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iwag
3
Jul 25, 2017
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I've had a pair of HD598s since late 2011 and they have held up wonderfully the past few years. They also sound amazing with the setup I have on my PC. They don't need to be replaced yet but I figured this deal was too good to pass up.
I was wondering if these headphones would be a good investment in terms of price and performance based on the headphones I already have. Should I be looking at getting higher tier headphones since the 598s were already pretty good to begin with? I use them for games and music on my PC and have a Asus Xonar Essence STX sound card.
Jul 25, 2017
Cokeman
1971
Jul 25, 2017
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iwagThese would be a considerable upgrade over the 598s. Remember these aren't really $200 headphones, these are really $500 headphones. I see a lot of people compare these to the 598s because the 598s are around $150 and these are $200, A lot of people think they are similar because of the close prices. But like I said, since these are $500 headphones actually, they are a lot better than the 598s.
Jul 25, 2017
iwag
3
Jul 25, 2017
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CokemanYeah I was using their MSRP or whatever Amazon has them at. Thanks for your input.
Jul 25, 2017
minh2134
21
Jul 25, 2017
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iwagThe HD 598 is more mid-focused than the HD 650 (or HD 6xx in this case). These cans are well-known to be describe as "veiled", that is, they tends to excel at lower mid and bass. Consider this if you want to switch, some prefer the HD 598 over HD 650 for its sound signature. More MSRP doesn't automatically imply a better product, especially in audio field.
Jul 25, 2017
minh2134
21
Jul 25, 2017
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minh2134Oh and btw, the veiled one is the HD 650 and not HD 598 should anyone get the wrong idea :)).
Jul 25, 2017
Jackula
1743
Jul 26, 2017
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iwagIf you're intending to keep your Xonar Essence STX, then the 598 is probably still the best headphone for you. The 6XXs are power hungry and needs a better amp to get the most out of them. That's not to say the 6XX won't sound good on the Essence, but you may not realise much performance improvement or may even seem like a degrade in audio quality.
Jul 26, 2017
iwag
3
Jul 26, 2017
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JackulaInteresting. So would the Schiit Modi/Magni combo be sufficient?
Jul 26, 2017
Jackula
1743
Jul 27, 2017
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iwagProbably not that much different. The Xonar Essence has a decent DAC on it, if you wanted the good value route then consider a headphone amp only. An ideal amp would be able to easily output 500mW @ 300ohm and the Magni isn't it, you'll be able to get enough volume but there'll be distortion because the amp would be operating at its peak at normal listening volumes. Getting good quality 500mW can get very expensive, which is why you'll hear a lot of people say that these headphones scale really well even amongst $1k+ amps. Your original question is whether Magni is sufficient, I'd say yes. Would it let you get the most out of these cans, I'd say no.
EDIT: You could consider the Schiit Jotunheim (balanced output), but then you'd need to fork out for a set of balanced cables. The Jotunheim lets you use your own DAC or use the onboard DAC, you could experiment to see which one you like better.
Jul 27, 2017
Panzer17
85
Jul 28, 2017
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JackulaIf you're going to use the balanced cables for the HD650, you should get the Jotunheim with the DAC. Otherwise you'll have to also run balanced cables from your DAC to the Jot. The Jot DAC upgrade is only $100, probably a better idea.
But I really don't think balanced is worth it. You probably won't hear a difference. The HD650 is only supposed to take 200mW at 300ohm, so the Magni2 is just fine for it. 500mW is really high, not too many amps will give you that power. I'm not sure if tube power is the same, but a Valhalla2 is a good choice and does pair very well with the HD650 (as well as the HD800).
Jul 28, 2017
Jackula
1743
Jul 28, 2017
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Panzer17From memory, 200mW @ 300ohm is the rating for HD600, however the HD650 has higher demands at 500mW (see Ken Rockwell's review: http://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/sennheiser/hd-650.htm). Thanks, I agree the Valhalla is a good match - don't know why I didn't think of it, though it's not really a traditional tube amp and won't have the same distortion characteristics. Traditional OTL tube amps have much higher voltages (gain) than solid state, however low wattage means it will distort most of the time, the way it distorts is pleasing to human hearing which is why you don't really need to consider peak output of tube amps as you would solid state. The Valhalla would have a transformer behind the output that converts some of the excess voltage to current, but also add a bit of noise from doing so. Reason I suggested the Jotunheim is it has much higher output on balanced than single ended, and it likely have less distortion than the Valhalla.
Jul 28, 2017
Panzer17
85
Jul 28, 2017
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JackulaI think Rockwell is using output measurements at 129dB, which will guaranteed give you hearing loss, while other places probably use a lower volume. The volume level does affect the the rating. I've read 200mW @ 300ohm for HD650, and HD600 was supposed to be even lower. I guess it depends where you read it.
Here's some info off of Tyll's site innerfidelity: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD650.pdf
He sets it at a more reasonable 90dB. Most people should be listening in the 60-90 range, and probably closer to 70-80 to prevent hearing damage, so for the most part 200mW should be fine. There is that bass hump where it can spike up a bit so you might want some more headroom, but the high outputs people are looking at are rather overstated IMO just going off of what I've read.
Jul 28, 2017
Jackula
1743
Jul 29, 2017
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Panzer17I'm not at all suggesting playing it at 129dB, as it's played at 12v with a 1kHz sine wave. Wattage doesn't translate directly to volume, but the test is a good indicator of how much headroom you'll need at normal listening volumes.
My own listening tests suggests distortion on even a HD600 drops incrementally as you head to about 200mW at 50% max output. This is consistent with many listening reports where the HD650 tend to stop scaling much on amps giving well above 500mW.
Jul 29, 2017
Panzer17
85
Jul 29, 2017
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JackulaHmm in that case, what amp would you suggest? I'm not a fan of tubes personally, but not many solid state amps I know of at a reasonable price especially will output 500mW per channel at 300ohm. Maybe the Jot and going balanced is the best bet. I think there are actually balanced cables for the HD650 as a drop right now.
Jul 29, 2017
Cokeman
1971
Jul 29, 2017
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Panzer17You don't need 500mw per channel, that is max power. You really don't need much power.
Jul 29, 2017
Jackula
1743
Jul 29, 2017
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Panzer17What you suggested - Valhalla - would be fine, although you're not a fan of tube amps, they actually sound more like solid state than tube amps.
Cokeman. You're right, you don't need 500mW, and I have stated this before. You can get good volumes even from the back of a phone, but the context here is scaling and distortion.
Even a little bit of power, say from a FiiO can help a lot, because like everything else in audio, scaling is logarithmic.
Jul 29, 2017
Cokeman
1971
Jul 29, 2017
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JackulaYou really don't need more than 5mw according to this. http://www.digizoid.com/power.php
Jul 29, 2017
KTMD
195
Jul 31, 2017
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iwagThese are definitely worth it. I got the 598s when they were $99 and I have the 650s. The 650s definitely overshadow the 598 in everything except the cable. These you do feel the y cable vs the single sided cable on the 598s. The 650s you'll also see scale with an amp. I didn't believe that, but it's definitely true. You'll also be able to realize the difference between tube and SS. For what Massdrop is charging, it's a steal. Everything will be an upgrade and the soundstage will rock your world. The same way the 598s did, these will do it again
Jul 31, 2017
Geodnb
0
Jul 31, 2017
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KTMDim still uncertain where the 6xx will sound 100% As good as the 650's on a high end amp.
Jul 31, 2017
Jackula
1743
Jul 31, 2017
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GeodnbThey have the same transducers, and therefore the same sound regardless of amp.
Jul 31, 2017
kenwstr
121
Jul 31, 2017
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KTMDHi, Well I'm in on this drop as well. To date I have only used PX 100s as my main requirement way back when they 1st came out was portability and a tighter budget. Things change and while I prefer listening to music over my Polk 10Bs, there are times when others in the house just don't want to hear it. I could have gone closed back for isolation but that's a lot of performance to sacrifice. So I'll see how the 6XXs go. Hopefully they won't emit too much external noise. My HiFi system is basically 80s analogue stereo output to speakers though I do have some digital sources integrated with it through an Essence HDACC which has a 16-600 ohm headphone output. I have placed HDACC within the Amps tape dubbing loop so it can be used as a remote volume control for all sources including analogue. I can bypass that by playing analogue sources direct to the amp if I want too (the remote control thing is to satisfy other family members). I don't know the HDACCs headphone current output so will just wait and see how the 6XX works with it.
I maintain a church PA system which is a different thing to HIFI but I can comment on balanced cabling. The main purpose of this cabling is to cancel induced EM noise through phase inversion. This can be a significant issue in long cable runs in environments of high RF interference. In my experience it is not normally an issue in the short cable runs used in home HiFi though it could be in exceptionally EM noisy environments. However it should be noted that a properly set up balanced system should have separate signal ground to power earth so that the signal ground reference is stable and free of anomalies. In domestic HiFi RCA based systems, this is just not the case. It is difficult to marry the two systems together in a way that keeps the signal reference and power earth correctly isolated from each other. Some pro PA manufacturers sometimes don't do this correctly either. So I guess my take home point is, it's probably not worth pursuing balanced connections in a domestic system because aside from the difficulties, you have to add extra electronic processes in the system. Every process and connection degrades the signal so High Fidelity is about keeping the signal path as short, simple and unadulterated as possible. That is the secret to great performance in a nutshell. Sure you have to satisfy requirements but minimalism is the guiding light.
Oops. My comment above unintentionally references a specific contributor. It was meant to be a general discussion comment, not specific to any one person. Sorry, I don't see an edit option that allows me to remove the reference?
Ken
Jul 31, 2017
Gerken
4
Jul 31, 2017
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iwagWow, your setup and thoughts are exactly the same as mine. Only difference is that my hd598 is from 2012 ;-) i got the 6xx based on what I've read the it is a step up, and the next step to 700 or 800 is simply so mich more expensive. My plan is instead to spend money on a better headphone amp or dac. Perhaps the mojo, but that will have to wait until i have the headphones to test with.
Jul 31, 2017
KTMD
195
Jul 31, 2017
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GeodnbIt should be the same. The only difference is the exclusive colorway and price point. The components are the same. So you're getting a steal when the 650s were super expensive. You can get an exclusive color and "limited" edition for cheap.
Jul 31, 2017
Tarantula
2
Jul 31, 2017
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iwagI think a lot has to do with your hearing and tastes. I own both the HD 598 and the HD 6XX, I use the HD598 daily while the HD 6XX mostly collects dust. My best digital source digital is a Zuperdac. (Turntable not working). I used to be very involved with hi-fi equipment (although I could never afford high end audiophile equipment) and was once actually nicknamed "golden ears", but now as a senior citizen my hearing has deteriotated and can no longer hear very high frequencies. (Amazingly, this doesn't seem to affect my ability to hear the difference even between dacs.) For me, the clarity of the HD 598 is far more important than the slightly stronger bass of the HD 6XX and what a lot of people claim as "smoother" high end of the HD6XX. With the HD 598 I can listen to music even at very low levels and still hear every detail, on the HD6XX some of those details get lost in the background, and to me the bass sounds just a little 'muddier". For teen bassheads I think the HD 6XX would probably be a better choice, for people that like to hear every possible nuance in the instruments or like a more detailed soundstage, especially if you are older, I think the HD 598 is a better choice. Even though the bass is not as strong in the HD 598, I have never felt that I was missing anything. (BTW, I mostly listen to smooth jazz).
Jul 31, 2017
iwag
3
Jul 31, 2017
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TarantulaThanks for your perspective! Definitely going to take it into account.
Jul 31, 2017
iwag
3
Jul 31, 2017
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GerkenYeah I am trying to figure out what to dump my money into as well... Good luck!
Jul 31, 2017
Gerken
4
Jul 31, 2017
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TarantulaThank you for your view. These are the same reasons I picked the HD 598 in the first place over Momentum and other headphones, I like the clear and precise bass. Now I wonder if I'll like the HD 6xx. On the other hand I guess it would also be boring to have two headphones that sound the same.
Jul 31, 2017
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