Massdrop x Alex Cavalli Liquid Carbon X Amp Discussions | Drop

Sep 11, 2017

And WHY did I pay what I paid for a LC 2.0 again?! Look I am ALL for deals. I was REALLY torn up between the LC 2.0 and the Schiit offering. I was told I would never see a balanced Cavalli at the LC 2.0 pricing again... I will feel VERY cheated the moment unless somebody explains how the LC 2.0 is different in a better way or I am totally misreading/misunderstanding this... This appears to be an LC 2.0 (minus the RSA balanced output at a FRACTION of the price. Just goes to show you how trust in a maker can be erased...

Sep 11, 2017

KimbaWLionThese drops are not doing good for Cavalli's reputation... Screwing over all the original supporters... I bought his LC but this is it... Very disappointed...

pwnerman

453

Sep 12, 2017

i3lackIt's not going to hurt his reputation haha. You people are just salty you bought a product you thought was going to be exclusive that isn't any longer. Does that have any bearing on the quality of the product? Nope just you being butthurt,

Sep 12, 2017

pwnermanIt was never about exclusivity for me, it was about sound and pricing. Even Cavalli's ad said after this there would be no more because he could not make anything this cheap again! So much for his word. When Schiit gives a price that's it. A Schiit Mjolnir is $849 or was it $799 at the time. Same price at the LC 2.0 and its always about value and quality for me. I truly believed I would never get a chance to ever own a Cavalli amp at that that price point and Alex Cavalli said so himself.

Will

8470

Chief Product Officer

Sep 13, 2017

KimbaWLion Hey KimbaWLion, Thanks for joining the discussion! I think it's important to clarify a couple things related to your post (and similar posts from other folks in this discussion). If anything, this explanation will probably make you more frustrated, but at least that new frustration will be directed at the right source. You reference a two-part statement made by Alex. First, he wouldn't make any more liquid carbons. Second, he could never make anything so cheap again. Both of these statements are accurate and Alex has kept his word. The amplifier you bought was made in the United States by Cavalli Audio, a small audiophile company headed by Alex Cavalli. The amplifier had certain inputs, outputs, components, and internal power supply. The combination was called “Cavalli Audio Liquid Carbon”. The Massdrop x Alex Cavalli Liquid Carbon X is made by Massdrop, a larger company covering many enthusiast communities & manufacturing in China. The amplifier has the same sonic performance and specifications as the most recent Liquid Carbon revision because it shares the circuit design. However, the outputs are different, the inputs are different, the housing/form factor are different, and some components (notably the volume pot and power supply) are different. Alex's statement is still accurate, in both parts. He has not made any more Liquid Carbons- and as far as I know, Cavalli Audio has not produced any new products at/or below the price of the two Liquid Carbon runs. Now, while that answers questions about "Alex's Word", it's not going to make you any less frustrated. If you’re frustrated, it should be wholly-directed at Massdrop/Christian/myself. We're the ones who approached Alex and explained how we'd like to license his design work for overseas production under our brand. If you're frustrated about the (now more) probable depreciation of a possession, feel free to shake your fist and curse us. That said, while you're cursing, consider that ~50% of purchases on Massdrop Audiophile products (Massdrop brand + collaborations) come from people with no association to the audiophile community. At this point, the K7XX has directly introduced 10,000+ people to the audiophile community, and who knows how many friends and family members beyond the purchaser themselves.
Whether it's a collaboration based on community feedback, or licensing a design for production via our infrastructure, we're making the audiophile community accessible to hundreds of thousands of new people.
More people in the community means total market size increase, means competition, and competition in a preference based industry means an increasingly rich product offering for the community members. Is this good or bad? As someone who remembers being 13, consuming all the eye-candy head-fi had to offer, wishing I didn’t have to save so long to get something worthwhile, I think it’s a good thing, but what do you think? There’s a reason this tab is a Discussion : )

EniGmA1987

607

Sep 13, 2017

WillThank you for clarifying things like this Will. I am sure there are many more people besides myself who like to see where a product is coming from and where it goes through. The impression most have is that these collaboration products have minimal Massdrop influence and are mostly done by the original company, in this case Cavalli. Which could lead to frustration since they dont understand something like this is a mass market design produced from a factory in China on an assembly line, not hand built in small batches from the original company. So thank you for clarifying.
Another frustration I think people have is that Massdrop has gotten into the habit of announcing new variations of products within a month or two after a drop has ended. Things like the Fostex THX having multiple models within a few months of each other, various planar designs coming out shortly after each other, and now on the amp side of things with model after model shortly after other drops have finished. Most of the time even before the previous product has even shipped yet. It might be more beneficial to customer goodwill if you announce in advance when you plan on introducing a whole new product line that will include an unbalanced amp, a balanced amp, and a combo unit that all 3 types will be coming, and thus people can plan accordingly instead of jumping on the hype train and then cancelling an order when they see a new one they want more.

As for your next project, it looks like this "stack" needs a balanced DAC in the same chassis design to stack with this amp and maybe even a linear power supply for all the amps and the *maybe coming* DAC. I see a lot of other people here asking for the balanced DAC too.
Would it be possible for you to contact Kingwa from Audio-GD and see if you can get a collaboration going on one of his cheaper DAC designs? He is already a Chinese manufacturer, but isnt in the mass market stuff and is more the audiophile hand built type just based out of China. Maybe you can convert one of his designs with an ES9028 DAC into a nice, somewhat cheap balanced DAC design. The ES9028 can be had in a fully built board unit for $150 on Ebay so I know those DAC designs *can* be had in balanced configuration for rather cheap. And Audio-GD has a great sound and quality so it would be really great to see a collaboration product between your two companies.

Sep 13, 2017

WillFirst hating or shaking your fist at anybody does not help anyone. Second, I am all for deals, I mean who isn't right? This is a little different in my opinion so take this for what it's worth. Cavalli has always been an considered an exclusive name in the headphone amp world and as you well you know with most of his amps costing $1000s. So when a deal comes out for $599 then $799 it takes you to a thought process on what to buy at this amount. Schiit and Cavalli are both made in America and have excellent reputations and I sweated a lot of bullets on what to buy at the time the LC 2.0 or the Schiit Mjlonir 2 and I REALLY thought about it and most of the people in Head-fi leaned me toward the Cavalli since the price, quality and the his reputation for on the exclusive side. I have owned Schiit gear for years and it took a persuasion to switch me to buying the LC 2.0.
So to me , at least, it's a word game that Alex at Cavalli is making no more vs. farming them out to China and MassDrop just using his designs, it IS called the Cavalli X MassDrop Liquid Carbon so we can agree to disagree. I mean a MassDrop Discount is fine but a whopping 60% is a tuff nut to swallow as it destroys any resale for the future when one wants to take that next step up. I am all for discussion but in the end it means I should have bought the Schiit Mjlonir 2 and the been lucky to buy the Cavalli x MassDrop LQ now... I really am not into collecting Headphone Amps that can be for others. :-) Money is very hard to come by for most of us and being hit with a loss like that hurts, just how it is, but I did learn a valuable lesson... When you have that matching balanced DAC I will be in. :-)

Sep 13, 2017

WillLol so all this time Alex been fooling his supporters with his called "last production"... Then he sells his license to MD to produce now.... See he doesn't produce anymore, someone else is... GJ Alex... GJ

ixo

Sep 14, 2017

WillThat's completely disingenuous. Cavalli didn't say it would be the last production run of the Liquid Carbon but only done by himself, he said it would be the final production run, period. In fact, it still says that on his website here: https://www.cavalliaudio.com/products/liquid-carbon-2-0-headphone-amplifier
Further, Cavalli is the one responsible for okaying and providing the plans and specs for the production run by Massdrop so why wouldn't folks hold him accountable?

Elsid

697

Sep 14, 2017

i3lackWhat year was that amp introduced and discontinued?

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RockyMountains

478

Sep 14, 2017

KimbaWLionIf you're measuring your sound system by it's secondhand sale value, then that speaks to a specific set of priorities, which are not related to sound.
Does your LC somehow sound worse now that a Massdrop version has been announced? Do you somehow derive less enjoyment from listening to it?
Continuing to use Schiit as your counterexample, Schiit has introduced lower priced products that have affected the resale value of existing products when they cannibalised their own market (e.g. Asguard and Magni). If we preserve the status quo with audio products, they'll continue to stay expensive and unreachable to a lot of people. As someone without a vested interest in high prices or emotional investment in existing gear, I'm happy that there is progress here.

Sep 14, 2017

ixoYep, the fact that Dr. Cavalli chickens out and let Will do damage control shows how much he cared for his supporters. He earned his new title as liar. Alex, you better not show up in the future head-fi events cuz those guys are furious over there. Unless you want to get beaten.

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Sep 14, 2017

RockyMountainsI reread my posts and there is one line about 2nd hand sales, but that is in regard to upgrading in the future. But for as long as I have been into mid to higher end equipment the ability to resell to upgrade is a factor some of the time and is sometimes part of the equation. Almost all my headphones are 2nd hand or 2nds not affecting the sound. I have never had an issue with my LC 2.0 and it sounds great. It was a very hard choice for me at the time and to be honest and Cavalli saying there would be no more made sounded like a plus to me. You should read the Head-Fi Forum at the time the presale for the LC2.0 was going on, you might appreciate things better. I am not sure you get how hard a choice this was for me between the LC 2.0 and the Schiit Mjolnir 2. They were very similar priced, supposed to sonic equivalents, etc. etc. I do not collect amps and tend to be with the same one who knows how long. I am not one of those with super golden ears so it takes a lot to convince me to change. It is just hard to accept $800 to $299 it really is that simply. There is no rage, I bought something based on what was incorrect, IMHO, information. But for you to think future resale value was my main reason, not sure how you got there...
I have no malice for anybody getting one for $299. I just feel how I feel. A discount is nice to others and I never begrudge others a good deal. I just want the best I can get for the money when I have it that's all. Gear changes all the time as do prices. My first amp was a Schiit Lyr there is now a Lyr 2 and I and there is ZERO reason to be upset by that. You may not get where I am coming from and its all good, just realize its more than JUST reselling for later...

AlexCavalli

293

Cavalli Audio

Sep 14, 2017

i3lackI replied when it was needed. I just might show up at future headfi events and take my chances. :)

Sep 14, 2017

AlexCavalliYou got guts bro I like it... I'll forgive u... =) now give us Liquid Crimson/Gold X

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Sep 14, 2017

AlexCavalliSomehow I am not too worried. Violence in anger is never an answer but i think you do get why so many are just a wee bit upset. I am happy for the be others getting a great deal, just seeing the future might have altered my choice in the past. It does not alter my enjoyment of my LC 2 but that money could have been saved for my future balanced SAC upgrade I want. :-)

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Jackula

1743

Sep 15, 2017

KimbaWLionI feel for you. First Disney stole your name, and then Massdrop stole your Pride.
Yes that was a pun. I have nothing else useful to add. Sorry, but I couldn't help myself! :)