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Showing 1 of 19 conversations about:
One_Eyed_Jackal
150
Sep 12, 2018
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I'm a knife noob, but I recognize that it looks like Damascus steel yet it is AUS-10 (this is mentioned in the description). So, my question is why make it look like Damascus if it isn't? Is that not kind of off-putting? I'm just curious about knife-persons' opinion.
Doopywoopy
53
Sep 13, 2018
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One_Eyed_JackalI imagine that the core is AUS-10 with layers of other steels clad around it to give the damasteel pattern.
jsolar
71
Sep 13, 2018
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One_Eyed_JackalOn this particular knife. The core is AUS-10 and it has 22 layers of SUS420 on each side. So it is indeed damascus. They also add the wave stamping on the outsides to help food release.
Naftoor
291
Sep 13, 2018
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jsolarActually this is not damascus. True modern damascus is two or more types of forge welded metals. In other words if you look at the edge of a damascus knife, you'd see tiger striping of the mixed metals at the cutting edge. Since the SUS420 is not a part of the edge, this can be more accurately called damascus clad. An actual damascus knife would be significantly more expensive than this, provided it's not made of chinesium and unknownium ebay damascus.
I have some doubts whether the stamped waves will actually confer any benefit to food release, as that comes from the profile shape, so unless those patterns are much deeper then they appear, such as a granton knife then I doubt they'll have a benefit. However they might, so I'll withhold judgement until I see it's performance. That being said it's a paring knife, not a kitchen knife. You won't be plowing through pounds of onions or 'taters with it, so food release isn't as important.
In essence it's to give the appearance of a high end piece without spending the money, since the only actual mass produced form of damascus comes in the form of Damasteel, which is extremely expensive to use, or individually made by blacksmiths thus the higher cost you pay for the pattern.
I have some doubts whether the stamped waves will actually confer any benefit to food release, as that comes from the profile shape, so unless those patterns are much deeper then they appear, such as a granton knife then I doubt they'll have a benefit. However they might, so I'll withhold judgement until I see it's performance. That being said it's a paring knife, not a kitchen knife. You won't be plowing through pounds of onions or 'taters with it, so food release isn't as important.
In essence it's to give the appearance of a high end piece without spending the money, since the only actual mass produced form of damascus comes in the form of Damasteel, which is extremely expensive to use, or individually made by blacksmiths thus the higher cost you pay for the pattern.
JonasHeineman
5987
Sep 13, 2018
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One_Eyed_Jackal"Damascus" steel is not specific to a single steel type. In fact, to make etched Damascus you commonly find two types of steels with different levels of carbon content layered, which is what allows the etching to make the surfaces exposed parts of one steel black while the others remain brighter. Depending on how the layers are made and also how they are ground away during the creating of the knife's bevel, different patterns are visible at the surface (think of a topographical map).
"Damascus" is commonly known a centuries-old technique of folding or stacking layers of steel and pounding them together while they are red-hot. This is still done today, in traditional ways and sometimes with more modern methods. Additionally, you have folks like Damasteel, Vegas Forge, Chad Nichols, Devin Thomas and others who are making Damascus patterns by combining many thin layers of two steels inside a steel box that is welded shut, then forged and hammered in a single block.
What you have here is a different and very new process called "impact welding" - layers of metals are slammed with a giant plate that applies so much pressure the two metals actually weld together at a greater depth than just a surface adhesion. The resulting pattern is created much like the ripples on a pond if you toss a few pebbles in - the pattern you see is not present on the die that creates the impact. The pattern is not stamped on after the welding process, it is in fact a result of the welding process itself.
Damascus has been around a long time, but people are still innovating in the field. Thanks for your question, hope this helps.
"Damascus" is commonly known a centuries-old technique of folding or stacking layers of steel and pounding them together while they are red-hot. This is still done today, in traditional ways and sometimes with more modern methods. Additionally, you have folks like Damasteel, Vegas Forge, Chad Nichols, Devin Thomas and others who are making Damascus patterns by combining many thin layers of two steels inside a steel box that is welded shut, then forged and hammered in a single block.
What you have here is a different and very new process called "impact welding" - layers of metals are slammed with a giant plate that applies so much pressure the two metals actually weld together at a greater depth than just a surface adhesion. The resulting pattern is created much like the ripples on a pond if you toss a few pebbles in - the pattern you see is not present on the die that creates the impact. The pattern is not stamped on after the welding process, it is in fact a result of the welding process itself.
Damascus has been around a long time, but people are still innovating in the field. Thanks for your question, hope this helps.
Naftoor
291
Sep 13, 2018
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JonasHeinemanThat is correct. Damascus can take on many forms, depending on the pattern the creator wishes to display. The original damascus being Wootz steel, which was sourced from Indian then most famously worked in Damascus, where it took it's name. As with all great things either the technique or raw material was lost to history, and Damascus steel quickly followed suit sometime in the 17th or 18th century. It's legacy remained though, and blacksmiths have continually attempted to recreate it, The results of those efforts are modern day damascus, more accurately damascus pattern steel using ancient techniques consisting of heat object up to a specific temperature (generally hotter than standard forging temperatures) taking great pains to prevent inclusion of air (which results in scale, oxidized metal which is lost material and can result in the pieces of metal not properly welding to each other) beat unliving object to death, rinse and repeat until two unwilling participants are focibly joined into one functional, primarily decorative unit. Kinda like an arranged marriage if your inlaws were a 2000 degree forge and a man using the two of you as a rudimentary form of anger management.
Jokes aside there are multiple forms of the process, from the standard take multiple layers of steel, tack weld the tack together, or use wire to hold it together like it's a taxidermied version of the beloved family pet, then apply flux (aka 20 mule team borax, used to prevent oxygen from reaching the surface and creating scale by oxidizing the metal. Think rusting except it's occuring at mach 6 due to the elevated temperature you perform forge welding at.) then proceed to heat n beat.
Alternatively, and for fancier forms of damascus such as mosaic, or for damascus using non-stackable pieces (powder, ball bearings, fishhooks, metal shavings etc) you stick it in a square tube of steel, either add argon to displace the oxygen in the canister or add a small amount of paper or other material to consume the oxygen when it burns. Seal the container up, and continue as above.
After it's said and done your many layers of steel should become one solid hunkaburnin' love, which you can then grind off the welds/box and continue to fold it, or forge to shape and eventually etch as Jonas stated above.
Either way, you end up with damascus, which is a fancy name for forge welded, patterned steel composed of two or more types of steel that are mixed (in that they form a singlular block of steel) without being fully interspersed (which would result in a single alloy, instead of two alloys). The edge ends up with microserrations, due to the fact that with 2 different metals you have 2 different wear rates, resulting in a toothy edge.
Explosion welding has been around for at least half a century now, if that's what you're talking about. That being said this is the first I've heard of it being used for knife production. If you mean actually beating it with a power hammer, how is that different than how any other manufacturer produces their clad knives? The real question is, if you take a cross section of one of these knives, is the steel fully mixed, as in actual modern damascus, or is it just a san-mai cladding?
Thanks for the insights Jonas!
Jokes aside there are multiple forms of the process, from the standard take multiple layers of steel, tack weld the tack together, or use wire to hold it together like it's a taxidermied version of the beloved family pet, then apply flux (aka 20 mule team borax, used to prevent oxygen from reaching the surface and creating scale by oxidizing the metal. Think rusting except it's occuring at mach 6 due to the elevated temperature you perform forge welding at.) then proceed to heat n beat.
Alternatively, and for fancier forms of damascus such as mosaic, or for damascus using non-stackable pieces (powder, ball bearings, fishhooks, metal shavings etc) you stick it in a square tube of steel, either add argon to displace the oxygen in the canister or add a small amount of paper or other material to consume the oxygen when it burns. Seal the container up, and continue as above.
After it's said and done your many layers of steel should become one solid hunkaburnin' love, which you can then grind off the welds/box and continue to fold it, or forge to shape and eventually etch as Jonas stated above.
Either way, you end up with damascus, which is a fancy name for forge welded, patterned steel composed of two or more types of steel that are mixed (in that they form a singlular block of steel) without being fully interspersed (which would result in a single alloy, instead of two alloys). The edge ends up with microserrations, due to the fact that with 2 different metals you have 2 different wear rates, resulting in a toothy edge.
Explosion welding has been around for at least half a century now, if that's what you're talking about. That being said this is the first I've heard of it being used for knife production. If you mean actually beating it with a power hammer, how is that different than how any other manufacturer produces their clad knives? The real question is, if you take a cross section of one of these knives, is the steel fully mixed, as in actual modern damascus, or is it just a san-mai cladding?
Thanks for the insights Jonas!
One_Eyed_Jackal
150
Sep 13, 2018
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JonasHeinemanThanks for the terrific reply. My forging knowledge has only been recently opened thanks to the show Forged in Fire, but there is a lot to learn. Thanks for sharing your knowledge on Damascus and other areas.
method_burger
563
Sep 14, 2018
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One_Eyed_JackalThere are a couple of ways to make a Damascus pattern (and probably more that I dont know about)
The traditional way is to weld and fold different grades of steel together. Depending on the folding methodology, you can have different patterns. This is then etched with an acid so one layer oxidizes faster than the other, revealing the pattern. This creates alternating grades of steel on the cutting edge, which helps in certain applications
San-mai (translated as 3 layers) is a steel core as a cutting edge, with 2 different grades of steel welded/hammered to the side. The core is usually a single type of steel, and generally the outer layers are a softer and more stain resistant steel to protect the core (you can also have a damascus core or damascus outer layer, etc.
Etched damascus (probably the most fake) is simply steel that is acid etched with a damascus pattern. You can literally do this with a sharpee, and vinegar at home.
Impact welding(which i suspect is more commonly known as explosive welding) is probably closest to san-mai, but instead of heating and hammering, it is just hammering 2 pieces of steel together with extreme extreme extreme force. It looks like it doesn't create crisp of a pattern than traditional damascus, but it offers the same advantage: As a sandwiched design, SUS420 and nickel silver is extremely stain resistant (although aus10 core is already very stain resistant and relatively tough steel). It also does make food easier to clear from the side of the knife, but food will stick regardless. And it looks cool. Other than that, for most users it is a cosmetic application, not so much a practical one. (as an enthusiast there is not a lot of opportunity to own an impact welded knife, which is why i bought the big one)
Oh 1 thing I do want to mention, if someone has a severe nickel allergy, you might want to think twice about this knife. I have a friend who breaks out in hives when contact nickel silver (very sensitive to nickel), but i'm not sure how said friend will fare with food being prepped by this knife. I decided not to try that out.
The traditional way is to weld and fold different grades of steel together. Depending on the folding methodology, you can have different patterns. This is then etched with an acid so one layer oxidizes faster than the other, revealing the pattern. This creates alternating grades of steel on the cutting edge, which helps in certain applications
San-mai (translated as 3 layers) is a steel core as a cutting edge, with 2 different grades of steel welded/hammered to the side. The core is usually a single type of steel, and generally the outer layers are a softer and more stain resistant steel to protect the core (you can also have a damascus core or damascus outer layer, etc.
Etched damascus (probably the most fake) is simply steel that is acid etched with a damascus pattern. You can literally do this with a sharpee, and vinegar at home.
Impact welding(which i suspect is more commonly known as explosive welding) is probably closest to san-mai, but instead of heating and hammering, it is just hammering 2 pieces of steel together with extreme extreme extreme force. It looks like it doesn't create crisp of a pattern than traditional damascus, but it offers the same advantage: As a sandwiched design, SUS420 and nickel silver is extremely stain resistant (although aus10 core is already very stain resistant and relatively tough steel). It also does make food easier to clear from the side of the knife, but food will stick regardless. And it looks cool. Other than that, for most users it is a cosmetic application, not so much a practical one. (as an enthusiast there is not a lot of opportunity to own an impact welded knife, which is why i bought the big one)
Oh 1 thing I do want to mention, if someone has a severe nickel allergy, you might want to think twice about this knife. I have a friend who breaks out in hives when contact nickel silver (very sensitive to nickel), but i'm not sure how said friend will fare with food being prepped by this knife. I decided not to try that out.
Saucy_Puppet_Show
62
Sep 14, 2018
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method_burgerI'm glad you mentioned the comment about nickel. It is something I have not realized was even a concern in knives. My wife has issues with nickel silver and I'd be willing to bet that this would cause minor problems for her.
method_burger
563
Sep 14, 2018
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Saucy_Puppet_Showyou might want to avoid most damascus, unless they specify what steel they use so you can look up the composition. nickel is really convenient for damascus, because it is very difficult to etch and polishes up really well, so it really brings out the layers. some industry standard damascus also use 15n50, which also has a relatively high nickel content, which is probably bad for your wife.
Saucy_Puppet_Show
62
Sep 14, 2018
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method_burgerCheers mate. The advice is really helpful. I really appreciate the followup.
xylite
38
Sep 14, 2018
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method_burgerI was just about to make a comment about the nickel myself. As a person with a nickel allergy, I don't know why companies keep using it in products. An estimated 10-20% of people have nickel allergies. Fewer people are left-handed.
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