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gammon
0
Jan 31, 2018
What do you guys think, this or a Schitt Jotunheim?
superdeedapper
11
Jan 31, 2018
gammonThis if you have somewhat brighter headphones. Jot if you have something warmer/darker or planars. If you are getting this they do a drop for just the amp without the dac, which is what I would personally go for. thats just me tho
shimage
228
Jan 31, 2018
gammonhttp://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/cavalli-liquid-carbon-technical-measurements.828/ http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/jotunheim-technical-measurements.2760/
For the Jotunheim, subbass response extends farther, ultrasonic high frequencies roll off sooner (seems a touch overdamped), noise floor is much lower, THD is the same, crosstalk is way lower, better channel matching. All of this is well below audible thesholds. I have a Jotunheim (listening to it now), I don't find it bright. It sounds like an amp (which is to say, neutral). I've never heard it, but obviously the FR of the liquid carbon is also flat through the audible spectrum. Unfortunately, he doesn't measure max power output at 1% THD (industry standard), which would be informative considering Schiit is known to use a higher THD for their power output specs. Rest assured, though, both have way more power on tap than anyone needs.
DAC-wise, the Jotunheim's built-in (should you choose to get it) is balanced. I don't think you can get a standalone balanced dac for $100 (or $200, for that matter). Does balanced matter? It shouldn't. But maybe subconciously you think it possibly might? Then it could make a difference in sighted comparisons. Only way to know is if you try it out yourself.
Note, psychological effects have a much larger impact on perceived sound quality than anything the amp is doing. That's what people are hearing with sighted comparisons. I'm not going to comment on that any further.
zbells
234
Feb 1, 2018
shimageHey, this info you're linking is a little misleading because it's for the Liquid Carbon 1.0, which was known to have some issues. The model the Liquid Carbon X is based from is the Liquid Carbon 2.0, which I'd imagine has better measurables. It's also important to note that differences in the LCX like an external power supply and other minor supplier differences mean this won't be exactly the same as the LCX 2.0, even if it might sound the same in real world use.
shimage
228
Feb 2, 2018
zbellsWhat are these gen 1 issues? Main differences that I could google between the 1.0 and 2.0 are improved SE performance, improved power supply, possibly fixed channel balance issues related to the phase splitter. The LCX has a totally different power supply, and the linked measurements are for balanced (both in and out, so no phase splitters involved). Doesn't seem to me that the LCX will measure much better than this.
zbells
234
Feb 2, 2018
shimageI don't think either of us are audio engineers, but the power supply can certainly affect measurements, as well as any changes made to the internal components of the amp (https://tangentsoft.net/audio/opamp-ps.html). What I'm saying is that while the LCX is absolutely similar to the Liquid Carbon 1.0, it's not the same amp. The LCX isn't even the same as the Liquid Carbon 2.0, because Massdrop may (or maybe not idk) use some different components inside the amp because they have their own supply chain that is different from what Cavalli Audio used. It is however, based on the same topology.
shimage
228
Feb 2, 2018
zbellsI'm confused. Are you suggesting that a wallwart switching power supply will improve things? Or that whatever changes to the component selection/layout will measure better than the original LC? I don't have the knowledge to assess Cavalli's abilities from a design standpoint, but I'm still curious: if you think Cavalli is so terrible at circuit design/layout that a $300 copy can do better (not "as good as", measurably better is what I'm hearing you suggest), why would you even be interested in his circuit topology?
Not that it matters, but you're right, I'm not an audio engineer. Since you brought it up, though, my dissertation was on atmospheric electric field measurements (I designed, built, and tested the amplifiers used), so it's not like electronics are completely foreign to me.
zbells
234
Feb 2, 2018
shimageLol I'm confused. Are you suggested that different components and power supply design/layout will not affect the measurements?
Most of the flak the liquid carbon got was that it didn't use quality parts inside (read headroom as I'm sure you have). Massdrop has a much better developed supply chain and can get better parts for much cheaper than Cavalli Audio was able to. This is why Massdrop is able to make dozens collaborations now that perform better or equal to the original products (TH-X00, ODAC/AMP, HD6XX, Focal Eleax). That's one of the main benefits of Massdrop - being able to make electronics cheaper than smaller companies because of their factories in China and being able to make orders in bulk to drop the price.
I don't want to be rude, but this thread simply started because you compared the Jot to the Liquid Carbon, making the assumption that the Liquid Carbon is the same as the LCX, which it's not. I'm not even trying to argue that the LCX is better than the Jot, I think Schiit is amazing, I own a Schiit stack, and I'm pretty sure it measures better than the LCX. That doesn't change the fact that the LCX isn't the Liquid Carbon 1.0.
shimage
228
Feb 2, 2018
zbellsIs that what I said? That any changes would not have any effect on the measurements? Read what I wrote again, I don't feel like typing it out all over. I don't want to be rude, but this thread started because your reading comprehension needs improvement.
And while we're talking about massdrop collabs, the TH-X00 is manufactured by Foster, the HD6XX by Sennheiser, the Elex by Focal. I don't see how these examples are even relevant to your argument. The O2 amp also doesn't prove anything since nwavguy's licence states anything sold as an "O2" must use the exact same layout and components in order to be called an O2, so any "improved" O2 cannot be named such (nevermind that we have nothing to compare). What your examples actually show is that if you put in a large enough order, some companies will let you customize the product a little. I have a Massdrop Gents in my hand right now (designed by Ferrum Forge and manufactured by WE knife). While it's a nice knife, it doesn't compete with an actual Ferrum Forge. At $80, it's not supposed to.
Last thing, when you say "headroom" what forum is that? Did you mean head-case, Kevin Gilmore's forum? He and spritzer crap on anything and everything that isn't designed by Gilmore (except for audio-gd for some weird reason), including everything by schiit. My recollection is that their actual complaints were that 1) it wasn't a balanced topology, which is arguable, 2) it wasn't fully discrete, since the phase splitters used opamps, and 3) the power supply wasn't an off-the-shelf component. #1 obviously isn't addressed in the LC2 or this drop. #2 also has no bearing on the measurements I linked to. #3 I don't even understand, but I don't see how a wallwart switching power supply is moving in the right direction (not that switching wallwarts aren't perfectly adequate, but they most certainly do not measure better than linear power supplies for what audiophiles care about). Near as I can tell, their issues were all theoretical, as they couldn't be bothered to measure anything.
p.s. I would expect the LCX's balanced out to measure better than the schiit stack for no other reason than the LC1 measured better than the SE outputs on the jot and the magni 3 has a similar topology (and listed specs). But as I said in my first post, none of this will be audible in blind comparisons. How's that for comparing apples and oranges?
zbells
234
Feb 3, 2018
shimageReally dude, "I'm confused. Are you suggesting that a wallwart switching power supply will improve things? Or that whatever changes to the component selection/layout will measure better than the original LC?" That's what you wrote...
You don't need to get so butt hurt bud. You compared the Jot to the LC 1.0. I told you this was based off the 2.0 and made by MD not Cavalli which could potentially change things some. You're right about the collabs tho, my mistake (is that so hard?)
shimage
228
Feb 3, 2018
zbellsQuote the part where I state that it is impossible for the LCX to measure worse than the LC1, then I will apologize. Otherwise please excuse me if I continue to remind you of your illiteracy.
zbells
234
Feb 3, 2018
shimageUgh I can't waste anymore time on you. Get over yourself shitmage. Hehe
Uzuzu
1431
Feb 4, 2018
zbellsShimage is right though. There is no way the LCX sounds better than the LC1, in regards to balanced. And if you believe the power supply could affect sound quality well it would certainly be for worse as a wall wart, meaning the LCX has a higher likeliness to sound worse than the LC1 if that were the case. But what does it really matter? They all sound the same I mean come on. I too would get a JOT though (If I wanted balanced) as I like my amps neutral and without character. That is the realm of the headphones themselves and for tubes.
zbells
234
Feb 4, 2018
UzuzuI said using the LC 1.0 measurements were misleading because this ain't the same amp. The power supply on the 1.0 was changed for the 2.0 and now changed again for the X. As well as some other things. But your right it'll probably sound the same and might even end up measuring the same. And the measurements don't even really matter because they wont effect real world listening and any differences are below audible levels. Jot is neutral, but many also say a little bright and lean FWIW.
shimage
228
Feb 5, 2018
zbellsFFS, you continue to miss the point. The LC1 and LC2 are extremely similar, and the differences aren't even relevant to the posted comparison. The primary relevant difference between the LCX and the posted LC1 measurements is the switching wall wart power supply (unless Massdrop's manufacturer messed something up). If the power section is properly designed, this will not have an effect. If not, then the LCX will measure worse. Since the LC1 already measures worse than the Jot in almost every way, it will be a miracle if the LCX's balanced performance is even comparable to the Jot. And of course it will sound the same! Pretty much every low output impedance SS amp from the Magni 3 on up sounds the same (blind). If you like a darker sound, the black chassis will help in sighted listening, though.
Uzuzu
1431
Feb 5, 2018
shimageHaha black chassis. And the Jot isn't bright, I hate that description in regards to amps. Schiit's SS amps are all dead on neutral, it's the bright headphone being brought into the light. Personally for this unit what ruins it for me is the wall wart. I hate wall warts compared to a unit you can just pick and move. Easier to buy replacement cables too and it just looks better. I think for +50 dollars MD should have just kept it with the supply inside the chassis but then it's price wouldn't be competitive with the Jot.
zbells
234
Feb 5, 2018
UzuzuJot is a great amp for the price, not saying it isn't. But it's not a perfect amp. I'm happy you find it "dead on neutral", but if you look at a few objective reviews on the internet (presumably not from Schiit fan boys), some people find it glaring in the treble, thin "tinny" sounding, and bright - with possibly some soundstage depth issues. The LCX certainly isn't a perfect amp either. I haven't been able to listen to the previous iterations of the LC family though, so if either of you have, I'd love to hear your impressions. And if every amp sounds the same, I guess the Lcx is a no-brainer because it's $100 cheaper than the Jot? I've certainly heard differences between the magni 2u and magni 3, but I guess that doesn't reach the magni 3 and up threshold.
zbells
234
Feb 5, 2018
shimageAnd if you don't think there is a difference between ss amps above magni 3, then surely you don't think there's a difference between SE and balanced, so why do you even have a jot?
Uzuzu
1431
Feb 5, 2018
zbellsHe never said he didn't think there was a difference than SE and balanced, stop trolling.
shimage
228
Feb 7, 2018
zbellsYou say "objective reviews" and then give a laundry list of subjective descriptions? Seriously? Do you understand at all what "objective" means?
I realize I have an awful lot of amps for someone who doesn't believe they sound different in blind tests, but 1) they are cheap, so I don't care, and 2) in sighted listening there are lots of differences, on account of psychological factors (but this is not objective, obviously). As for balanced, my clears came with balanced cables, that's pretty much what my jot is for. I wanted to see if there was a difference for me in sighted listening.
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