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ADVICE FOR CURRENT / PROSPECTIVE HD6XX USERS:
When looking to improve the sound of one's headphone set-up, selecting 'good headphones' and 'the maximum-attainable volume level' are not the only factors that must be taken into consideration.
For music enjoyment at home, the HD 6XX are probably the best available headphones for under $200. But while plugging them into a computer or phone's headphone jack (DAC/amp) might sound loud enough, the quality of the sound will be lacking substantially compared to how they can potentially sound.
The HD 6XX/650/600 scales (improves) with more power on tap from the amplifier used. With more power available, the headphones will exhibit increased dynamics and improved bass solidity. Generally speaking, a good DAC will increase overall clarity, imaging, and sound-stage width. Tube amplifiers, equalization, and a balanced connection can also improve the sound of the headphones. While a separate DAC and amplifier can be used in conjunction, a combination 'DAC/amp' unit will suffice - and may even be preferable - for most people.
Two excellent value portable DAC/amps: The FiiO Q1 mkII ($100) would be an excellent choice for less power-hungry headphones. (Only use this model with the HD 6XX if you can take advantage of its balanced-out.) Otherwise, I recommend the more-powerful iFi nano iDSD Black Label ($200).
TL;DR: A common misconception with headphones is that the model used and the volume level they can reach (with your device) are the only important factors to consider. The fact is, no computer or phone can drive the HD 6XX (or any high-impedance headphone) properly. To hear them anywhere close to their full potential, a DAC and amplifier are required.
Kurohayabusa
45
Jul 15, 2018
mattrisCan you please explain 'scaling' from an electronics perspective? I've never quite understood how it works.
redbook
27
Jul 16, 2018
mattrisJust seconding that equipment recommendation. I have the HD 6XX, and I am running them from an iFi nano iDSD (the LE, not the black label) and they have enough power to get the 6XX ear damagingly loud. It's just a USB connection to my Mac Mini - no additional power source needed, and it's small enough to be portable. The iFi is a fantastic DAC/ amp for the price. If you had just $400 for a mid-fi rig, the 6XX and iFi nano is - IMO - the best you can do for that money.
Unowned
5
Jul 16, 2018
Kurohayabusatake this with a grain of salt, but I think scaling means, for example the HD 6xx, will sound better with better audio equipment. I think it means that if you pair the HD6xx with more expensive DAC/AMP(something better than your previous one), it will have a sizable improvement. You must have heard something like " the HD6xx scales well with a better sounding amp."
Kurohayabusa
45
Jul 16, 2018
UnownedI'm well aware of what the term means. The issues is that I've heard it being said many, many times, with little explanation to back it up. Some have made vague statements about the analytical nature of the headphones revealing flaws in the amp/dac (which would only happen if the amp was clearly defective), some bring up the 500 ohm impedance spike (forgetting the difference between voltage output and current output amplifiers) and others go off on a tangent about tube amplifiers (which are an entire other kettle of fish). Until I come across some explanation of how scaling is purported to work, I'll be taking it with a very large rock of salt indeed.
Abelity
7
Jul 16, 2018
mattrisDo you think the Massdrop CTH + SDAC DAC/Amp would pair well with these?
Zebrech
11
Jul 16, 2018
mattrisI'm going to clear up something for people that are listening music on computer too. A good software which compensates the audio compression (if you're listening mp3 files for exemple or youtub or any website that's not specialized in audio quality) gives better results in audio improvments than a DAC at 500$. Alot exist the most famous one is Fx Sound.
ethn
1
Jul 16, 2018
KurohayabusaFrom an electronics perspective having increased power allows the amp to accurately create transient voltages (peaks in particular). A lesser amp may manage a similar average power and sound as loud - but is actually smoothing some of the peaks and reducing the accuracy of the output. A more 'demanding' load in this context requires the amp to deliver more current to reach or maintain a given voltage - with less power available the amp's voltage may droop. It may be able to hit the voltage initially, but can't maintain it.
jaydunndiddit
3262
Jul 17, 2018
KurohayabusaFor the 650/6XX, they tend to scale well due to a more powerful amp being able to meet their current and voltage demands. This headphone has some pretty high impedance swings upwards of 500 ohms and a healthy voltage request over 7Vrms: https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/very-important-sennheiser-hd-580-hd-600-and-hd-650-measurements.
I think the reference to "scaling well" should more aptly be called "amped properly." High impedance headphones are relatively easy to drive since they typically draw less current as long as your amp can supply the required amount of voltage for a given loudness.
But when you start looking at specs, many units are not able to output that much voltage. Phones and laptops are around 2Vrms and most portable amps are around 3-4Vrms. Until you start moving up to some of the beefier, mid-tier amps, you start to get more power. Most people tend to be on a budget (as the 6XX is a $200 headphone) and don't have an appropriate amp to push them. Usually a phone, laptop, DAP, etc.
I won't go into balanced vs SE but that can make a difference as well since the power output typically skyrockets when using a balanced connection.
Moes
79
Jul 17, 2018
jaydunndidditHow did you come with 7 Vrms? Source? That high voltage might burn the voice coil. Also, I am not aware of any phones that can output 2 Vrms output. The maximum is 1V for iPhones and HTC Android phones.
GunsOfBrixton
911
Jul 17, 2018
mattrisWell, on the clearing up part...
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But the 6XX does need a good amp. :)
Here's a classic on the subject of impedance and headphone amps in general. https://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/headphone-impedance-explained.html
ethn
1
Jul 17, 2018
MoesDo a bit of research, or perhaps read the thread before requesting "source"... 7V into 500 ohms is less than 100mW. The HD650 has a Max power rating of 500mW. Nobody ever expected your phone to provide that sort of output - that's why we're talking about amplifiers.
GunsOfBrixtonI surmised that, regarding headphones, most people don't know anything except 'the hype of a certain brand/model' and 'the volume that can be achieved with the headphone jack of the device(s) they have'. I forgot to mention other common factors people consider, like "can I wear it in public and not look like a douche?" and "is it good for gaming?".
Obviously, I avoided technical jargon in my post, as most people won't understand - or care. I merely brought attention to the fact that, when using the HD 6XX, a high-quality DAC and amplifier are required to achieve the sound anywhere close to their full potential.
Having said this, I changed my headline to better reflect the purpose of this conversation.
jaydunndiddit
3262
Jul 17, 2018
MoesThe LG V20/30 can provide 2Vrms. They are known for their audio quality for a good reason.
Just by inputting the specs for the HD 650 (300 Ohms / 103 dB 1V/RMS) into a calculator, you get how one would get to it's MAX limit for a piece of dynamic music. Obviously, no sane human would ever listen at 120dB but it must be accounted for as music can swing that loud and that the amp has enough headroom to compensate for such transients:
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EDIT: Wanted to include this as well since it shows the variable amount of voltage and current depending on listening levels.
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Kurohayabusa
45
Jul 17, 2018
ethnThanks ethn and jaydunndiddit for your responses. I like how succinct "scaling well = properly amplified" is. There are a lot of other questions I have in the back of my mind regarding how impedance affects sensitivity, the significance of constant voltage sources in headphones with impedance spikes and other such topics but I think my main question has been answered. Just out of interest, what effect does insufficient voltage have on frequency response? Would areas of high impedance be boosted, due to less current requirement?
jaydunndiddit
3262
Jul 17, 2018
KurohayabusaHere's a pretty good high-level article discussing what you're asking. Ignore the plug for their products. The information therein is still a solid overview: https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/14017381-headphone-impedance-and-sensitivity.
Also, the chart at the end is very interesting and will give some additional context to what we were discussing above when it comes to Power vs Voltage sensitivity and its effect on loudness.
Kurohayabusa
45
Jul 17, 2018
jaydunndidditThanks for the article, it was a great read and easy to understand. It doesn't really mention anything about impedance spikes, and while it does fill a few gaps in my knowledge, it also just makes more questions for me to think about. e.g. is the sensitivity still 103dB/Vrms at 500ohm? Or is dB/Vrms entirely independent of impedance, and thus a given constant, while dB/mW changes to keep the dB/Vrms value constant? Would that mean voltage requirement for a given dB SPL for impedance spikes changes? Or does it stay the same because amplifiers are a constant voltage source, and dB/Vrms is apparently independent of impedance? But if it does increase, why don't manufacturers list the maximum impedance of their headphones instead of average impedance? At this point I think I just need to find a textbook or sign up for some online college course before I end up misinterpreting everything
mindhead1
599
Jul 17, 2018
AbelityYes.
Moes
79
Jul 17, 2018
ethn The sensitivity of HD650 is 103dB/V. For 7 volts, the SPL is 120dB which is the threshold of pain and permanent hearing loss happens in less than 5 minutes. The 500 ohms is the impedance at the primary resonance of the headphone. The nominal impedance(300 ohms) is what is used in calculation not the peak impedance.
Audiophiles should learn basic electronics.
jaydunndiddit
3262
Jul 17, 2018
MoesMusic is dynamic. It is quite normal for music, especially classical, to have peaks of 120 dB during nominal listening levels. For movies, this peak can be even higher depending on the soundtrack. That's why it's important to ensure your amp has the headroom for these situations. No one is listening to anything at 120 dB continuously. Not to mention, the peak impedance as well as other swings are important as one must compensate accordingly power-wise. Headphones as well as music, are dynamic. Not static. This is a baseline and important in determining the dynamic range between soft and loud sounds while listening at a particular volume. The same applies to loudspeakers (albeit to a much higher degree).
The one that needs to learn the basics appears to be you in this scenario especially after making the comment about burning out voice coils. There is already plenty of documentation on this subject. If what you were saying had any merit, there would not be any need for any manufacturer to make amps with additional headroom to compensate for these swings.
Moes
79
Jul 17, 2018
jaydunndidditThere is still some confusion. Music has no absolute volume like 120 dB. It depends on where you place the quietest part of the music. Let's say, a piece of music has 30dB dynamic range. During the final mastering stage, the peak will be mapped to either 0, -1 or -5 dbFS(Full Scale) in order not to clip the signal. So, the quietest part of the music will be at -30, -31 or -35 db FS.
When you listen to the music, let's say 80 dB SPL(the quietest part), the peak will be at 110 dB SPL. So, you need an amplifier that can drive your headphone to 110 dB SPL which for HD650 is 2.238 V. Anything more is unnecessary since the dynamic range of music hardly exceeds 30 dB. This has been studied extensively. Search for articles on "Loudness War".
As for why manufacturer make amps capable of large voltage swings are
1) Marketing.
2) It is free. If you look at the spec. sheet of an amplifier, you will find a graph between THD and output voltage. The THD raises gradually and at a particular output voltage, it raises very sharply. The engineers take some cut-off point like 1% THD and then quote the corresponding voltage. Some manufacturers take 10% THD as the cut-off point and will quote some ridiculus values like 18V.
To tell you the truth, there is no need for an amplifier since our smartphones are perfectly capable of driving high impedance headphones. Due to some stupid European laws which stipulates that portable devices shall not output more than 85 dB SPL, the output voltage is kept low though some phone manufacturers do allow higher voltage for the headphone output.
jaydunndiddit
3262
Jul 17, 2018
MoesI have read about the "loudness" wars but you're still missing the point. You are treating this as if power and music are linear. They are not. They are highly dynamic. For you to state the dynamic range of music barely exceeds 110 dB is quite frankly, horse shit. Rock concerts easily top 115 dB and orchestra tops 120 dB as well. And this is during live performances. To think that the same would not translate to recorded music is plain ignorance. That's why manufacturers build in enough headroom for these swings. This is especially true for 20-24bit files that allow for dynamic range to top out at 120 dB. That's why it's always a good guideline to compensate for it as that is the max when listening to a dynamic piece of music and to make sure you don't experience any clipping.
Your comment about not needing any sort of amplifier is laughable. It truly is. That bizarre logic doesn't account for current. Voltage is only part of the equation for power. Ensuring that headphones (especially planars) have enough current is important to ensure they sound their best. This is very important with planars as they are typically pretty inefficient and require more current and voltage than their dynamic counterparts.
Here's an article that explains this further and provides charts and comparisonsr: http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/09/more-power.html.
This article breaks down the terms used above for those that may not know and even states how this was the baseline for InnerFidelity's headphone measurements (a very good read): https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/nwavguys-heaphone-amp-measurement-recommendations.
And a few snippets just to be thorough for tl;dr folks:
DESIRED MAXIMUM VOLUME: So how loud is “loud enough”? To establish the upper end of subjective tastes, studies show the threshold of pain starts around 120 dB SPL. It seems reasonable to use that as the absolute upper limit. 120 dB SPL is also the level at which even short term exposure can cause permanent hearing impairment. Studies have shown even sustained average levels above 85 dB SPL can cause hearing damage. For more on these thresholds see Sound Pressure Levels. The research indicates the average maximum level should be at least 85 dB, and with classical music, that puts the peak level up to 30 dB higher at a worst case 115 dB). For more typical music peak levels of 110 dB SPL are more reasonable.
LIVE MUSIC: If you monitor sound pressure levels during live performances, rock concerts typically average 110 dB with peaks of 115 dB to 120 dB. Classical performances typically have peaks hitting 110 dB and a much lower average level of around 90 dB or less.
HEADROOM: The 105 – 115 dB guideline established above works fairly well without any extra headroom. But audio purists might want to add another 25% – 100% (1 – 3 dB) more power for a bit of extra headroom so the amp is even less likely to clip any peaks.
Provided are examples of a couple of songs that show these swings as well to demonstrate what I'm saying. 120 dB is a safe bet for ensuring you have your headroom covered. That's the point I'm trying to convey here and why it matters.
No offense, but you seem more confused on this matter than you're letting on.
Moes
79
Jul 17, 2018
jaydunndidditShow me a piece of music that has 110dB dynamic range. You can load the music file into audacity or foobar2000 and look at the dynamic range.
As far as current demands are concerned, it is irrelevant since HD650 requires only 7.45mA for 110dB SPL. Even a $0.50 DAC chip can deliver that current.
jaydunndiddit
3262
Jul 17, 2018
MoesYou are completely irredeemable.
The article I linked to has a song example that hits 114-115 dB. I'll copy it here since you're too lazy to read the objective proof provided:
"Now the peaks hit 5.1 volts in one direction or about 10.2 volt peak-to-peak (the sample in this case is about 9 V p-p). That’s about 3.2 – 3.6 Vrms which is about 114 dB from the HD650’s on the peaks."
Again, you are obviously misguided on this topic. Your subjective opinion on this matter is wholly irrelevant as we have enough objective evidence that argues the contrary.
Moes
79
Jul 17, 2018
jaydunndidditWhat song is it? I can't see? Anyways, let's lay down the facts before we discuss further or go apart.
Your claim: Rock concerts and classical music exceed 110 dB SPL and it translates into record music. My claim: Recorded music or sound has no concept of absolute SPL levels, only relative to 0 dB SPL. Since the dynamic range of music hardly exceeds 30 dB and since a reasonable listening volume at 80 dB would put the peak at 110dB SPL, there is no need for amplifiers with very high voltage.
jaydunndiddit
3262
Jul 17, 2018
MoesThat's your problem is you're assuming an individual is listening at 80 dB. Again, per the article that you're not reading:
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TESTING WITH FLIM & THE BB’s: Next I repeated the above test but this time using the same Flim & the BB’s – New Americatrack shown earlier. I set the volume to where the loudest parts of the track were about at my limit of still being “comfortable”. Now the peaks hit 5.1 volts in one direction or about 10.2 volt peak-to-peak (the sample in this case is about 9 V p-p). That’s about 3.2 – 3.6 Vrms which is about 114 dB from the HD650’s on the peaks. This at the limit of or beyond what most portable amps can manage (the O2 being a notable exception). This correlates well with the 115 dB rule of thumb for highly dynamic music. So, working backwards from the threshold of pain and hearing loss you get 105 – 115 dB. Using live performance levels you get 105 – 115 dB. And testing using my own music, ears, and headphones, I get 107 – 114 dB SPL. So, all things considered, 110 dB SPL seems like a good target if you want to pick just one number. Add 5 dB for really wide dynamic range music at live levels and subtract 5 dB if you listen to mostly Lady Gaga or don’t like it very loud.
HEADROOM: The 105 – 115 dB guideline established above works fairly well without any extra headroom. But audio purists might want to add another 25% – 100% (1 – 3 dB) more power for a bit of extra headroom so the amp is even less likely to clip any peaks.
Again, the points you keep bringing up are irrelevant to what the data shows us. You have provided nothing otherwise except your opinion. As it keeps being stated, these MAX levels are for headroom.
Moes
79
Jul 17, 2018
jaydunndidditIt is not opinion, dude. Basic electrical engineering theory.
I will post my calculations so that anybody can verify it.
HD650 sensitivity 103 dB/V SPL Voltage required for 110 dB SPL = 1*10^((110-103)/20) = 2.238 volt Current required = (2.238/300) = 7.46 mA
Yes. I mentioned several times that quietest part of music is at 80 dB SPL which means the nominal level might be at 90 dB SPL depending on the music. Listening at any levels in excess of 85 dB results in hearing loss. So, one should actually put the quietest part of the music at 65 or 70 dB to maintain one's hearing.
jaydunndiddit
3262
Jul 17, 2018
MoesSeriously, you are irredeemable.
Your statements are more than misleading. A person would have to listen at a continuous level of 85 dB for more than 8 HOURS to cause damage. Even at 100 dB one would need to listen continuously for over 15 min to cause damage. Curious you leave those facts out.
The point still stands that for peaks in music, as indicated above and in the articles I linked to, require a headroom upwards of max 120 dB for transient sounds. So for all intents and purposes having an amp to accomodate these swings is pertinent.
Then, I realize you make statements like this regarding the 650/6XX, " No. It doesn't loves tubes. That is audiophile BS. Any amp with greater than 1 Vrms output should be sufficient to power it."
You're just wholly misguided.
Also, there are plenty of calculators to provide power requirements for headphone and amps. Here's the full chart which still correlates to the articles and charts I shared above:
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Barneyrubble
20
Jul 19, 2018
jaydunndidditgive it up, at this point it's a waste of breath. for someone who keeps quoting matters of engineering Theory, this dude seems to understand almost nothing how about voltage, current and spl.
hyperlinked
304
Jul 19, 2018
mattrisI listen to my 6xx's either using an Audioengine D1 or just an iPhone 7. It sounds better using the Audioengine D1, but I'm quite pleasantly surprised at how good it sounds straight off of my iPhone 7. Certain kinds of music does better with such an underpowered setup, but depending on what your tastes are, you might actually do pretty well with just an iPhone. They sound terrible coming straight out of my MBP though.
The Audioengine D1 works and sounds fine, but it's kind of borderline in being able to drive the 6xx's. I may add a more powerful external amp later, but I'm pretty happy how adaptable the 6xx's are despite their high impedance. A lot of reviewers have said so much and so far as a guy on a budget, I can definitely say I agree with them.
hyperlinkedMy point wasn't that the 6XX would sound "bad" from a phone (or a low-powered DAC/amp) - but that one wouldn't hear (anywhere near) the 6XX's full capability without a high-quality DAC and amplifier.
Tup3x
100
Jul 19, 2018
mattrisIt's often more about the actual quality of amp and dac than lack of power. Some amps may have lots of power but what's the point if they mangle the dynamic range and cause a lot of channel crosstalk? The main reason why something sounds better through proper dac/amp/soundcard is that, for example, phones usually have crap dacs and amps.
Josepfe
49
Apr 2, 2019
mattrisI have tried the 6xx with the players (Fiio X1 II, iphone 6, MacBook Air) with no amplifier at all, with portable amplifiers (such as Fiio A1 or Topping NX1s), with an AV amplifier and with a SMSL Sap II (150 mw at 300 ohm) which was praised by Z reviews, among others. I don't note any improvement in the sound quality (bass, dynamics or whatever). And the volume is loud enough with no amplification at all (e.g. 40% when playing from my Fiio X1 II via line out). So I can be very happy that my ears do not need an additional expense to fully enjoy my 6xxs....:-) Kind regards
JosepfeThe fact that you didn't note any improvement/difference in the sound quality with those lower-end devices isn't surprising. Though, I would be surprised if you used your 6XX with a truly powerful amp (preferably balanced, with a DAC built-in) and could not not tell a difference. I'm happy you are enjoying your 6XXs... but not "fully" just yet.
Josepfe
49
Apr 2, 2019
mattrisThank you for your reply. I don’t think that the SMSL Sap II it’s a low end device, it has a lot of power also to drive my Hifiman 4xx (I rarely go beyond 12 o’clock with it). I have watched/read several reviews (eg the one from Zeos that I referred to) and it seems to be quite OK. He same applies for my 90’s pioneer amplifier and for my AV Denon, they are very good quality devices, connected to turntable and cd/dvd player as well. There are also other reviewers who also state that the Senns are not power hungry (look for example clavinetjunkie in YouTube, he has measurements with the HD600 (which has less sensitivity than the 6xx) with and without amplification, you’d be surprised with the results. I always had the impression that the audiophile hobby gave me more “unsatisfaction” than joy, I was more focused in “how it sounded”, and somehow obsessed with the “it could still sound better” instead of enjoying the music. So, more focus in the toy than in the game. Possibly you are right (I don’t want to argue about it 😄) and the 6xx would improve with better gear. But I’m convinced that the law of diminishing returns fully applies in this case. And I’m not willing to pay a lot of money to get a small increase in the sound quality. To my ears the 6xx are already very good!. They are warm but cristaline, detailed and balanced. They are so pleasant to listen to!. My search is over. I’m enjoying music again. Kind regards and thanks for the exchange.
JosepfeWhile the Sap II offers above-average power, the fact is, it's a relatively low-end device. Your 6XX and 4XX would benefit greatly from more power/current (Watts and Volts). Keep in mind that 'the headphones getting loud enough' is not an indication of sound quality or potential. A headphones impedance rating (Ohms) only defines how hard that an amplifier has to work, and sensitivity (dB/mW) means how loud the headphones will get with a fixed amount of power. But these specifications only begin to tell the whole story. How a headphone interacts with different amps can be quite complicated, and 'pairing' becomes a factor to consider, depending on what sound signature the user is looking for. (Whole essays/books have been on this topic.) Indeed, the audiophile hobby can be confusing and costly. The lesson: Do your research and only buy the best 'toys' you can afford. Fewer - but nicer - things is the way to go, I say. The audio gadget most Massdrop members are waiting to return is the THX AAA 789 amplifier. At $350, no other amplifier in the world can touch it... at even double the price. Compared to your current gear, I'm fairly certain that the sound quality improvement would not be small. Yes, enjoy the gear you have... but I have a feeling your search is not over. All the best to you in your audio endeavors!
Josepfe
49
Apr 3, 2019
mattrisThanks for your reply, you clearly are a knowledgeable audiophile, and a kind person. Best regards!
Josepfe
49
Aug 1, 2019
mattrisHi again :-) It seems that your feeling was completely right as I am back here in the thread... as I am considering to get a more powerful amp. I realized that maybe I´m not getting the full potential neither of my 6xxs nor of the recently acquired AKG 702, which seems to be even more power hungry than the Senns and the 4xxs although they are "only" 64 Ohms and have a sensitivity of 105 db. The question is that the THX-AAA-789 still is quite expensive for the money I had intended to spend in amplifiers. And in the current drop it is still more expensive (400$) than it was in previous drops. So I would be very grateful if you could help me in my decision :-) I´m not sure whether I would use the balanced feature of this amp. I´m not sure of whether the THX is a true balanced amplifier or whether the "balanced" outputs are "simply" more powerful outputs. This is important, because if it is a true balanced amplifier I guess that you would need a DAC with a balanced line out (and therefore an additional cost) whereas if it is not it would suffice to buy balanced cables only. After doing a long and intensive research, I found many good reviews of the JDS-LABS atom, for example this one: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-new-jds-labs-atom-headphone-amp.5262/ It seems that the Atom has in high gain even more power than the THX when using the SE connection (250 mw/150 mw at 300 Ohms) and better signal to noise ratio (124 vs 123). It also has very low output impedance (0.7 ohm) and a perfect flat frequency response. So my main question is whether, in the light of the measurements and reviews, it is worth to spend four times more in the THX than in the Atom. Is there anything that I am missing here?. Thanks a lot in advance for your reply! Jose Pedro
(Edited)
JosepfeHi Jose, Nice to hear from you. I had a feeling you'd return. :-) Yes, a more-powerful amp would allow you to hear all of your headphones closer to their maximum potential... but only if you have a good DAC, as well. As the cleanest, most detailed-sounding, relatively-low-cost amplifier in the world, the THX AAA 789 is well-worth the money. (It's only frustrating that current buyers will have to wait until the end of the year to receive shipment.) You can only use the balanced feature of the 789 if you purchased balanced cables for your 6XX and 4XX. A balanced DAC would also improve the signal chain. But even then, the 789 is not a truly (fully-differential) balanced amplifier. As you surmised, the "balanced" XLR headphone-out is just more powerful than the single-ended 1/4" and 1/8" outputs... but still sounds noticeably better than its single-ended outs. I've heard good things about the JDS LABS Atom. But regardless of specifications, I don't think it will sound as detailed or airy as the 789. But as you noted, it is about a quarter of the price... and could be delivered in much sooner. I'd be happy to help you with a recommendation. Here are my questions for you:
  • Do you own a DAC now?
  • What features/inputs are you hoping to have?
  • Might you consider purchasing a pair of powered speakers in the near future?
  • All-in, what is the maximum you'd be willing to spend on a DAC and amp?
  • Would you intend for this purchase to be your 'end-game'... for at least the next 5 years, or so?
All the best, Matthew
(Edited)
Josepfe
49
Aug 2, 2019
mattrisHi again First of all, thanks a million for your prompt reply and for your willingness to help :-). It is very much appreciated!. Answers to your questions:
  • I don´t own a dedicated DAC (such as Topping D30/D50, etc) to improve the sound of the music played from laptops or PCs. I usually listen to my headphones with hi-res DAC players (Fiio X1 II* Sony NWA35) and also with Ipods/Ipads/Iphones (I´m revealing my taste for Apple devices :-)). In very few occasions I may use the MacBook Air or PC.
  • With the portable players, I normally use desktop amplifiers (SMSL Sap II, Fiio K5) or portable (Topping Nx1s/Fiio A1), the portable I use mainly for the bass boost that they provide.
  • Inputs: for me it would be enough to have RCA inputs.
  • I´m not planning to purchase speakers. I already have fantastic speakers for my HIFI equipments (JBL Monitor studio and Bose Bass Reflex, both manufactured in 1991 and still in pristine condition). So I don´t really need a pre-amp for this.
  • Yes, I would like to stick to your advice and buy the "the best toy", a high quality device that could be considered end-game (if possible for more than 5 years :-)).
But indeed for you to understand why I´m so doubtful I need to explain that I always was a "cost-benefit" guy, and preferred the "optimal price" product instead of the most expensive/best one. That´s why I referred in one of my previous posts to the law of diminishing returns. If I was sure that the THX is noticeable better than the ATOM and that I´m going to "squeeze" all its potential, I would not care about the price difference. I also don´t care about waiting until December to receive it. My only fear is spend a good money in a Ferrari car and then drive it like if it was a Ford Focus, if you know what I mean :-). I hope that with the info provided you could help me to take a decision. *What do you think of portable DAC players such as the Fiios?. They are not precisely cheap and I always assumed that they must as good as the desktop DACs. Is it not the case?. PS notes
  • Would the Massdrop Grace Design Standard DAC balance be a good option to be combined with the THX?.
  • In your first post at the beginning of the thread, you also mention tube amplifiers to improve the sound of the headphones. I know that many people owning the 6xxs are very happy with the Dark Voice or the Little dots. Would they be a valid (and cheaper) alternative to the THX for the 6xxs?. Or still the THX will make the 6xx shine brighter?.
  • What about the Aune T1 DAC/Amplifier?. It is a tubed DAC, and some Drop members state that it is good for both the 6xxs and the AKG702. And its price is really appealing...
(Edited)
JosepfeOk, I think I've figured things out for you. Here goes... If you listened exclusively at your desk - or had better headphones - I'd say the THX AAA 789 with the Massdrop Grace Design Standard Balanced DAC would be a great combo. But since you have headphones you like... and mostly listen with portable players and iOS devices, I think the single best-value device for you would be the new FiiO M11 portable player ($450)... a unit so versatile, it could probably replace all of your current devices... and offers loads of features, above-average power output and sound quality, balanced-outs, USB in/out, Bluetooth in/out, coaxial digital out, a nice touch-screen, and great UI. If you want to continue using your iOS, Sony, and FiiO players, the new FiiO Q5s ($350) would be the device to get. As possible with the M11, you could connect your devices over Bluetooth. And for marginally better sound, it even has a THX amp module available... for an additional $150. Considering your usage habits, either of these devices would be the best bang-for-the-buck options right now. Tip: You should avoid using the RCA or 3.5mm analog-outs when connecting to amplifiers. When possible only use digital coaxial, optical, or USB connections to keep the signal digital until it hits the DAC/amp. Otherwise, the sound will limited by the DAC of the source. While tube amplifiers can preferably alter (improve) the sound of some headphones, compared to similar-price solid-state amplifiers. Some headphone/amp pairings are just special. But tube amps will keep you tethered to your desk. The Aune T1 makes getting into tubes easy, I've heard that its DAC is sub-standard, so you'd be forced to use its RCA-ins. I'll save you the trouble and advise you to skip it, since you're looking for best-value devices only. If you want to be 'desk adventurous', you could try the Dark Voice or one of the Little Dot units... but I'd advise you to hold off on tubes for now. The THX 789 would quite literally "make the the 6xx shine brighter" or at least more-detailed than you're used to hearing. Most tube amps would make the 6xx warmer, depending on the tubes used, of course. Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any questions.
Josepfe
49
Aug 4, 2019
mattrisMany thanks again for your prompt and comprehensive reply!. I will think it over, your response gives many options to follow, which is good, but also opens up new doubts on what approach I should take. I liked your suggestions of Fiio devices, although I am not sure of spending that amount of money for small portable equipment. If I decide to spend it, I will probably go for the Grace Design and/or THX-AAA-789. I will drop off the choice of tube amplifiers for the moment. Following your suggestion of Fiio devices I remember that at the beginning of your thread, you referred to Fiio Q1 Mark II as a budget option for the 6xxs. I did some research on it and it seems to be quite a good portable DAC/amplifier compatible with with Apple devices. So that I could make use of my iPhone, iPad and MacBook Air connecting them to the Micro USB ports via the lightning to micro USB and USB to microUSB cables provided. Am I right in saying that in this manner I would be able to drive the digital signal from the Apple devices to the DAC??. There is also the possibility to connect my Sony NWA35 to the Micro USB port. I'm not sure, but I think that the iPod can only be connected via the line-in port. I think that the Q1II´s weakest point is the low power of the amplifier. Even if it has a balanced headphone out, additional balanced cables must be purchased to make use of it. However, it can also be used as DAC only and connect it to an amplifier via its line-out. Another option of a cheap DAP is the Topping D10, which has several digital ports and has been praised by many users and reviewers (what do you think about Topping DACs/amplifiers?). In summary, I won't probably spend 600€ for the moment going for an end-game solution (Grace Design + THX + XLR cables) and will take a more conservative approach and spend only 100€ in improving the music source, and see how it goes. Thanks again for your extremely kindness and for the willingness to share your knowledge and audiophile experience!. Best regards Jose Pedro
JosepfeYou're very welcome, Jose. I own a FiiO Q1 Mk II and can confirm that it's a budget device... significantly better-sounding than the similarly-priced (and since-replaced with a newer model) Micca Origen+. But it's nothing magical and has its power limitations. (Also, I'm experiencing a battery drain issue that others have also been having.) For these reasons, I do not recommend it. Also, I am recognizing that you are accumulating too many relatively-lower-end products that will never allow you to attain a truly satisfying hi-fi experience.

My advice is to own fewer - but nicer - things. If that means selling some of your players/headphones in order to afford more-expensive (better-performing) products, I say go that route. In the long run, I don't think you'll regret having this approach. If you don't want to sell anything right now, fine. You could consider the O2 + SDAC amp ($150) that's currently being offered. I have the Mayflower Electronics edition, and its sound is significantly better - and more powerful - than the FiiO Q1 mkII. Keep in mind though, the O2 is a desktop only unit, and you mainly use portable devices... most of which probably cannot connect to the O2 over USB. In conclusion, just get the FiiO Q5s... and be done.
Josepfe
49
Aug 4, 2019
mattrisThanks a million again for your kindness!. Best regards Jose Pedro
JosepfeAgain, happy to help, Jose. Oh, and as for Topping, I've only owned one of their cheap speaker amps... never one of their DAC/amps. That might change in the fall when they release the DX7 Pro, which is shaping up to be an end-game all-in-one device for those willing to spend $500-800 for an upscale home/desk-based unit.
Josepfe
49
Aug 19, 2019
mattrisHi Matthew, here I am a couple of weeks and some tests later :-). Since our last exchange I purchased a DAC (topping D10) and started to listen to my lossless files (FLAC and ALAC) from the PC with Foobar2000 player. I also had the opportunity to test the DAC/AMP Aune T1 MK3. I also purchased a second-hand Burson HA-160, an amplifier which, according to all reviews that I found, is a top class hi-fi device. The Burson has two different jacks to deal with headphones of lower and higher impedance, and has power enough to drive power-hungry headphones. I also read that the Burson was designed with the HD650 in mind and that they make a great combo. However I have not tried the Burson with the 6xx but only with my AKG-702 and Beyerdinamyc DT 990 Pro (unfortunately the Senns 6xx I have currently in a different address). As regards the use of dedicated DACS, my listening experience improved a lot (if I had to quantify the improvement, I would say that it has been a 40%) in relation to the use of DAP + amplifiers. As regards the Burson, I admit that it is a very robust, well-finished product, that will probably last for good. It provides a very good, clean and detailed sound!. But...to be honest, I don´t think that it sounds much better than any of my cheaper headphone amplifiers. Maybe the soundstage is a little more deep and the definition a little bit better, especially in the best-produced/recorded files. But If I had to translate it into figures, I would quantify the improvement in around 5%. I have run blind tests with me and three other people and neither of us were able to identify which headphone amplifier was being used. As of today, I don´t really know whether I will keep the Burson for trying with the 6xxs, I really doubt that the 6xxs will scale up so as to justify an investment of 300$.... So, I´m afraid that I´m coming back to my concerns about the law of diminishing returns that I expressed at the beginning of this thread. I don´t think it´s worth to spend the money that this amplifier or the THX-AAA-789 cost, to get a small improvement in the sound quality. If other people consider worth it, I respect it, maybe they are able to note and value the difference, but I am not. Kind regards
JosepfeHi Jose, Nice to hear from you. Ok, the Topping D10 is a good starter DAC. Compared to sourcing the music signal from your devices' analog/headphone-outs, I'm not surprised that you hear a significant improvement. What did you think of the Aune T1 MK3? Were you able to directly compare it with your other gear? While I've never heard the Burson HA-160, I see that it's a 8-year-old Class A amp. While I'm sure it sounds pretty good, it's probably nothing 'special' anymore. At the price you paid ($300) - and considering the other amplifier models now available, like the THX AAA 789 ($400) or JDS Labs Atom (~$100) - I say the Burson is not the best model/investment for you. If you can still return - or sell - it, I would do so... and use the money for either of those amplifiers. Or just get the FiiO Q5s portable DAC/amp, which would suit you perfectly. If you got it, you could still use your Topping D10 + Sap II at your desk/computer. But I'd bet that the FiiO would sound better... and could be used wirelessly with your Bluetooth devices and wired from your other sources (analog, optical, USB). All things considered, I can safely say that your relatively-lower-end headphones are now the bottleneck of your system. If you'd like me to recommend some superior 'great value' headphones, let me know. Regards, Matthew
Josepfe
49
Aug 22, 2019
mattrisHi Matthew, Thank you very much again for the nice exchange and above all for your willingness to help me in my musical endeavors :-). I finally returned the Burson, without testing it with the 6xx. According to all the reviews, it was a perfect match for the Senns, but I preferred to take the conservative approach and save the money for the future. As regards the Aune T1, I found it to be quite similar to the Topping D10, maybe adding a little bit of warmth to the sound, however it might be a placebo effect caused by the tube...in fact, as I said in my previous comments, the sound of the three amplifiers of the test was quite similar and in practice indistinguishable in the blind test. I finally purchased for 110$ and I will keep it as the DAC/amp at work, while I will use for the moment the Topping D10 + Fiio K5 as amplifier at home (the K5 dock also provides digital connection for the Fiio X1 II). At the moment of writing this message I´m listening to my 6xx via Macbook Air (Foodbar2000 for Mac)>Topping D10>K5, with the amplifier at 11 o´clock in low gain. The sound is beautiful to my ears, and it makes me come back to our philosophical discussions. Your statement about my headphones being lower-end is surprising...the AKG 702, Beyerdynamic DT 990 pro and especially the 6xx are regarded as very good headphones by the audiophile community, with hundreds of positive reviews everywhere on the internet. I assume that you know, for example, the website rtings.com, where these three headphones are in the first places (category critical listening, which is the one I care about) of a long list of almost 400 headphones. I am indeed curious to know about your preferences as regards high-end headphones. I have reached to the conclusion that in the audiophile hobby, the same as in life itself, the level of expectations is the key to the final happiness. In order to understand at what level you have set up the level of your "audiophile bar", could you please tell me what would be your score (on a scale from 0-10) for my current gear?. And what your score would be for (for example) the combo GRACE balanced DAC + THX-AAA 789 + one of the high-end headphones of your choice... This could help me to know exactly how far I´m willing to go in the rabbit hole, taking into account the law of diminishing returns. Thanks again and have a lovely evening
Josepfe
49
Mar 10, 2020
mattrisHi Matthew, I hope that you are still around :-). Since our last exchange I have tried a couple of things. I purchased the JDS Labs atom and also got into the little dot MK2 with tube-rolling. I have to say that both amplifiers gave more life to the three headphones that I use more often (Senns 6xx, Beyer DT 990 pro and AKG 702). I still use from time to time my audio-technicas M50x and specially the MSR7, which is my favourite closed-back for use with phone/hi-res players. I´m writing to you because in your message above you told me to come back to you for a recommendation of some superior great value headphones. I am still in a relatively tight budget but I could spend around €600. In the last days I have met across different opportunities to try planar magnetic, either new or second hand. They are the Monoprice monolith 1060 (new, €260), Hifiman Sundara (new, €350), Hifiman HE-560 (new, €650) and Audeze LCD-2 bamboo (second hand, around €560). I have read that the planar magnetics do not pair well with tube amplifiers. Is that true?. Would you have other recommendation in this price range of headphones with dynamic drivers instead?. Any other advise (including recommendations of more expensive headphones that you consider superior great value) is welcome!. Thanks in advance, Best regards Jose Pedro.
JosepfeHi Jose, Yes, I'm still around. :-) Happy to hear from you again. And you're very welcome. Yes, saving money for the future - for fewer, but nicer things - is wise. In the world of audio, the law of diminishing returns is very real... and the rabbit hole is as deep as you can possibly afford. True, setting expectations is key to finding final happiness. The level of my "audiophile bar" is quite high... and I'm still striving to attain it. Unfortunately, I cannot accurately grade your current gear since I haven't heard most of it... but it's relatively low, if I'm honest. (Probably a 4/10.) The JDS Labs Atom and Little Dot MK2 are great next-level amps. Your Senns 6xx, Beyer DT 990 pro and AKG 702 - in stock form - are very good headphones for their price. For your Audio-technicas, you really must try pad-rolling to improve their sound and comfort: start with the Brainwavz Micro Suede Pads (oval). My current headphone rig consists of the impressive-sounding SMSL T1 tube DAC/amp (tube rolled), and various Sivga and Lasmex headphones (all pad-rolled and custom-modified). I also have the Hifiman 4XX and Sundara, but I currently don't own a powerful amp. For casual/daily use, I use the tiny FiiO Q1 mkII DAC/amp. I have to admit, I'm inexperienced with high-end headphones. I have heard great things about the Focal Elex for sale here on Drop. The Focal Clear is said to be noticeably better... but is noticeably more expensive. (I'm tempted to buy one, but for now, I'm content with my current headphones.) Correct, planar magnetic headphones do not pair well with true tube amplifiers. Let me know what you think. Regards, Matthew
Josepfe
49
Apr 23, 2020
mattrisHi Matthew, First of all my apologies for not coming back to you earlier. I was waiting to receive my last purchase (the Hifiman Sundaras) before replying to you. I´m also giving you a quick update of my current gear since the last time that I posted here. My most recent purchases have been the Grados RS2i and the Sundaras. I overall like them a lot, however you already know my concerns when it comes to the famous law of diminishing returns. And I´m afraid that it applies in this case. As regards the Grados, I like its sound profile as it seems to be a little bit less agressive than its cheaper brother the SR80es which I also own. However, had I paid the original price (around 599€ in Europe) I would not keep them. The improvement in its sound is definitely not worth the extra money. I´m only keeping them because I bought them second-half for less than half the price. As regards the Sundara, I probably need more time to adapt my ears (I do not believe in burn-in) to its sound profile, but for the moment I like them a lot, much more than I liked the 4xxs (which I found sound distant and cold, with muffled voices). I have made a vis-a-vis comparison with other headphones that I currently own (e.g. the DT-990 pro 250 ohm and the Sennheiser 6xxs) and I cannot say that they are significantly better, but simply different. Maybe the Sundaras offer a little more clarity and finesse than the DTs, maybe a little bit more depth than the 6xxs....but to my ears the differences are minor and very subtle. My only doubt is whether the Sundaras might sound significantly better with a higher-end DAC. To give you an example, with less demanding headphones such as the MSR7s the sound quality does not significantly improve when changing from the small Fiio E10K to the combo Topping D10 + Atom. I found the response of the Hifiman completely different depending on what gear I used. They sound quite muffled and compressed with the Fiio E10K. It significantly improved when using the Fiio only as a DAC via line out to any of the other headphones, but still did not sound as good as they do with the Topping D10/Atom or with the Aune T1. You say that your DAC is impressive, so I was wondering what is your experience with the Sundaras, whether their sound improves with the SMSL T1 compared with other DACs and also how you compare it with the 4xxs. I do not really know whether with my current gear I am getting the best out of them or whether it is worth to spend the extra money. Kind regards and thanks again for your kindness and good advice. Jose Pedro PS- For a moment I considered joining the new drop for the Thx-789 (currently at 299 dollars) or even going for the SMSL PS200 thx-888 (around 270 in Amazon) but after reading many reviews and opinions (e.g. Audio Science Reviews) I do not think that they can offer much more than the ATOM.
(Edited)
JosepfeHi Jose, Nice to hear from you again. I've never listened to any Grado headphones, and based on what I've heard about them (most notably, their lack of comfort), I have no plan to. As for the law of diminishing returns, keep in mind that price alone is not an indication of quality or performance... and will definitely not tell you anything about equipment pairings... for example, how a headphone will sound with a particular DAC, amp, earpads, etc. The Sundaras are impressive, and I appreciate that they sound so different than the 4xxs, with more-present mids and less treble. Compared to other headphones, the Sundara's differences and improvements become obvious once you connect them to a powerful amp. And they are capable of enough detail retrieval to take advantage of a higher-end DAC. The Sundaras sounding muffled and compressed with the Fiio E10K is due to that amp's lower power output. Planar headphones need power! The MSR7 has a relatively low performance ceiling, so it's not surprising that their sound quality does not significantly improve when changing from the Fiio E10K to the combo Topping D10 + Atom. Regarding my experience with the Sundara, 4XX, and my two DACs (SMSL T1 and FiiO Q1 mkII), I'll be sure to let you know once I own the Geshelli Labs Arcel 2.5 Pro amp. I've also experimented with pad-swapping on the Sundara, which requires a ring-attachment adapter. For now, I'll say that allowing more of the driver to emanate sound direct to your ear - with a larger ear cavity - will dramatically improve sound-stage performance. I'll tell you about this in a later message. But for now, I can say conclusively that you aren't getting the best out of the Sundaras. But whether it's worth it to you to spend the extra money will be up to you. Many in this field would say that you're stuck in mid-fi hell... and without investing in a truly impressive DAC and amplifier, you will never hear the best out of your headphones. Most of your headphones are bottlenecks in your system, are redundant, and/or are a needless investment in capital that should be put into a superior DAC and amp. (Remember: Fewer and nicer things is the best way!) I've never heard the Atom or THX 789, but from what I've heard about them, I'm confident that in a blind listening test, I could tell the difference between them. The THX would be more-spacious, leaner, more-detailed, and yield better dynamics. Those on Audio Science Reviews likely didn't directly compare, didn't have good enough headphones (or ears), and/or were looking at the power output specs and saying that 'the distortion level differences are inaudible'. There is so much more to sound than surface-level specifications. What about personal preferences? Not everyone hears the same or listens to the same music! You are very welcome, and I look forward to our next communication. Regards, Matthew
Josepfe
49
Apr 29, 2020
mattrisHi Matthew Aftery some more days spent in getting used to the Sundaras I agree with you that they are impressive, really good headphones and will keep them in my collection. What I like most about them is that they are a kind of jack-of-all-trades (even if master of none), as they do everything very well. They are almost as good as the 6xx for the voices, as good as the DT 990 pros for the bass and detail and as clear as the AKG 702, without suffering any of the well-known issues of the other headphones (congested sound in the 6xxs and sharpness in the Beyers in the high frequencies and some lack of bass in the AKGs). Please keep me posted with your experience with the new amplifier. Maybe not soon, but I take note of your comment regarding the potential of the Sundaras. In fact I checked the availability and price of your SMSL T1 but for the moment I have to allow my pocket to recover :-). However I slightly (and respectfully) disagree with some of the things that you say. First I don´t think that my collection is redundant, as the abovementioned headphones have a very dinstinctive sound profile. Still I would favour the 6xxs when I want more intimacy, the Beyers when I want more dynamics and the AKGs I have in other address, so there is no overlapping. I also do not agree with the statement of the mid-fi hell. For me the audiophile hobby is a process, so part of the fun is exactly to "investigate and test". I don´t think that I would have enjoyed the same had my first and only purchase consisted in high-end gear. As regards the Grados, I find unacceptable that you get more or less the same for the 79$ Grado SR60s than for the 500$-600$ RSis. The build quality is very arguable with the rotating pads that make the thick cable to twist all the time. Also the stock L-pads are very uncomfortable. The problem is easily solved with the S-cushions, which are flat foam earpads. But again, you don´t pay several hundred dollars to wear very cheap earpads. However their sound is unique, either you love them or hate them...and in my case I love them. I don´t think that there can be other headphones so good for rock, music gets lively and powerful with them. But it is also true that the differences between the 99$ SR80es and the $499 RS2is are not significant, so you can buy the cheaper and get 95% of the Grado sound. Last but not least, the fact that the MSR7s may have a low performance ceiling is not a vice but a virtue for me. I find the sound of the MSR7s excellent, with a good soundstage for a closed back, and excellent bass, clear voices and detail level. For people not willing to follow our expensive audiophile path it is good news to have headphones that do a more than good job when connected to an iphone or a DAP. Moreover, they are pretty good-looking and extremely comfortable. And they are the only noise-cancelling headphones which sound more or less the same good when powered or unpowered. So for me they are a keeper as well. In a nutshell: I am overall happy with my headphones and very happy of having purchased the Sundaras. And probably in the future I may try other higher-end DACs/amplifiers (although I am not as sure as you that I could perceive much difference, but the test will be part of the enjoyment). Kind regards and thanks again for the nice exchange. Jose Pedro.
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