop: " It’s quiet enough for sensitive headphones like the Massdrop x Fostex TH-X00 and powerful enough for higher-impedance headphones like the Massdrop x Sennheiser HD 6XX. "
Heefty - Would you be able to explain why it doesn't have enough output power for the HD650?

Oct 25, 2017

tessierpg

Oct 25, 2017

HeeftyFirst of all the CTH has plenty of power for the HD650. The HD650 doesn't need a lot of power to drive it to high levels, it is rated at 103db/1V. It just needs an amp that has the capability to drive 300ohms+ (at certain frequencies the HD650 goes higher than 300 ohms) with a bit more voltage than conparable lower impedance headphones. Rest assured this CTH amp is powerful enough for the HD650 to become deaf! Second, Modi is not an amp, it’s a DAC and there is no such thing as a Modi 3, at least not yet. The corresponding amp is called Magni, and the latest iteration is the Magni 3, which replaces the Magni2 Uber.

Oct 25, 2017

Oct 25, 2017

tessierpgSorry I used the wrong name for the amp. I really don't know or care about schitt's product lineup. I just know magni and modi are commonly sought after together but not which is which off hand. I'm referring to the amp not the DAC, obviously.
As for power I'm referring to the unexpected artifacts of driving a signal too close to an amp's power rails or whatever portion of that it can drive out. If you don't also have some overhead on your amp relative to where you listen it will clip/distort the signal and that is not ideal. I can hear it clearly at 10V (mangi 2 levels) but much less at 12V (magni3 levels) and I don't listen all that loud.

Oct 25, 2017

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Oct 25, 2017

DanLeFully driven for HD650 requires something more akin to >250mWrms@300Ω. This amp can put 167mWrms@300Ω. It might be sufficient if you're listening at low volumes (60dB-70dB, but its going to start clipping out if you turn up the volume too much.

Oct 25, 2017

tessierpg

Oct 25, 2017

HeeftyI may live on a different planet than you, but I manage well with my HD6xx driven at 300 ohms nominal with less than 25mw of power (and less than 6v, all in).

Oct 25, 2017

Oct 25, 2017

tessierpgYou're talking RMS volume levels not the peaks though. If you're listening quietly it's probably fine. Apparently what I consider not "all that loud" is enough to push many tracks over what a 10V amp can drive. Maybe I need to reconsider that... I basically just turn it up loud enough that the clarity and instrument separation comes into itself though, so I don't think I'll be going any lower in volume.
Only question remaining is if you've tried to AB compare between a more powerful amplifier. I unfortunately have had them on hand to do the comparison, so perhaps my perspective is just skewed based on that. If you don't do the comparison you might not know the difference and will probably be happy with what you've got (which is great unless you like audio being a damned expensive hobby :-\ ).

Oct 25, 2017

tessierpg

Oct 25, 2017

HeeftyThe only amps I have to drive headphones are the O2 and the Audioquest DFR and both amps suit me fine, I see no need for more powerful headphone amps with my Senns, sorry

Oct 25, 2017

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Oct 25, 2017

tessierpgAnd you won't see the need until you've tried them. Staying out of the rabbit hole hurts your wallet a whole lot less.

Oct 25, 2017

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Oct 25, 2017

tessierpgWe've talked about this before tessierpg, your logic have been debunked already. Because 1) nobody listens at quiet volumes like you do and 2) there are people who listen to more dynamic genres than you; Basically, your preferences do not apply to other people. Again, at 25mW, you don't want to be listening louder than 70dB. With the CTH, it would let you listen at 78dB without clipping. And Heefty is right about 250mW@300ohms being optimal, because although you can drive them 105mW @ 300ohms at generally accepted best listening volume of 80dB, you'll need 2x to 4x that for optimal THD levels.

Oct 25, 2017

Speartongue

Oct 26, 2017

JackulaSo what amp would be fine to listen adequately at 80-85db??

Oct 26, 2017

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Oct 26, 2017

SpeartongueI suggest a Aune T1se (you can find on Massdrop for $200 from time to time). Otherwise the Schiit stack is the community favorite here, but to me the Aune sounds much better.

Oct 26, 2017

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alexmcf1985

Oct 27, 2017

HeeftyBullshit

Oct 27, 2017

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Oct 27, 2017

alexmcf1985I'm sure you can hear my applause for your witty rebuttal to one of my posts from wherever you are. Bravo! Well done!
Your IQ is showing, btw.

Oct 27, 2017

alexmcf1985

Oct 27, 2017

HeeftyWhatever you say bullshiter

Oct 27, 2017

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kxrider85

100

Oct 27, 2017

Heeftytake a look at this: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/headphone-sensitivity-power-requirements-compared.476345/ I am thinking this amp is just perfect for driving these headphones... barely ;)

Oct 27, 2017

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Oct 27, 2017

kxrider85As near as I can tell those numbers come from theoretical calculations of the minimum power you need to get to the target sound pressure. If you read my posts, you'll notice that I say you need some overhead to avoid clipping the signal off or running into distortions near its rails. It's the overhead that this amp doesn't cover. If you're barely covering the minimum, you don't have enough overhead.

Oct 27, 2017

Speartongue

Oct 27, 2017

HeeftyI ordered the recent O2+SDAC drop not knowing this and i'll get to compare first hand since i'll be on the lookout for another amp with more mW at 300ohm.

Oct 27, 2017

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kxrider85

100

Oct 27, 2017

Heeftythat post showed the power it takes to drive the headphones at 120db. That is way above a normal listening volume.

Oct 27, 2017

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alexmcf1985

Oct 27, 2017

kxrider85Exactly 120db are extreme listening levels no one listens at that volume.

Oct 27, 2017

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tessierpg

Oct 27, 2017

HeeftyI understand your point, but I doubt that you need that much overhead with the HD650 or for any other headphone. The calculations listed on head-fi above are extreme. Do you know what is 120db? Even on peaks 120db is not sustainable by human ears. Well, if you compare this volume to let’s say a AC-DC concert in a large hockey stadium, maybe, but it makes no sense inside a Headphone, unless you want to become deaf. You wouldnt to go an AC-DC stadium concert a few hours a day every day...I know some have indicated that my listening habits tend to somewhat lower volumes, and it is partially true. But even at high volumes at close to 7v output I cannot understand that you would need more volume than the O2 amp may provide, transient peaks included. I do accept the fact that here are better amps on the market and maybe they would benefit the HD650/6xx, but I do not concur that you need more power to the HD650/6xx than what the O2 may provide, at high (6.9v limit) gain. Even the low gain mode (2.4x if I recall) is enough and preferable in most cases, if the input is 2v like most Cd players and dacs. I use the high gain mode (6.5x) when listening to the music provided by my Onkyo Network stereo receiver, which has a line out of only 1v rms.

Oct 27, 2017

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kxrider85

100

Oct 27, 2017

alexmcf1985It takes 166 Mhz to drive the HD 650 at 120db. I tried digging around the internet to do the exact calculation but I could not find it (maybe I'll ask the physics stack exchange sometime) but intensity, which is directly proportional to power, is logarithmically proportional to its volume/loudness. Therefore it takes (much) less power to drive the headphones at a more reasonable volume like 70 or 80 decibels. An SPL much higher than that would be damaging.

Oct 27, 2017

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Oct 27, 2017

kxrider85 And well above where anyone would listen if they had any sense. There's transients in most every track that can hit 120dB and above from normal RMS listening levels (90dB on the loud side) though, especially if you're listening to 24-bit MQA since it likely won't get cut off at the recording phase. If 120dB is all you can hit you're going to get those near rail artifacts that I'm talking about.

Oct 27, 2017

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Oct 27, 2017

alexmcf1985Listening levels refers to the RMS value though. Not the Peak values. You must cover your peaks with some overhead not just your peaks.

Oct 27, 2017

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Oct 27, 2017

kxrider85I believe you mean 166mW, but you're still conflating a RMS value to a peak. 166mW amp can drive to just barely 120dB but that's going to put the signal against the rails hence the non-linear artifacts.
If you go up to a 250mW amp gets you to 121.6dBpeak but gives you 2V+ of overhead before you get to the rails so you'll still be linear on the transients.

Oct 27, 2017

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Oct 27, 2017

tessierpgThat 120dB doesn't get sustained or it would damage your hearing. You're conflating RMS with Peak. We're talking about an AC signal getting amplified so you must consider both. The RMS level you're sitting at could be described as the perceived volume level or sustained sound pressure impacting your ears. It's not static though.

Oct 27, 2017

tessierpg

Oct 27, 2017

HeeftyRead me again, I was talking about 120db, even for peaks.

Oct 27, 2017

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Oct 27, 2017

tessierpgI did read you. You're saying that since an amp can reach 120dB it will and it will stay there at all times and that's bad for your hearing.
That's definitely true if you're listening at 120dB RMS but if your peaks are hitting 120dB you're probably actually listening at around 90dB which is loud but probably not damaging unless you're doing so for sustained periods of time.

Oct 27, 2017

tessierpg

Oct 27, 2017

tessierpgLet’s just say we agree to disagree. These peaks you are talking about would never approach 120db even if I was a mad music freak. Your are simply on another planet than were I am in this whole discussion.

Oct 27, 2017

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Oct 27, 2017

tessierpgNwAvGuy shows peaks reaching 114dB with RMS at 80dB, so it's certainly possible to hit 120dB if your RMS was 86dB on the same track.
Also we never talked about sustained peaks, that would be your RMS, using the 114dB peak for example, it would peak for less than a split second, which you are unlikely to even hear it. But if it clips, what you end up with is harmonic distortion.

Oct 27, 2017

tessierpg

Oct 27, 2017

JackulaYeah right if you record a bee flying at 1feet of you and then a trio of f-16 taking off the runaway at 10ft of you... using a 32 bit recorder ... and then you try to maintain that same dynamic range in your 500$ headphones ... It’s simply overrated. Even a 100,000$ home cinema with multi subwoofers can’t do it 1:1. In real life, no need for that much peak power for a headphone such as the Hd650.

Oct 27, 2017

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Oct 27, 2017

tessierpgI don't know if you're being serious or just trolling at this stage because you can't offer up any meaningful counter arguments. But let's use your example for a moment: a jet taking off is 150dB at 80 feet, we don't know what the peak is, this is the RMS, this means at 1 ft the volume is going to be about 178, which you'll need about 125 gigawatts of power to achieve. Your HD650 would blow up at 500mW. It's not a valid example. 500mW would instead give you 125dB of headroom, allowing you a listening volume of 90dB....
178dB and 90dB RMS, hardly a sensible example. It has nothing to do with a 1:1 dynamic range, more like if you were to listen to a jet taking off on your headphones, it would be scaled down to 80dB RMS with 115dB headroom.

Oct 27, 2017

tessierpg

Oct 27, 2017

JackulaMy example was simply a vue of the mind, a caricature. My point is that you don’t need that much power and you don’t need to reach 110db, 120db or more even in peak power unless you plan to go deaf any soon. But it’s your own prerogative. The HD650 headphone needs an amp that manages up to 400-500 ohms at certain frequencies. That’s all. Any moderately powered headphone amp will do in terms if power. Some will sonically do better, but for me no need to go louder. YMMV. If you need a 100w under 300 ohms to be happy, then be my guest. I just won’t go there any soon.

Oct 27, 2017

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Oct 27, 2017

tessierpgYes sir, Mr "I can't handle more than 70 decibels".

Oct 27, 2017

Oct 28, 2017

JackulaHeefty is actually correct. This amp doesn't have the power to rightly drive the hd650, and driving properly has nothing to do with how loud it will make the headphone sound. It will easily make the hd650 loud enough to damage your hearing, but it still won't be driving it right. The best way to describe it is like underclocking your cpu. It will run the game fine but not perform as well, and you will hear those differences. You want an amp that will put out 300-350mw into 300 ohms minimal for the hd650 to sound proper.

Oct 28, 2017

Oct 28, 2017

UzuzuI think you were meant to say that Heefty and I are actually correct. Tessierpg is the one that is claiming that 25mW is more than enough for this headphone.

Oct 28, 2017

tessierpg

Oct 28, 2017

JackulaI would even say that 10 to 15mw is enough in most cases. But if you think 300mw is required, I rest my case. Remember 1mw rms will give you 103db. 10mw will give you 9db more. I would not recommend to anybody going over this level in db, even only during transients. But YMMV, as my friend Jackula implies. Even my iPad Pro has the capacity (not the ideal setting, I concur), to drive the HD650/6xx at near full volume, delivering 0,9v of output and with only a few mw of total rms output. I’m not suggesting to let go your headphone amp for an iPad, but I’m just implying that even a low power unit such as the iPad can « manage » the HD650 At moderate to a bit louder than moderate volumes with only a few mw. I may also say that Apple products (iPad, iPhone, Macbooks) have stellar quality DACs and reasonnable quality op amps, although not very powerful. In many cases, I would recommend a headphone amp, depending on the headphone used, but external Dac/amps are not necessary with such sources, given the Cirrus Logic/Wolfson DACs in Apple units are first rate that can compete or in many cases exceed external Dac Sound quality. In other words, priority is getting an external Amp with an Apple source, external Dacs are in most cases not an improvement. Yes YMMV, Jackula.

Oct 28, 2017

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Oct 28, 2017

tessierpgWrong again, 1mW will give you 97dB, 1v will give you 103dB. I suggest you check your facts before posting more rubbish. So far three people have tried to explain why you need way more than 25mW and many more people have endorsed us more than they endorsed you, are you ignorant enough that you do not see a problem with this? Not going to respond anymore of you're just going to keep drumming on with your personal opinion and not going to discuss science.

Oct 28, 2017

tessierpg

Oct 29, 2017

JackulaLet’s say that you are right, 97db/1mw, my point is still relevant. 109db will then require 16mw. Add a few mw for transients, we are still in the 25mw area. Not at 150mw or 300mw. If you were right, then the O2 and the DFR would be good for the rubbish, which they are not. I still think that we agree to disagree. I propose that we end this conversation. Be happy.

Oct 29, 2017

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Oct 29, 2017

tessierpgdB does not scale linearly with power. It's a logarithmic function. Why do you think it needs 100s of times more power to get to 120dB when 1mW gets you to 97?
I posted some calculations previously that are quite telling, like the 250mW min that we're suggesting only gets you 121.5dB whereas the 167mW of the CTH gets you to 119.99dB. Your power required increases 2x for every 3dB increase as a good rule of thumb.

Oct 29, 2017

tessierpg

Oct 29, 2017

Heefty1. You will never need to go over 110db, even with transients only, unless you are foolish. You should take better care of your main audio component, your ears. 2. 97db/1mw (Jackula’s own fact)+ 3db = 100db/2w, and then again you double the mw for each 3db increase, rule of thumb, so to reach 109db with the HD650 you need 16mw, to reach 110db, you may need 20mw or so. 3. Check out this calculator and conclude by yourself http://www.digizoid.com/headphones-power.html 4. Once you double (or triple for Jackula...he likes Ac-Dc concert level music to his ears) your transient level compared to your rms calculation, then you are all set to your power peak normal requirement. if you believe that a 20mw rms music level can reproduce peaks over 100mw, then I rest my case.

Oct 29, 2017

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Oct 29, 2017

tessierpgNo, Jackula doesn't like harmonic distortion from clipping his V peaks while listening at normal levels. What is it going to take to get that into your head? The math doesn't lie. Go look at NwAvGuy's website and look at his measurements. The size of some of those transients is shocking, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

Oct 29, 2017

tessierpg

Oct 29, 2017

HeeftyEnough. Made my point. You’ve made yours. You don’t concur with mine. I don’t with yours. Fair enough. All said.

Oct 29, 2017

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Oct 30, 2017

JackulaLol I re-read it and don't know how I put his name there, I'm fixing that comment. Tessierpg is a big [moderated].

Oct 30, 2017

dasman

387

Oct 31, 2017

UzuzuI will admit to being a audiophile noob as I type this. But I am confused by the discussion.
The argument is that the CTH does not have the power to drive the HD650/HD6xx. But the review's I've read to date make claims along the lines of "the CTH brings the HD6xx to life" or "I was impressed by the amount of bass heft it brought out in the Senn HD650".
I don't want to get into arguments about listening levels, mW, Ohms, etc. I just want to understand why the reviews of the CTH/HD6xx pairing are so positive, when the info here is that the amp is underpowered for the HD.
Thanks

Oct 31, 2017

Oct 31, 2017

dasmanIt may very well sound very good on the hd6xx despite being underdriven. The amp is pretty clean sounding and if it is good in the bass region it may mask a lot of what's really missing. As Heefty and the other guy said you really can't tell the difference until you drive it side by side with an amp bringing it the right power. I have an hd650 and it sounds great out of my lyr 2 (which is very powerful) and out of a 40 dollar SMSL amp I have too, but it's just missing dynamics from the latter. Dynamics you won't know exist until you get there. Hd650 is just a mid-fi headphone too but I'm personally not found of over-resolving gear, it's a near perfect HP.

Oct 31, 2017

dasman

387

Oct 31, 2017

UzuzuI make the assumption (perhaps erroneously) that the various review sites know the capability of the HD650/6xx when properly driven and are reviewing accordingly.
comments that they cite the cth as a "mini-liquid crimson"; find it "makes the HD650 more engaging and lively to listen to" relative to the Vahalla 2; and an inner fidelity review that stated the hd650/hd800 was his favorite pairing of all the combinations tried.... all lead me to believe they know what the hd sounds like when properly driven.
Again, maybe my noobness means I'm overly optimistic regarding journalistic integrity... but I assume they would say if the amp was underdriving the HD's and not be so incredibly positive about the pairing...
What am I missing? I wish I had a better grip on the headphone world, but I'm a speaker guy most of the time and trying to find a headphone/amp/dac pairing that makes me happy...

Oct 31, 2017

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Oct 31, 2017

dasmanDoes it state in those reviews anywhere, which test tracks they put through the paces, or how loud their testing level was?
There's a lot of reasons you would not notice the clipping that will happen with this pairing, but those are the main ones, particularly with well trained ears. If you're listening to a track without much in the way of dynamics (rock, pop, electronic genres, rap, etc.), and are listening quietly, it is probably a very good amp. I wouldn't try to make a classical track sound like I'm part of the symphony in volume though. You'll inevitably push the pairing beyond it's capacity doing so.

Oct 31, 2017

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dasman

387

Oct 31, 2017

HeeftyYou are correct... it doesn't seem like any of the reviews talk about types of music or listening levels. Again, I (probably mistakenly) assuming "normal" (non-bleeding ear) listening levels and that they would mention if the music was clipping or not at those levels.
I guess I'm glad that I ordered both the CTH and the Liquid Carbon... I plan to audition both (listening to everything (except country) and sell the one that doesn't make the cut. Both will be connected to a Schiit Mimby and I assume both will be an upgrade over my Schiit Vali (1st gen), which will also get sold. Feb/March will be interesting, something to look forward to (aside from snow).

Oct 31, 2017

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Bruci3

Nov 2, 2017

DanLeDont believe the people telling you the schiit cannot power the hd650. Any descent amp including this combo is more than enough for the hd650.

Nov 2, 2017

Therich

Nov 2, 2017

dasmanInner Fidelity recently posted a video of his testing procedure and what music he uses.

Nov 2, 2017

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Nov 2, 2017

TherichThat was Tyll Hertsens itemizing what he uses to test headphones. The review of the CTH was written by John Grandberg.

Nov 2, 2017

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Therich

Nov 2, 2017

HeeftyOh, crud. I keep forgetting there are others, lol.

Nov 2, 2017

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Kbaum

Nov 3, 2017

TherichLittledot1+ with Russian tubes, bursan opamp on high gain. Dragon fly black as my dac. I never get past 1/4 gain. My 6xx sound great.

Nov 3, 2017

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Nov 3, 2017

dasmanAlso inner-fidelity isn't really a source I'd recommend. I certainly don't believe anything he says because he is "sponsored." He revoked one of his own reviews and changed it because it wasn't what mrspeakers and head-fi at the time wanted. Never trust anything from these guys with bias, like Jude. People who post results showing equal performance of 200 dollar gear vs 2000 dollar gear made by head-fi sponsors end up getting banned from head-fi. Like how NwAvGuy was banned permanently by Jude just because he was trying to dispel myths in the audiophile community scientifically, or people doing properly db matched blind source/amp experiments and still getting banned from head-fi. Take it all with a grain of salt.
If this CTH amp does indeed resemble a liquid-carbon than we can assume it has a warm sound signature. The hd650 is known to work best with warm-sounding amps. The valhalla itself is slightly warm but probably more neutral overall (a lot of schiit gear is pretty neutral/cold on its own). However the biggest change in warmth you can make is simply by swapping the tube-which is why I like tube-amps that don't do anything to change the sound until the tube stage. I'm sure the cth and 650 sound good despite being mathematically under-driven. Don't let it bother you too much, lol.

Nov 3, 2017

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rampantandroid

Jul 20, 2018

UzuzuI know I'm late to the party, but in searching through the discussion I saw this.
Just to set the record straight , NwAvGuy was abrasive as hell - that is why he was banned. He was banned not only from Head-fi but also from Ti Kan's amb.org (and speaking from experience, Ti Kan is incredibly patient.) He had also tested an amp of Ti's design that he admitted was out of spec and missing components, though I don't remember the full details.
That's not to say everything the guy did was wrong, but he certainly went about things the wrong way.
His profile on head-fi in fact links to a moderator post explaining why he was banned - the post makes clear he wasn't banned for attacking Schiit, but rather for breaking head-fi rules and apparently threatening to bring lawyers into the fray. See for yourself: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-wizard-appreciation-thread-long-live-the-wizard-the-former-ha-appreciation-thread.584763/page-11#post_8144761

Jul 20, 2018

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Jul 21, 2018

rampantandroidYeah, I read that. Jude just left out anything that makes him look bad, typical. He had a bone to pick with NwAvGuy

Jul 21, 2018

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rampantandroid

Jul 21, 2018

UzuzuI was there when NwAvGuy was in his ragey session. The guy was abrasive and was looking to pick a fight. I don’t tbink Jude left anything out, and certainly Ti Kan didn’t have a bone to pick...

Jul 21, 2018

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