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Hyde
1119
Aug 12, 2018
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I own the original TH-X00 version, I've been using them at work and I've been just using it straight off my Google Pixel phone. Was hoping to have a better sound through new dac/amp, but I don't know if I'm crazy or if I'm just not looking at the right dac/amp. I haven't been able to find something that's a direct upgrade.
Let me elaborate, so I've tried almost all the budget dac/amps but I've been just getting "different" sound more or less. Like I'll gain something but also loses something at the same time. Budget dac/amp I've tried include FiiO E10K, Schiit Fulla 1, NuForce UDAC3, SMSL M3, and recently I've acquired iFi Nano iDSD Black Label.
FiiO E10K - Everything's good overall but loses some bass with bass boost off, with bass boost on it's too boomy. Schiit Fulla 1 - Slightly more V shaped, increase treble and bass but vocal gets further away. NuForce UDAC3 - Similar to Schiit Fulla 1 where it's a little bit V shaped, boosts treble and bass but vocal gets a bit further away. SMSL M3 - This improves clarity and layering and instrument separation by quite a bit, vocal is forward though loses bass too. However I almost kept it but ultimately I find the vocal and bass sounded a little bit artificial. Like you boost certain frequencies too much then they start to sound "off" I can't fully explain. iFi Nano iDSD Black Label - This is the most neutral one out of all of them, also the priciest one yet (about double the cost of the rest). But because it's the most neutral one so it's a more relaxed sounding signature, the treble isn't too much and vocal is forward but loses bass a little. But clarity and layering and sound stage didn't stood out too much for me. Just overall felt a little bit flat despite the raving good reviews.
So at this point I don't know if it's just that TH-X00 is very easy to drive also fairly sensitive headphone so it doesn't really need a new dac/amp, OR maybe things won't start to sound good until I hit the Aune X1, Grace M9XX tier? At this point I even wonder if O2/ODAC or Schiit Magni3/Modi2 will be able to make any real difference (since iFi Nano iDSD Black Label is suppose to be in the comparable tier, unless it's just bad pairing).
Again to clarify, I'm not saying running off Google Pixel is the best thing ever. It just sounded the most natural and correct amount of treble/vocal/bass and maintain the most amount of micro details, trade off is that sound stage is pretty average and instrument separation is decent but not the best. All the above mentioned dac/amps seems to enhance certain frequencies but all the tiny little details seems to get washed out, like all the tiny tiny background sounds. Though I'm not saying any of the above dac/amp are bad, they all sounded good actually, but you get different trade offs, so I feel like if I'm paying extra money to hook up another device I was hoping everything to be better. So at this point I almost feel like it's better off I just run it straight off the phone at work (less things to carry too). As I've mentioned that since I'm running it at work, I don't know if it's worth it to leave an Aune X1 or Grace M9XX at my desk at work. Granted it's a fairly safe work place but it's still open concept so anyone can really just swipe anything off my desk technically.
For now I'm going with the "if it ain't broken then don't fix it" approach and might just leave it for now. What do you guys think? Lol sorry for the super long message, but I start to wonder if it's just me.
Aug 12, 2018
Bmxant
88
Aug 13, 2018
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HydeHyde, I've been going crazy trying to decide which amp I want, and I've narrowed it down to the Magni 3 or Massdrop CTH. That's interesting that you didn't like the iDSD, both the iCAN and Micro iDSD were recommended for the X00's.
Aug 13, 2018
Hyde
1119
Aug 13, 2018
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BmxantSo the crazy thing is, I did some testing at home with the iFi Nano iDSD BL pair with E-Mu Teak (I use this at home and TH-X00 at work). And this is what I find, best sound to worst:
iFi Nano off iMac (Actually sound quite nice) iFi Nano off PC (Win 10) Straight off Google Pixel iFi Nano off Google Pixel Straight off iMac
I forgot to test straight off PC. But now I suspect I might need to play around my USB Audio Player Pro settings see if I can get it to sound better. Clearly the device is capable of sounding better, just not off my phone at the moment.
Which I find annoying because there are so many variables at hand. Mac being great because no driver needed, windows has windows driver, USB Audio Player Pro has USB driver for Android, and lastly Android has no driver for USB natively. However if you listen straight off the 3.5 mm jack off Android it's not bad again. And they all sound different.
I'll test some more at work and get back to you.
Aug 13, 2018
Evshrug
3770
Community
Aug 13, 2018
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BmxantNOOOOO! Aw crap, I wrote a really lengthy response for the two of you (on my phone, because I’m crazy), and I bumped the cancel button on my screen!
Short version: You will find many Micro iDSD BL owners who try the Nano, thinking it will have a close sound signature for less cost and size, but found it to be noticeably more dull and less detailed. Sonically, the Micro iDSD BL and the Chord Mojo are about on the same level with some trades between them, and both outperform competition at their price brackets. As all-in-ones, they stand out among portable options.
An amp to consider: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x-thx-aaa-789-linear-amplifier I got to try the core amp circuit at a CanJam, with almost no pressure to move on from the booth, and I got the impression that it was strikingly similar sounding to Questyle’s zero feedback designs, in a smaller and less expensive product. If you know about photography, it is like going from trying to find the roll of film with the finest, rounded, regular grain structure, to change for a digital camera which outresolves the size of your photo paper. While some people like a bit of audio warming and grain, slower decay for a sense of bigger bass, etc, the THX AAA sounded extremely clean, linear, extended, and crisp, and had it’s own kind of excitement because of the contrast between each note, the background, and the next note. I‘d personally prefer it over most Schiit amps which tend for me to do something with making the treble a bit zingy and sharp, and as an alternative (maybe a touch less preferred) to the Cavalli made Liquid Carbon (which also had a current gain drive, and a nicer designed power supply than the off-the-shelf wall wart that the Massdrop Liquid Carbon X uses).
I also see @Hyde ‘s exploration of sources, and that’s something to be considered. Windows audio stack since Vista hasn’t been all that great or optimized, and it’s usually better to try to bypass it using ASIO mode if possible for your player. In addition to having good built-in audio device drivers, Apple put a lot of investment in writing their audio stack from scratch around the time Steve Jobs came back and just before the iPod launch, so it doesn’t surprise me @Hyde is enjoying his iMac. Pro Tip: if you find yourself short on USB ports, most iMac models have combination analog and Toslink Optical 3.5mm combo jacks, and with the right 3.5mm optical cable you can plug a DAC right into the headphone jack.
Lastly, the mastering of the song matters a ton. Most people will be more impressed with a 256 kbps AAC or 320 Kbps MP3 of a song by Steely Dan, Pink Floyd, or Daft Punk than a victim of the loudness wars in FLAC, like
Aug 13, 2018
Bmxant
88
Aug 14, 2018
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EvshrugThe THX AAA looks really good spec wise! Would you say it's worth the extra $100 over the CTH though?
Aug 14, 2018
Evshrug
3770
Community
Aug 14, 2018
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BmxantThat’s a hard call to make, because I’m also a big fan of Cavalli’s designs. I could recommend either, based on what you’re looking for.
The THX AAA is like the Objective2 on steroids, while Cavalli‘s amps really are suited to be called “liquid,” somehow combining impact with warmth, bite with smoothness, natural with euphoria. I haven’t heard the CTH myself, but even the solid state Liquid Carbon seemed to fit the most positive descriptions of “tubey“ without microphonic ringing or noise. Also, you get to play with tube rolling. However, the THX AAA might reveal more of the layering and true nature of the headphone and music track.
I think you’d be happy with either, and neither choice would be wrong.
Aug 14, 2018
Bmxant
88
Aug 14, 2018
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EvshrugIt's hard to say what I'm looking for since I'm been using a Xonar STX for the past 9 years with both my Ultrasone 2500 Pro's and now the X00 Ebony's. Between all of the enhancements on and the heavy EQ needed due to the output impedance making them sound muddy by default, I'd probably say it's bright with either a lack of bass or bloated / untamed bass. If someone asked me if I knew how the X00's were supposed to sound, I couldn't answer them.
I've heard the CTH with the stock tube pairs perfect with the X00 and tube rolling isn't needed, but as I'm not familiar with amps outside of reviews, I'm not sure what to expect, it's pretty much a gamble.
Appreciate the response, hopefully Hyde can make up his mind too :P
Edit: I found a post with someone saying that the CTH has too much power for the X00's and it only goes from "loud to louder", hmm....
Aug 14, 2018
Hyde
1119
Aug 15, 2018
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EvshrugHeyyyy thanks for the in depth explanations. I guess that's probably what bugs me about iFi Nano, somehow it just doesn't feel as detailed or as much sound separation as I hoped for. It feels a bit too relaxed or rather like you said.... dull? I guess my search for the perfect pairing continues... Though both CTH and THX AAA looks really great, I just think it's probably a bit overkill to bring those to work LOL. Come on guys you're suppose to help me save money not make me spend more. :P
But I definitely agree how well a song is mastered make up most of the difference, I've had mp3 that blew my mind simply because the recording was so good.
And I seriously LOL'ed at the "loud to louder" comment hahaha, honestly TH-X00 is fairly easy to drive I never think power is the problem.
Oh forgot to mention, after trying "Bit Perfect" mode on my phone then it sounded as good as any other source. I guess the software volume was compressing the sound quality somehow. With "Bit Perfect" then it's 100% hardware volume and it works great.
Aug 15, 2018
Bmxant
88
Aug 15, 2018
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HydeI think I'm gonna join the CTH drop....the THX looks good, but that extra $100 is just too much. $250 for the CTH seems like a killer deal though, I'll definitely post my impressions after receiving it. Rip the wallet.
Oh, by the way, do I have to be careful where I put the amp? Desk isn't super spacious with this 34" on it, it would be to the left of my keyboard next to my Blue Yet (2 1/2 feet from my router)
As for the Ifi, I guess the Micro is the way to go since you really seem unhappy with it. You should hear my Xonar though, it sounds like it's a kids toy.
Aug 15, 2018
Evshrug
3770
Community
Aug 15, 2018
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BmxantI never owned a Xonar sound card, but I’ve heard their DACs (and Dolby Headphone surround processing) are good. Not amazing, but good. You might just need an amp.
I have a DIY Tube amp, a single ended triode design (tube hybrid), and it does have a very pleasurable sound which is also quite changeable based on manufacturer and date made. The main downside of tube amps is the tubes themselves are like little radio antennae, picking up wireless signals like WiFi and microwaves but especially cellphone signals and making little squeals. The whole tubes burning out hasn’t even been an issue for me, and putting my phone in another room fixed most of the problems for me. You can also shield tubes... I got to go to a few HE-1 Orpheus demo sessions, and even though me and the host had cellphones in our pockets the HE-1’s tubes were well shielded by quartz vials, and I didn’t hear any interference. More common shields are little faraday cages, which have different effectivenesses, but some countries legally require audio tubes to be shielded to make the user unable to touch the tube while the amp is powered on. Not many amps for sale in America would pass that criteria, but it made me wonder if I should have tried getting some sort of shielding.
Aug 15, 2018
Bmxant
88
Aug 15, 2018
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EvshrugHopefully I don't have any interference, there's literally only one place to put the CTH, and it will be 2 feet away from my Nighthawk router. You're making me rethink my purchase, lol.
Edit: Cancelled for now as I need to do new research on amps and interference. It's a small desk, but I do have both the router and modem to the left of my monitor, so I'm concerned I'm going to end up with something unusable if the CTH is really going to pick up noise that easily.
Aug 15, 2018
Evshrug
3770
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Aug 15, 2018
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EvshrugI will add that the best sound I’ve ever heard out of the TH900 was with Fostex’s $8,000 tube amp. The thing looks like a 3D Printer but sounded AMAZING, one of the rare literally goosebumps-raising experiences I’ve had at CanJams (and again when I got to hear it at Munich’s High End show).
The other was the first time I heard the Sennheiser HD 800, playing “Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes” by Paul Simon, off an Astell & Kern DAP digitally outputting to an AudioGD DAC-19, Cavalli Liquid Crimson, and some red aftermarket headphone cable. While that was technically at CanJam RMAF 2016, it was in my buddy’s hotel room after the first night of the show. That was the first time I heard that song too, but my god... my – jaw – dropped.
Aug 15, 2018
mfletch
49
Aug 15, 2018
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BmxantMy router sits inches from my CTH and it picks up no noise from the router. On the other hand, I have a LittleDot I+ that is my little tube and opamp rolling testbed and it picks up router noise from several feet away.
Aug 15, 2018
Bmxant
88
Aug 15, 2018
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mfletchThanks for the info, that was reassuring enough for me to join the drop again.
Do you know if the noise amount is based on the devices shielding itself, or the amount of current going through the tubes? It's a topic that I wasn't able to find much information on.
Aug 15, 2018
Bmxant
88
Aug 15, 2018
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EvshrugYou've been so spoiled by all of these amazing pieces of equipment, lol.
Have you heard the NFB-11.28 and R2R-11? I've probably read the most mixed reviews on these two units.
Aug 15, 2018
Evshrug
3770
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Aug 15, 2018
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BmxantIt would be useful if I had heard those two XD
The conjecture from what I’ve read is that you won’t go wrong with either AudioGD. Hope it didn’t seem like I was banging on the CTH, I do like Cavalli stuff, it’s just the “loud to louder” comment fits with my own tube experience where I wished I had a little more volume adjustment, and it was mostly unusable for IEMs and high sensitivity headphones. The THX AAA has multiple gain selections, so theoretically that could help with volume a bit.
@Hyde , sorry I didn’t save you money, buddy! The Nano iDSD BL is supposed to ... well, it may not give you or I “The fizz,” but I’m not sure what I’d recommend at the same or lower price point... I like my FiiO X7, so the FiiO Q5 should be a good portable amp/DAC to take with you to work (the AM3A amp module for that has a bit of magic with my HD 650), Cavalli was trying to make the low priced Spark for a long time and it looks like a production model is finally coming out in October with the help of Monoprice (but you would still want some sort of DAC).
i eventually gave up on the endgame, and just decided to enjoy the journey. The more you hear several good but different options, the more you realize that there is no clear winner of “best,” and no #1 pick for everyone. I do recommend coming to meets though! One or two CanJams, and you’ll be just as spoiled for choice as I am!
Aug 15, 2018
Stunt
30
Aug 15, 2018
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HydeI have the iFi Nano black label and I haven't even opened it yet. I'm really wondering if I should get the centrance DAC portable that's currently available on mass drop. I always heard good things about centrance. The only downside it doesn't have in MQA streaming
Aug 15, 2018
Bmxant
88
Aug 16, 2018
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EvshrugI've done so much research and honestly, it hasn't helped much since everyone always has a different opinion.
The Ether C and X00's are supposed to be "excellent" when paired with the CTH, so hopefully that's true. The loud to louder comment was from one person, so I'm trying to filter it out of my brain.
I'm definitely going to look into CanJam, this has basically turned into a drug addiction.
Aug 16, 2018
Evshrug
3770
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Aug 16, 2018
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BmxantI’m going to CanJam RMAF this October, maybe I’ll see you there! Going to a convention definitely helps solidify headphones as an ongoing hobby, but on the flip side I also gained invaluable knowledge that helped me narrow down my wish list and therefore saved me quite a bit of money as well. And Cavalli designs Excellent stuff, maybe you won’t use it with IEMs but it should sound great with most headphones. I hope I get to catch up on some stuff I haven’t heard yet at RMAF.
Aug 16, 2018
Hyde
1119
Aug 16, 2018
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Evshruglol yeah I think I should definitely attend CamJam one of those days, man I've also never been to KeyCon either so many events to attend to LOL.
@Stunt lol don't worry I might be the odd one here, I bought it because I've read so many great review about it. Also MQA streaming on iFi Nano is suppose to be mind blowing from what I read (I haven't try yet either). So don't mark my word on it you might like it yourself. I think it just might not be inline with my preference, I realize I like more overload your ears with micro details type of sound as oppose to chill and relax type of sound.
But it's like @Bmxant said everyone like different things so it's hard to recommend. Haha I'm very intrigued by the THX AAA amp now though but probably won't pull the trigger yet. There's just so many good choices, maybe I should save up for a Chord Mojo hmmmmmmm............ Or just get the Grace M9XX (apparently they tuned the TH-X00 while using it)...... hmmmmm maybe I'll not rush into this so I'll wait and see. :P
Thanks for all the feedback though guys.
Aug 16, 2018
Bmxant
88
Aug 16, 2018
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EvshrugWould love to go as well, but I'm in NJ near NY, that's quite a ways away! Quite interested in some of your impressions on new equipment though.
@Hyde heard great things about the Grace M9XX, but I've also heard people say it's really overrated for the price as well.
Aug 16, 2018
Evshrug
3770
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Aug 16, 2018
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HydeOooh, I love my mojo! Portable, exciting, many inputs... it’s like a do all with great value!
@Bmxant I’m in PA, but you can go to CanJam NYC next winter. I’ll make a discussion thread about CanJam RMAF, so you’ll see if you follow me, ok?
Aug 16, 2018
Audios81
48
Aug 16, 2018
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EvshrugIt's awesome, went in Singapore recently; closest to Australia where I live lol, but worth it! Enjoy mate!
Aug 16, 2018
Bmxant
88
Aug 19, 2018
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EvshrugThis amp sounds interesting, I feel like I lost all my bass that I had with my fisher price STX amp. It's definitely much less bright, MUCH, but I figured I'd gain bass, not lose it.
Oh, by the way, whoever said it goes from "loud to louder" is spreading false information, it goes whisper quiet with the X00's.
Yeah, listening to all genre's here, Rich Brian - History was hitting hard, now it sounds like the bass is hidden in the background with the CTH.
Edit: It's like....overly neutral https://imgur.com/a/0G3pyoc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A5EWvPktbo this went from a head massage to disappointing as well.
Aug 19, 2018
Hyde
1119
Aug 20, 2018
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BmxantYou got the CTH amp already? That's fastttttttt ~ is that possible for massdrop?
Also does this amp need burn in maybe?
Aug 20, 2018
Bmxant
88
Aug 20, 2018
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HydeI'm in NJ, so the shipping location is about 30 miles away from me.
I just sat down, and after leaving the amp on all day playing music not much has changed than maybe a slight improvement in the mids. Channel imbalance is still there, 100L 90R sounds a bit better, but it's too hard to tell, and the bass is still lacking. Overall, I'm quite disappointed as it almost seems defective with my X00's, but I can see this amp being amazing for the 6XX's.
@Hyde Have you seen the Arcam rhead before? Supposed to be an amazing amp for the price with fantastic bass slam. I was looking at the ifi iCan SE again, but apparently the ifi amps suffer from channel imbalance at lower volumes with headphones like the X00's as well.
Aug 20, 2018
Hyde
1119
Aug 20, 2018
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BmxantAhhhhh that sucks that the CTH didn't pair well with TH-X00. Also Arcam rHead looks really good but damn it's a bit pricey lol. Also it has 2 watt output at 16 ohm (1 watt at 32 ohm) wouldn't it also fall into the "loud to louder" problem? (doesn't seem to have control for low / high gain)
Funny it's almost like we have to hunt for low powered amp just to be able to listen to them properly (that or one with digital volume pot). Usually it's the other way around lol...
Luckily so far I don't have volume issue with iFi Nano iDSD BL just find it a bit....... flat LOL oh the search continues.......
Aug 20, 2018
Bmxant
88
Aug 20, 2018
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HydeApparently it doesn't have the loud to louder issue, maybe it's due to the type of volume control they use. Then again, neither does the CTH with its ridiculous gain.
That's quite interesting that your nano doesn't have any volume issues, yet the micro does...
The Arcam can actually be found for around $240 shipped from the UK. The site is Analogue Seduction.
It's not even the lack of bass that's bothering me, it's the brain hurting channel imbalance at low volume. I'd be shocked if there's a better amp for detail and clarity, this thing is pretty unreal in that aspect.
Aug 20, 2018
Stunt
30
Aug 20, 2018
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BmxantHonestly man I got my eye on this amazing portable option just like the IFI Nano Black Label but it's actually putting out more power and from what I heard from this company they have amazing Clarity really trying to link up with them to get this device it just came off of drop a couple days ago but if it ever comes back up again check out the centrance DAC portable it actually has stronger power than the IFI Nano Black Label and if you get the dacportable it does have bass options as well as treble option. The standard centrance HD DAC doesn't so make sure you get the dacportable
Aug 20, 2018
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