Massdrop x Airist Audio R-2R DAC Discussions | Drop

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Massdrop x Airist Audio R-2R DAC

Jun 4, 2018

You listen to recordings all day- music on your phone, dialog on television, radio in your car, etc. With rare exception, these are digital recordings converted to an analog signal played over speakers or through your headphones. Every sound you’re hearing has been processed through a DAC, and all of those DACs are one classification of DAC called “delta sigma”. The Delta Sigma DAC was a brilliant invention because it doesn’t require many parts (making it cheap to manufacture), and it is easy to fit into circuit designs where Digital to Analog conversion is a necessity (but not the focus). This type of DAC, which colors every recording you hear, is based on a process that simplifies the signal (losing some of the detail) and then rebuilds the signal (restoring detail). Similar to freeze dried food however, the reconstituted sound isn’t exactly the same. Delta Sigma DACs change the format of the signal and create extra noise during processing which is then filtered out, you don’t get the recording exactly as it was. A second type of DAC exists, R-2R, a fundamentally different approach to digital to analog conversion. Instead of simplifying and reconstituting, this DAC maintains the detail of the recording throughout the process, at the expense of parts and space. R-2R DACs have been around since the 1980’s but the execution was historically poor, very expensive, or both. To do this style of conversion, you need dozens of very tightly toleranced resistors, and manufacturers simply couldn’t achieve those tolerances in the 1980s. R-2R makes for a better sound, but it takes so much space it requires it’s own box and precision (expensive) parts that are hard to make. It should come as no surprise that this technology was abandoned for many years. In 2016, we met William Tse of Airist Audio, and began a conversation about R-2R DACs. Our goal was to take this beneficial technology, build it into a reasonable form factor, executing a no-compromise R-2R DAC at a price that would reach the majority of our audiophile community.
Two years later, the result is the RDAC. The method used is called sign-magnitude representation. On each channel we have 2 ladders, one dedicated to the positive side of the waveform, the other for the negative side. The purpose of this is to involve a smaller number of changing bits between positive and negative, without introducing too much bias.
Our Partner: Airist Audio Some of you know Airist Audio for their Heron 5 amplifier that has been sold here on Massdrop. The Heron 5 was their first product and a statement that you can make a great-sounding solid state amplifier by paying attention to phase (timing) performance rather than just frequency response (bass-to-treble linearity). They had a different angle to amplification and a clear goal which they achieved. Descriptions of the Heron 5 are never “sterile” or harsh, but warm, natural, and “involving”. The design and execution of the Heron 5 led us to ask Airist about taking on our challenge of making an entry-priced R-2R DAC with the sound and performance of much higher-cost units.They understood what we hoped to offer, had clear ideas about how to approach the design, and believe in what Massdrop is trying to do. (FYI: One of the reasons Airist Audio hasn’t yet followed up the Heron 5 with another product is because part of the team was working on tackling global health issues…turns out that similar technology is helpful in solving audio-related problems as well as tackling disease in populations. Another reason is that they were working on this challenge.)
Community Feedback/Community Validation Great gear makes your music sound the best you have ever heard it. Or, great gear just gets out of the way and you forget about the gear and just listen to the music. We’ve gotten several RDAC units out to community members to be sure it sounds good. We’ll get some review links up and ask them to post here. Some early prototypes were circulating as far back as 2016. In that period of time, we have changed the inputs, the input selection switch, parts used on the PCBs, the form factor of the entire thing (to stack and look good with our amps), along with the power supply voltage & regulation.
Technical Chat William Tse of Airist Audio will have limited availability due to his current projects but will try to be online to answer questions here in discussion for a few days. We will then collect questions throughout the drop and relay the top questions to him in an additional First Purchaser Q&A after the drop ends.
While you can't change the Sigma Delta DACs that are already in your phone and all the various equipment all around you, now you have a choice that you can make for your audio system that won't cost you thousands of dollars.
This is an important launch for us, a high-level affordable separate DAC of great sound quality in a matching chassis to accompany our recent amplifier launches.
We’re excited for pics of your stack and to read if people stay up "way too late” listening to their rigs. :)

Jun 4, 2018

xformulax

274

Jun 5, 2018

CEE_TEETagging in here so that I get notification when you finally respond to the allegations of stealing someone else's design.

Jun 5, 2018

zbells

234

Jun 5, 2018

xformulaxI think it's a little premature for that

Jun 5, 2018

Vote

xformulax

274

Jun 5, 2018

zbellsworked in/around pcb design and semi conductor for 12+ years, <board layout and design look near identical>, it's also taking way too long to formulate a response on their part. I like the dac tech, but not so much if the original creator isn't even mentioned.

Jun 5, 2018

zbells

234

Jun 5, 2018

xformulaxWell you certainly know more than me about this. I was just saying we should let Massdrop and Airist respond before killing them for this lol.

Jun 5, 2018

xformulax

274

Jun 5, 2018

zbellsI mostly agree with you, I only tagged in to get notification when/if they clarify the theft stuff, edited my original posts to be more constructive and less sarcastic.

Jun 5, 2018

Vote

zbells

234

Jun 5, 2018

xformulaxAnd if the response is lacking, this discussion thread is gonna get brutal. I really like Massdrop in general, but if it goes that direction....

Jun 5, 2018

Inorbit

Jun 5, 2018

xformulaxEven if MD and or Airist give sosolar credit now I still won't buy it. And will never buy anything from Airist for sure. MD is not off the hook if they still drop this after knowing it's a stolen IP.

Jun 5, 2018

rslatara

287

Jun 5, 2018

CEE_TEECan you combine this with the CTH to make a nice AIO?

Jun 5, 2018

Vote

Will

8470

Chief Product Officer

Jun 6, 2018

CEE_TEECongrats on this launch Christian! Hundreds of hours invested, finally coming to fruition for the community to enjoy : )

Jun 6, 2018

rslatara

287

Jun 6, 2018

CEE_TEECould you do a run with some nice short cables to link them up to an amp.

Jun 6, 2018

abraxalito

Jun 7, 2018

CEE_TEE 'The Delta Sigma DAC was a brilliant invention because it doesn’t require many parts' - looks to me that in your desire to simplify you went a bit far. The D-S DAC has been able to piggy-back on to 'Moore's Law' which reduced the cost over time because it relied only on components which could be made on digital IC processes. Whereas the older R2R design needs analog IC processes which don't cost reduce much at all over time.

Jun 7, 2018

kris.skjordal

Jun 7, 2018

CEE_TEEWill this DAC come with an EU plug power supply for us living in Euroland?

Jun 7, 2018

verifonix

1181

Jun 7, 2018

kris.skjordalWas wondering this too. How will you handle 220V/EU plug?

Jun 7, 2018

MarcSpence

180

Jun 9, 2018

CEE_TEEFound this ios test from SPAF poster... interesting because all my dacs ”work“ lightning to usb 3 adapter... wonder if this will be addressed/remedied? With the standard CCK cable you simply get the "attached accessory uses too much power" message.

With the Lighting to USB 3 adapter you do not get the power message, but the RDAC is not recognized at all. This is true with, or without, power applied to the adapter.
With a powered hub, known to work with some other DACs in this configuration, the RDAC is not recognized at all.

In this case "is not recognized" means it does not show up, at all, as a selectable sound output device

Jun 9, 2018

CEE_TEE

3480

Jun 9, 2018

kris.skjordalHi kris.skjordal, The global voltage power supply comes with typical US Type A two-prong plug. You may need an adapter for your country’s outlets.

Jun 9, 2018

ridhuankim

669

Jun 12, 2018

CEE_TEEInstead of using a 3rd party adapter which is going to make it bulky and insecure..... Can you produce an interchangeable plugs? Same like how apple power supply has interchangeable plugs for universal use.
Adding an adapter on top of the power plug is going to add a chance of power cuts which might causedamage to my investment.
I think this should be throughly reviewed if massdrop is going to sell to international customers.
I am from Australia so US type plug is going to be trouble.

Jun 12, 2018

ALS1

Jun 13, 2018

CEE_TEEThis is a disaster for U.K. / E.U. & Antipodean potential buyers as using an adapter on a two prong U.S. plug is unsafe, inconvenient and quite frankly insulting. Producing a power supply with country specific interchangeable plugs is a much better solution.

Jun 13, 2018

Uzuzu

1431

Jun 18, 2018

ALS1why downgrade to european anything, move stateside brother where the freedom shines hahaha, jk (nobody is free anymore)

Jun 18, 2018

ALS1

Jun 19, 2018

UzuzuI’ve been tempted in the past to emigrate stateside as Boston & Seattle are great cities, but your incumbent POTUS scares the heck out of me! ;-)

Jun 19, 2018

Uzuzu

1431

Jun 19, 2018

ALS1Uh oh stay in neu-middle-ea--I mean Europe then

Jun 19, 2018

ALS1

Jun 20, 2018

UzuzuDon’t believe everything that Fox News & Trump propagandists broadcast about Europe, as we still live in a free democratic union of liberal countries that practice religious tolerance. Muslims are still very much a minority in the U.K.

Jun 20, 2018

ElectronicVices

2937

Jun 20, 2018

ALS1Our POTUS is a tyrant who played on dumb peoples fears to get elected... that and Russian fake news articles on facebook. We aren't all idiots, just enough of us to be dangerous. Never forgot the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jun 20, 2018