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JonasHeineman
5987
Apr 6, 2018
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Hey everyone,
We’ve seen a huge growth in both Blades and Cooking communities over the last year, so we partnered with Apogee Culinary Design, one of the most popular brands among members. The goal of the 8” Vital Chef’s knife was to serve members who are already home chefs with a quality, utilitarian blade, but also help members who are just getting started in the kitchen to have an all-around tool that be comfortable and easy to use, and help them to enjoy learning new skills.
Based on the discussion in that first kitchen knife collaboration, we recognized there that a lot of members who were already enthusiasts of blade steels and cooking tools were interested in other collaborations. So, in our second collaboration with Apogee Culinary Design, our aim is to serve more established chefs with a knife that is just as utilitarian in the right hands, but requires a bit more experience to fully appreciate. The ten-inch blade is 25% longer than the Vital, and the handle is lighter and slimmer - in confident hands, it’s an absolute joy to work with, but it’s a bit large to be “the only knife you need” or “the perfect knife for beginners.”
Although the Gyuto (chef), and Petty (paring) as well as the new Santoku style (meaning “three virtues”) have become very popular in recent years, most traditional Japanese blade patterns are designed for very specialized tasks: the Usuba (single-bevel) and Nakiri (double-bevel) for cutting vegetables, Deba for fileting small fish and poultry, and designs dedicated specifically to cutting cabbage (Kyabeshikiri), carrots (ninjinkiri), eel (Unagisaki), tuna (Magurokiri), bread (Pankiri), noodles (Sobakiri), etc. or even peeling chestnuts (Kurimuki). This Kiritsuke blade shape is, according to many people, the only traditional Japanese shape that is a hybrid blade - meaning that it serves multiple purposes - cutting vegetables, and slicing proteins.
While we do recommend hand-washing, the blade’s Japanese AUS-10 steel core with a kasumi-style, impact-welded cladding in SUS420, is fully stainless - as opposed to many high-end Japanese knives, which use non-stainless, high-carbon steels that can discolor if they are not rinsed and dried fairly quickly and often during food prep. Here’s a bit more info regarding the steel and some relevant comparisons (AUS-8 and VG-10). http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=AUS10%2CAUS8%2CVG10&ni=875%2C874%2C643
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A few housekeeping notes: * This drop is limited to 1000 units. * The magnetic bamboo sheath is included on this drop. It will be available in future drops as an option (+ $20). * Our estimated ship date is July 31st, 2018.
I will be available to answer any questions before the drop launches, thanks for checking it out and to everyone who helps to make this possible!
Carry On - Jonas
Apr 6, 2018
rdodev
632
Apr 6, 2018
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JonasHeinemanWill this be another one of those "Japanese Steel" but made in China? If not, where will it be made and assembled?
Apr 6, 2018
JonasHeineman
5987
Apr 6, 2018
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rdodevThese are made in Yang Jiang, China - the "Capital of Knives and Scissors," by the same manufacturer that produces Dalstrong knives. https://dalstrong.com/
Our Apogee Vital collaboration is made by the same manufacturer, but with US-produced steel. https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x-apogee-vital-8-inch-chefs-knife
Apr 6, 2018
PigmonkeY
1082
Apr 6, 2018
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rdodevSeeing as Jonas says they're made by the Dalstrong factory, i'd have no qualms buying one of these.
They do a KILLER job at that factory.
Apr 6, 2018
Jaggi
737
Apr 7, 2018
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JonasHeinemanCan you confirm the blade thickness which is listed as 1.8mm? Seems very thin for a 10 inch blade, but at least it would help to mitigate the apparent fatness of the blade behind the edge (at least it looks quite thick to me based on the choil shot).
Apr 7, 2018
method_burger
563
Apr 7, 2018
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JonasHeinemanHow was the decision to use Aus-10 made, and not say, VG-10? Pretty curious, because Aus-10 never made too much headway in knives. Neat choice, btw!
Also, whats the limit on this drop? Asking because I missed out on the spyderco delica in sg2, and I dont want to miss another one!
Apr 7, 2018
JonasHeineman
5987
Apr 9, 2018
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method_burgerGreat question! VG-10 is pretty common, and has a decent reputation. It's certainly a respected steel, but it has been reported to be susceptible to chipping, especially when sharpened to lower angles. AUS-8 is also common, and Al Mar puts a really great heat treat on it, but it has a much lower carbon content than we wanted for a kitchen knife of this caliber. We chose AUS-10 because it's more resistant to chipping - this is likely due to the presence of Nickel (adds toughness) and Silicone (adds strength), and the absence of Cobalt (adds hardness). You can read volumes on the metallurgy of knives; I'd recommend starting with the Zknives link above. As with all steels, the heat treatment plays a big role in how the steel performs in its final form. It's as much of an art as it is a science, and something that our manufacturing partner excels at.
Apr 9, 2018
method_burger
563
Apr 10, 2018
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JonasHeinemanI have some pretty 'old' steels made recently, and the heat treat less than fantastic. I think, overtime, heat treat companies just forget to heat treat older steels properly, like BG-42 or ATS-34, and less than common steels like AUS-10 fit into that category, too. Sort of my fear with Aus-10.
Aus-10 seems to be close to both VG-10 and 440C. I never thought 440C was a good cutlery steel, since it doesnt hold an edge that long and takes a bit of work to get back to tip top shape, imo. very wear-resistant compared to VG-10. I never had chipping issues with VG-10, but I usually dont sharpen my kitchen knives that shallow, and I almost always convex. From an alloy standpoint, it looks like a mix of 440C and VG-10, but heat treat really determines the performance of the knife. I'm hoping this has better edge retention than 440C with the sharpenability of VG-10. Pretty excited!
Apr 10, 2018
jjcrisp
4
Apr 11, 2018
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JonasHeinemanAUS 10 is more closely related to 440C in my best understanding, and is a more forgiving steel. What about building a blade in the more traditional sense and put a high carbon core with a softer outer scale
Apr 11, 2018
JonasHeineman
5987
Apr 11, 2018
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jjcrispHey @jjcrisp - Your comparison is reasonable, but 440C does have a lot more Chromium than AUS-10, AUS-8, or VG-10, but no Vanadium or Nickel. I've updated the chart posted above to show 440C as well - you can compare to any steel you want using this awesome website - http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=440C%2CAUS10%2C%20vg-10%2C%20aus8&ni=420%2C875,,,&hrn=1&gm=0
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If I understand your suggestion, you'd like to see us make a blade in "san mai" or similar cladding style, but with a non-stainless core instead of stainless? That's certainly possible - as the Blades and Cooking community grows, we'll see if there's a market for steels like this. We're just getting started here, there are more good things to come - thanks for the suggestion, will definitely keep it in mind. If I'm wrong about what you meant please let me know, and I'm interested to hear if others would also like to see a knife like this with something like Aogami white or blue steels.
Apr 11, 2018
Kavik
5531
Apr 11, 2018
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JonasHeinemanYES. To high end carbon core.
Apr 11, 2018
PigmonkeY
1082
Apr 11, 2018
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JonasHeinemanI'd love a semi-stainless/stainless clad ultra hard carbon steel core version.
I'm talkin' 64HRC+ on the core.
Apr 11, 2018
Andreugv
72
Apr 11, 2018
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JonasHeinemanWhat about making a Honyaki blade? Obviously that would be more of a traditional handmade thing, and difficult to scale it up, but I am sure we can get a nice MD x someone trying! I would totally be in.
Apr 11, 2018
JonasHeineman
5987
Apr 12, 2018
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AndreugvThat would be cool, but you're right about scalability.
Apr 12, 2018
PigmonkeY
1082
Apr 12, 2018
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AndreugvThat's more of a limited small order thing, though. I think you're better off buying from the established outlets for really traditional honyaki. Furthermore, i don't think anyone here, myself included, is set up to really sharpen those (I mean, i have a nice stone collection, but only about 1/2 the grits i think i'd want to tackle one of those, and 0% of the skill necessary). You even need to find a service you would send something like that to, i think it would be too niche or too expensive for most of MD's clientele...You need a sword polisher to do maintenance on them!
Now, if you just want hamon...there's plenty of ways you can mass produce those these days.
Apr 12, 2018
Andreugv
72
Apr 12, 2018
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PigmonkeYYeah just checking to see if MD would be interested. They could get an artisan to produce a big batch (maybe 100), all with the same shape, handle, etc... and that might bring the costs down a bit.
Last one I bought, in Singapore, the seller wouldn't sell the knife to some random dude. I actually had to explain him how I care for my knives and what stones I hsd. He even made me show him how I shharpen knives with a random deba he had in the shop and the finally sold it to me. (Basically had to pass a test to spend 1400 on a knife LOL).
I am sure there are knife aficionados in here that will have the skills and equipment for a small batch of those. Please MD!
Apr 12, 2018
Kavik
5531
Apr 12, 2018
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AndreugvHahaha that sounds like an incredible journey! Would love to one day buy something like that, where the maker cares enough that I have to prove myself. That's flat out awesome.
Apr 12, 2018
Andreugv
72
Apr 13, 2018
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KavikFunny thing, he was actually not the maker. Just a great knife shop and happened to have just 1 nice from a Japanese artisan, old friend of his. You know how japanese guys are... they make a blade and they pour their soul into it, so the friend had to protect it and not sell it until someone worth it came... I happen to have learnt how to sharpen japanese knives from a japenese chef who he knew (by name), and that opened me the opportunity to buy it. Definitly I was not looking for it but when an opportunity to buy such an impressive piece comes, you either take it or lose it!
Apr 13, 2018
Kavik
5531
Apr 13, 2018
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AndreugvAhhh, good friend, too! That's a hefty price tag, but I get what you mean about it being a one time opportunity
Apr 13, 2018
antguycog
0
Apr 13, 2018
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JonasHeinemanAUS-10 is much better than VG-10 in Total Card Cut [TCC] due to the material not being as brittle for sure. I am curious about your thoughts on Swedish Steel for kitchen knives?
Apr 13, 2018
Hrharrell
181
Apr 15, 2018
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JonasHeinemanWhere is the listed blade thickness measured? Can we have a few measurements at the spine and a little behind the edge though the length of the knife?
Apr 15, 2018
Yankchef
37
Apr 20, 2018
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antguycogI am a big fan of Swedish steel for chef's knives, I have a konosuke hh and Richmond laser in aeb-l and absolutely love them. Having stainless for an all purpose knife is a plus imo. My honusuki and suji are ginsanko or semi stainless for knives that won't come into contact with a lot of acidic items carbon is a good choice
Apr 20, 2018
JacksonKnives
8
Apr 28, 2018
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AndreugvNot trying to be a dick, but the utility-for-price is pretty low with differential hardening. Even swordmakers aren't doing that anymore at commercial scale.
Stainless-clad ayogami, on the other hand...
Apr 28, 2018
method_burger
563
May 1, 2018
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JacksonKnivesI really like differential hardening. It's a personal thing, since I like a bit of old-world techniques (when materials weren't as good, so they had to come up with creative and time consuming ways to optimize what they had to make a good tool)
personally, i'm going to make a high carbon steel knife set for myself. really like that stuff, since it requires care and maintenance, which promotes good knife habits in the long run. (unlike cheap throwaway stainless steel knives)
May 1, 2018
14themoney
1395
Dec 8, 2018
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PigmonkeYCould I get a hamon rye with Fritos?
Dec 8, 2018
14themoney
1395
Jan 22, 2019
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PigmonkeYSounds hard core to me!
Jan 22, 2019
Fuzz
396
Mar 18, 2019
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AndreugvDo you remember the shop name/location? I need to go check this place out!
Mar 18, 2019
Andreugv
72
Mar 18, 2019
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FuzzSo that was a while back, but I believe Razorshap at Temple St. is the correct place (had to google for it). Good luck on your knife hunting!
Mar 18, 2019
Fuzz
396
Mar 18, 2019
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AndreugvI know the place, thanks! They've since relocated but are still around. If you're ever in Osaka. Visit Tower Knives. You won't regret it.
Mar 18, 2019
Andreugv
72
Mar 18, 2019
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FuzzLast time in Osaka was over 15 years ago! Been dying to go back as I loved it. I will pin down this place on my map, thank you. Good to know that they are still around, as said I am not sure is the correct place because of the google photos. I remember they had a patio with a shed or something like that, where the owner kept his water stones and sharpened the quality knives.
Mar 18, 2019
CJ27
118
Mar 20, 2019
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JonasHeinemanGorgeous piece. Is there any plan to take this design and put it to more knives, possibly even a multi-piece set?
Mar 20, 2019
SmithyNZ
225
Jul 27, 2019
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FuzzI wish I'd seen this post when you wrote it because I was in Osaka about a week afterwards! I still managed to pick up a few quality knives in Kyoto and Tokyo though.
Jul 27, 2019
Fuzz
396
Jul 27, 2019
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SmithyNZKia ora! I did some shopping at the old Tsukiji outer market and the new Toyosu market too, as well as along Kappabashi. :) My next purchase is likely from NZ! https://www.goulderknives.com/kitchen-knives
Jul 27, 2019
Kavik
5531
Jul 27, 2019
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FuzzOmg, that Thor's Cleaver 😍
Jul 27, 2019
SmithyNZ
225
Jul 29, 2019
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FuzzNZ isn't particularly known for its knives, but wow those are impressive!
Jul 29, 2019
Fuzz
396
Jul 29, 2019
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SmithyNZKiwi knifemakers are gaining attention. Look at Svord too!
Jul 29, 2019
JonasHeineman
5987
Jul 29, 2019
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CJ27Sorry for the slow reply - yes, we have a Nakiri, Petty and Paring in the same style, just search for "Takumi" on the site and you will find them. Quick links here: Nakiri - https://drop.com/buy/massdrop-x-apogee-takumi-7-nakiri-vegetable-knife Paring & Petty - https://drop.com/buy/massdrop-x-apogee-takumi-paring-petty-kitchen-knife
Jul 29, 2019
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