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Koopa
78
Feb 12, 2018
Hey, just wondering what RHc this will be hardened to, and will it be differentially hardened (like 50 RHc on the spine, and RHc 62 on the edge)?
JonasHeineman
5987
Feb 12, 2018
KoopaGood questions! The blade steel is hardened to 63 RHc during heat treatment, but reduces to 58-59 HRc during the manufacturing process. It will not be differentially hardened.
Koopa
78
Feb 12, 2018
JonasHeinemanThat's a shame, from some reading on this steel, don't most of its edge retention properties come from being above 60 HRc?
PartyWizard
39
Feb 12, 2018
KoopaAlso looking forward to this... I’m glad they’re using smaller inclusive edge angles compared to most culinary blades running 20 degrees per side, but in my experience the Shuns and other Japanese-ish knives running high hardness blades in VG-10 tend to chip at the edge, so hope they’re running around 60 HRC...
JonasHeineman
5987
Feb 13, 2018
KoopaAha! Interesting question, allow me to clarify:
Not at all, the reduction is beneficial, and an intentional, normal part of the manufacturing process. Cutlery steels generally go through two processes: 1) austentizing, to harden the blade and 2) tempering, to toughen the blade. It's necessary to reach a higher hardness during annealing than is desired in the final application.
At 63 HRc, any knife would be very, very hard to sharpen and basically destroy a honing steel (that rod they stick in a knife block set, which most people think is a sharpener but is actually just used to straighten or 'un-roll' a blade's edge between sharpenings). It would also be more prone to chipping, especially when sharpened to less than 20 degrees.
In the course of research and development for this knife, I brought an Apogee Dragon knife to a facility for Rockwell testing and found that it was approximately 58.5 HRc. This is the knife that Elliot from FFKW, who is quoted on the page, has been using for the past few months and gave his thoughts on.
It's a good question, especially since we reference the HRc to which the steel is heat treated, and one that I think knife enthusiasts especially will appreciate, so I will add it to the specs. Thanks for asking!
For anyone who wants to learn more about all this: Rockwell scale - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_scale Heat treatment - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_treating
UPDATED: Sorry guys, I meant austenitizing to harden. I've edited the post for accuracy.
Koopa
78
Feb 13, 2018
JonasHeinemanThank you for your thorough reply! I didn't realise there was a benefit to going to 63 before dropping it back down, didn't realise it would have a 'memory' of this prior state. I have a ceramic hone and an Edge Pro Apex, so theoretically my perfect knife I'd spend hours sharpening, and then ensure I don't chop near any bones (chipping). Am hoping this will be an upgrade to the VG-10 58HRc blade I have (which needs frequent honing and sharpening), somewhere near the S35VN smaller utility knives I have.
JonasHeineman
5987
Feb 13, 2018
KoopaYW, happy to share some knowledge. TBH, my own knowledge pales in comparison to the guys who are doing this professionally, but I'm grateful to them and all who have shared their experience. The knifemaking community is a very inclusive and supportive one to be part of, and I try to contribute back whenever I can.
Volumes have been written on various heat treating methods, which vary widely based on the steel and it's intended use. Most manufacturers provide a "recipe" to people who buy untreated steel, and the folks who become great at the process are widely known in the industry. Among custom knife makers, there are two shops that are most commonly used for orders of any size but especially larger ones.
Paul Bos - https://www.buckknives.com/about-knives/heat-treating/ Peter's - http://www.petersheattreat.com/
JonasHeineman
5987
Feb 13, 2018
KoopaPS - The key thing to learn about in steel composition is martensite and austenite, which are the crystalline micro-structures formed in heating and cooling of steel at different temperatures, and speeds, respectively. If you want to see the physical display of the differences, check out blades that have a "hamon." Then you get into the whole world of "edge-quenching" and all kinds of fun stuff, but essentially you can make the blade's edge hard and sharp while the spine stays softer and tougher, giving a "best-of-both-worlds" heat treatment, but it can only be done well by hand.
PartyWizard
39
Feb 13, 2018
JonasHeinemanThe knife world, as you say, is increadibly generous and inclusive, both with knowledge and accessability. Nerdy as hell, but very welcoming.
Thank you for continuing that here with some knowledge dropping for everyone.
Barclid
22
Feb 13, 2018
JonasHeinemanFrom your own reference, Wikipedia:
" Most non-ferrous alloys that are heat-treatable are also annealed to relieve the hardness of cold working. "
I'm not sure what you're going on about, but that part is at least fundamentally wrong. If you mean that the manufacturing process brings the blade hrc down to 58-59, are you implying that the blades are tested post-grind and found to have softened? If so, I'd be more inclined to believe that that is the result of improperly cooled grinding. I own kitchen knives at 63, 65 and as high as 68 hrc and have not run into issues abrading the metal and keeping my edge keen. At 68 hrc, certain whetstones don't cut the steel as fast as I would like but it's far from unmanageable.
Kavik
5531
Feb 13, 2018
JonasHeinemanI'm afraid I need to jump on this bandwagon as well, quite confused here
Here's a snippet from the description of the Yaxell Dragon Fire drop : "The knives feature a blade made from nitrogen-enriched American BD1N steel that has a Rockwell hardness of 63 to maintain its edge." The specs section lists it at 63 as well. To me that would imply that the final hardness is 63, no? When speaking of edge retention in the same sentence.
Further, the designer of the knife mentions the 63 hardness multiple times in the discussion, more then once specifically taking about the finished product (that the blade won't be damaged from the heat of a dishwasher because of the over 60 Rockwell rating). I assume he's not talking about washing the knife in the middle of production? Lol
Another quote from the man himself : "BD1, and BD1N. Are night and day. The nitrogen treatment. Brings the HRC from 56-63. Also BD1N has 19% chromium. This knife should crumble, however again the nitrogen process changes everything. So much so that Carpenter has commissioned new test to try and find out why. The net result is the hardest and toughest steel I've come across in 30 years. I agree we th your assessment of BD1, it isn't anything special. But BD1N is a game changer." I don't see how this could possibly be talking about a Rockwell test before final tempering? Certainly 58hrc in a final product wouldn't be described as something that "should crumble", is the "hardest and toughest", or is a "game changer"?
I mean, I've never sent a knife out to have its hardness verified, and can't tell you specifics of ones I own off the top of my head, but I know I've owned multiple knives that were advertised as over 60hrc.
As others have mentioned, it just means on those knives you use a ceramic rod to hone, because a traditional steel will likely chip the blades. And yeah, they take a little more effort to sharpen, but i've never felt like I needed to put away the stones and pull out the diamond plates or anything.
All in all, 58hrc isn't the worst thing in the world, it has its advantages, but it's not the hardness that people talk about when praising this steel (and by people in referring to both reviews and the knifes designer)
Maybe we could get some input direct from @Deaomega124 on this one as well?
P. S. If you prefer it in video form:
Talking again about the 63 hardness for combating temps in the dishwasher
(I'm not even gonna try to get into the discussion about the "benefits" of that insane curve on that 8" knife... Other than to say I'm glad this one appears to have less of that)
BarclidHey everyone, as the maker of this knife, please let me share some more information. The blanks for knives need to be heat treated before grinding. For BD1N, it’s maximum level is 63, and that is what we heat treat it too. If you heat treat after grinding, the blade will warp, because the thinner edge will expand faster than the thicker spine. After grinding, the HRC number will decrease as you get closer to the edge. This is why you don’t test HRC after grinding. There is no consistency. Every part of the blade will give you a different number. So in the industry, when we claim a knife is a certain number, it is the number we actually heat treated the Blank too.
The real question that no one asks about is how tough is it. HRC is only a part if this. As an industry, we haven’t given toughness a scale yet. I hope we do. In thirty years of doing this, I find BD1N to be the toughest steel I have ever worked with.
(Edit: for clarity, grammar and tone)
Kavik
5531
Feb 13, 2018
Deaomega1214Appreciate you finding your way here and weighing in on this, thanks :)
Still leaves some confusion though around the advertising and the claims discussing 63 in the finished product being what makes it tough and makes it dishwasher safe, etc. Specifically because you speak to the heat of the dishwasher being able to cause more damage at the edge, and demonstrate how well your 63 rockwell edge held up to 150+ dishwasher cycles.... Though here you're saying the edge is really nowhere near that number
So that we may better understand, is what you're saying that other knives on the market don't achieve 60+hrc in the final product either? (YouTube, you state this new steel achieves 63 hrc, "the hardest knife on the market") Many out there claim much higher than this
Barclid
22
Feb 13, 2018
Deaomega1214Okay, so here's my question. We know that heat treating is the entire process and that tempering is the step following the quench. You're tempering to bring the hardness achieved post quench into a tougher, less brittle state, right? So if I have that all correct, you're telling me that you're quenching the steel and then tempering to achieve a post-temper hardness of 63 on your blank. You're telling me that if you were to test that blank post-grind, the edge would have softened but the core of the blank would still be at 63 hrc?
Yes, I appreciate that toughness is an important aspect of a knife. We're just focusing on this one aspect right now since there seems to be some inconsistency in the marketing and we have the Massdrop representative above spreading some demonstrably false information, so I'd like to hear it from the source.
I apologize if I'm coming off as combative, because that's not my intent. I just want to better understand what you're trying to say.
BarclidPlease remember that there a lot of ways to skin a cat. Custom knife work is very different than production. Custom guys all do it differently based on what steel, thickness, blade shape etc. In production we do not have that luxury. The steel manufacturer gives us a spec that we may heat treat the blanc to based on their formula. So that is what we do. The steel on the inside will always be softer than the outside. Much like a loaf of bread. The crust is harder than the middle. When I say that Dragon at 63 is one of the hardest in the market, I am referring to the fact that we heat treat it to 63. This is the same for all production knife manufacturers. What the knife ends up being after grinding is different for every knife. Again it depends on the thickness of the blade, the shape and type of grinding. Layered steel is more consistent at the edge, because the heat treated core steel is very thin to start, and after the impact welding of the outer layers suffers almost no grinding. This is why you can bend layered steel knives. The outer part isn’t heat treated. However when you heat treat thin material to high HRC it will be prone to chipping. This isn’t to say that layered steel knives aren’t great, you just have to treat them kindly and not go chopping your cutting board.
With regards to HRC and formulas, and results, it is very confusing and you will give yourself a headache trying to find the perfect answer. Think of steel makers like bakeries. They all make chocolate cake, but some do it much better than others. I have found Carpenter to be one of the best.
Barclid
22
Feb 13, 2018
I have visited a few knife factories, and seen them test hrc post temper and post grind with no variation. Your claim that you can't guarantee the entire blade to be a consistent hardness is strange to me. It sounds like you're saying that CTS-BD1N can be hardened and tempered to 63 and then post-grind will settle at 58-59 hrc.
I've seen carpenter's data sheet on BD1N and it states peak working hardness is achieved from austenitizing at 1950 Fahrenheit for 20 minutes, followed by a - 100 Fahrenheit subzero treatment for an hour, and finally a one hour temper at 300 Fahrenheit.
So that's the manufacturer's stated peak working hardness. Let's say that you follow those steps properly and you have a knife blank fully hardened at 63. You're telling us that after grinding the knife, the blade is significantly softer (58 to 59 hrc) which, depending on annealing temperature and subzero treatment, the manufacturer states will be the result of tempering temperatures ranging from 400 Fahrenheit up to 800 Fahrenheit. So what it sounds like to me is that your post-temper grinding is not sufficiently cooled to keep the blade below the 300 degrees Fahrenheit it was tempered at, resulting in a softer blade. Rather than invest in properly cooled grinders you've accepted this lower hardness and are playing off the marketed maximum working hardness of the steel while quietly slipping into the specs the fact that it is 58-59.
Let's ignore the other patronizing bits you added. I'm just curious why there's so much inconsistency in the marketing of this knife compared to what should be achievable according to the data sheet provided by the steel manufacturer itself.
BarclidFirst of all, I’m not trying to patronize you - sorry if I came off that way. Not everyone on here is as passionate about the subject as you are, so I try to write in a way that will include everyone.
I need to discuss with Massdrop to make sure we're on the same page with their testing methods and the results of their testing.
Here is what I do know. 3mm stock of Dragon, is going to have more variance than the 2.5mm stock that this knife uses. The quenching on this blade is done in a liquid Nitrogen chamber as opposed to Dragon which is cooled using dried ice. The nitrogen will enhance the anealing process.
There are too many variables that can affect a test, such as blade thickness, cooling process, shape of the blade, rate of the distal taper, flat grinding as opposed to hollow grinding. Where on the blade the test is done. The only consistent variable is what we heat treat the blanc too. So this is the number the industry uses.
Also HRC is only one small part of blade performance. Steel density and molecular structure also plays a major part on this. The nitrogen process in BD1N seems to neutralize the damaging effects of the chromium. Please note that the Cr is 19%. This should Cause the edge to crumble, but it doesn’t. The carbon is also very low. This alloy has some of the lowest magnetic properties out there.
The reviews are out. BD1N has been out there for almost four years. Watch this video below from Ryky Tran from Burrfection. He uses a 2.5mm dragon fire to cut 1/2” rope 633 times. He has a chart that shows that nothing else comes close. He is calling this steel the new bench mark. I expect this knife to be just as good. I recommend people focus less on HRC, and take a look at the overall performance of knives using this steel. At the end of the day how it works is more important than why. I’m very proud of this knife. The handle is amazing and does everything Jonas says. At this price it is a major steal. If Massdrop had turned down the design, I would have launched it at double what they are asking.
(Edit: for clarity, grammar and tone)
BarclidHere is a picture of the heat treating equipment used on this knife.
search
It is state of the art!
FriedShoe
188
Feb 13, 2018
Deaomega1214Let me try a different question: If I buy one of these knives, what HRC will it be at?
All that additional narrative you've added doesn't achieve anything because we're not comparing different steels with different compositions, but rather one steel at different hardnesses. Sure, HRC is not the end all be all, but as a consumer I fully expect the product I am paying for to match it's defined specifications. Wouldn't it be false advertising otherwise?
Here's another BD1N knife at 63 HRC for around the same price: https://www.chefknivestogo.com/riariigy21.html
I won't comment as to whether or not it's a good knife but I know that if I email Mark Richmond about the HRC he's not going to respond with "don't worry about the HRC, just trust me it's a good knife". Your evasive answers and seemingly unyielding need to play the salesmen should serve no other purpose than to turn people away from this product.
Kavik
5531
Feb 13, 2018
Deaomega1214So, what you're saying is that without a doubt each knife will be in the 61-63 range at the edge? If that's true it's a much less worrisome range than the previously mentioned 'intentional' fall off to 58. Perhaps @JonasHeineman can fill us in on the details of MD's independent test?
I agree completely that real world performance means more than any spec sheet, and that the whole heat treat process is as important as steel type. However, that brings up another point about your response; you are asking us to look at the performance of the dragon knife to see how this steel performs, but then say the entire quenching process has been changed from dry ice to liquid nitrogen. Which means we no longer have a simple side by side comparison here. Maybe that does mean this one will have better consistency, maybe it means it will have vastly superior edge retention over the dragon even. But in truth, we can't say, can we? We're looking at a new knife with different geometry and a different heat treat process, so as consumers all we have to go on at this point are pics and specs, which seem to be in question.
I don't want there to be a simple answer, i don't expect there to be. What I do expect though is for there to be consistency between marketing and actual finished products. Assuming the independent testing is done at a reputable facility, there should be no concern and no variation between someone else's results, your results, and your marketing claims. If you "have never seen one drop below 61 at the edge" then at the very least list it as 61-63, i don't think anyone would have batted an eye at that.
AngryAccountant
277
Feb 13, 2018
KavikYeah, i'm concerned about the inconsistency going on here. 58 HRC isn't what I paid for on something like the Dragon. Don't get me wrong, I like the knife, but if I'm sold something being told it'ss HRC 63 and then someone has the same knife tested at 58 HRC, that's a huge variable.
JonasHeineman
5987
Feb 14, 2018
KavikTo clarify, the test that I did was on the blade of a single knife - the 10.5" slicer - and was done on a Rockwell machine with an unknown date of last calibration. This was done by me with help from some colleagues in a knife manufacturing facility, and not by an independent lab.
Further, Rockwell hardness tests are only accurate and meaningful (for comparison) when conducted on a flat piece of metal - there isn't a totally flat area on that slicer, or this knife. That's why, for better or for worse, it is the case that most large manufacturers do test their steel after heat treating and before grinding. [UPDATED: here is the directive given in Section 3.2 of the NIST manual for hardness testing - "For the best results, the test surface and the surface in contact with the support anvil should be smooth, flat, and free of oxides, foreign matter, and lubricants." http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/SP/nistspecialpublication960-5.pdf]
Sorry if this caused any concern. Rather than making any assumptions about this knife based on a single test (of questionable scientific value, performed on a different knife, made by a different manufacturer, using a different quenching process) we should conduct the best test that we can with the finished product.
JonasHeineman
5987
Feb 14, 2018
BarclidHey everyone,
There’s a lot of passion and knowledge being shared in this discussion, and we’re proud to be a community where this kind of engagement is not only possible, but encouraged.
Massdrop is a community of people who are very passionate about their interests. While we celebrate this, we also recognize that passion is emotional. Members who are buying and using these products are have strong opinions, as do the people who design and produce them.
Some of the discussion about Rockwell hardness is about preferences and personal experiences, which is of interest to community members and great to see here. Additional comments have been made about how HRc is advertised generally in the broader marketplace. Again, this is a good academic discussion to have. Many posts have been written in BladeForums and elsewhere in the knife community, and some are accompanied by data.
However, the most important part of this discussion is regarding the HRc of the knife being sold here. Transparency and honesty are of paramount importance to Massdrop, and to me personally. To this end, I’d like to clarify what’s being advertised, and what action will be taken to ensure that all members have the utmost confidence in this and all purchases here.
-- The copy does include a mention that BD1N steel is capable of reaching a hardness up to HRc 63 in heat treatment, but the HRc listed in the Specs section on the page is HRc 58-59. This was added soon after the page was live (afternoon of Monday 2/12/18), based on a comment from a member in discussion asking for more information.
-- We have listed this number because this is accurate to the best of our knowledge, but errs on the lower side for two reasons: 1) We are working from a prototype and not a final production version, so we did not want to claim a hardness greater than what we know can be delivered to members. 2) Our goal with any collaboration is always to under-promise and over-deliver. We hope you will find this to be the case here.
-- Rather than speculate about the final hardness, we will be randomly selecting at least four (4) units from the final production run and having them express mailed here to the Massdrop office for close inspection, as we do with all Massdrop Made products. After they have passed our general Quality Control process, we will send them to an independent laboratory to be tested for Rockwell hardness. We will then post in the discussion to share these results with everyone.
We’ve clarified with our partner that members engaging in open discussion or debate is a normal, healthy part of our collaboration process, and we’ve moderated some of our partner’s posts in which weren’t conducive to factual discussion.
It is worth noting that the vendor does have decades of hands-on experience in the knife industry and shared a lot of good information based on his experience working behind-the-scenes with manufacturers in China, German, and Japan. It is also true that most large-scale manufacturers test Rockwell hardness after heat treatment and before grinding.
In the case of Apogee, blades are tested and must be within 0.5 HRc of the stated 63 HRc before grinding. As stated above, regardless of what everyone else does, we'll find the best test we can for the final hardness and share the results here when we have them.
For further reading about the intricacies of knife testing, here are some suggested reads:
* National Institute of Standards & Technlogy - https://app.aws.org/educators/Library/0000/000587.pdf * ASTM official (paid) - https://www.astm.org/Standards/E18.htm * Knife Art - https://www.knifeart.com/rockwell-hardness.html * Jay Fisher - http://www.jayfisher.com/Testing_Knife_Blades.htm
Thanks, as always, for your contributions to making the Massdrop community a great place to share knowledge and bring new levels of accountability to the enthusiast marketplace.
CC: @Kavik @Barclid
AngryAccountant
277
Feb 14, 2018
JonasHeinemanThis is creating a lot of discussion, and I think your most recent post is a step in the right direction, but please consider the below as well.
What is the timeline for these steps?
From taking from the production run - express mailing - Massdrop QC - sending to independent lab - results from said lab being posted. And when along that cycle will the knife become available for purchase?
Please also include whom the independent lab is, and make available as much of the report you receive back as possible.
Finally, Consider sending knives to multiple labs, as well as perhaps a control knife such as a Victorinox Fibrox so we can calibrate to a knife I bet many many people have or are experienced with.
Kavik
5531
Feb 14, 2018
JonasHeinemanThank you Jonas. That clears up a lot
As mentioned by AngryAccountant, I'm hoping the test into will be available prior to having to click the buy button. Normally I would wait to get some feedback, but I believe the email did say the pricing was only guaranteed on the first round of the drop (not wanting to pay more as this was more about just having fun testing a new steel, but i usually opt for 9-10" blades)
Apologies if things came across emotional or heated. Was just trying to get to some clear answers and what I was reading wasn't making sense
Barclid
22
Feb 14, 2018
JonasHeinemanI'm glad you've made a statement positively encouraging your community in the direction of genuine education rather than marketing-based soundbites. I just have a few points that are relevant to myself and others who use knives like I do.
I work professionally in restaurants in NYC, depending on the restaurant I've worked at serving between 30 and 700 customers per night. I don't say this because this automatically means I have greater knife skill, greater sharpening skill or better insight into how knives should be made and used versus knife makers or home cooks. I say this simply to give a sense of the work that my knives have to do on a daily basis.
In regards to toughness in kitchen cutlery.. I know that this is a big selling point that Apogee seems to want to push and I can appreciate this, however each time it is brought up in discussion it seems to be something that was completely unrelated to the initial conversation. Along the lines of "Hey, why does your spec sheet say 58-59 HRc while the description says it's heat treated to 63?", "Well because after grinding it softens, duh. But did I mention that this knife is super tough and that's why you should want to buy it?" Not at all what I was trying to find out, but thanks for that tidbit. I've personally not found toughness to be a huge issue on the vast majority of prep tasks. I push-cut for most knife works so my lateral force/torquing on the knife is next to none. I don't take my chef's knife to break down hard-boned fish when I do fish butchery, so I'm not going to see the benefit of that toughness from that sort of work either. What I'm looking for in a chef's knife is steel that can take and hold a keen (refined) edge at a low inclusive angle (think 15-20 degrees inclusive depending) with a microbevel and good geometry (I don't want a large shoulder on my knife, I'd rather it be blended and convexed) and a profile that allows for good board contact while push cutting. The push for toughness in kitchen cutlery seems to be directly marketed towards home cooks, which is fine but then that puts the rest of the somewhat deceptive marketing of the product description that much worse to me since they know that their target audience really doesn't know much better.
In regards to the fixation on hardness. We all have preferences, and a good portion of us know that hardness is not the be-all-end-all deciding factor of superior knives. However, it IS a quantifiable measurement being provided in the spec sheet and what's more, the variance from maximum working hardness and the stated measured hardness was a whopping 5 points. That, to be perfectly honest, is astronomical in a high-tech factory. That screams lack of quality control and either the heat treat not being performed properly (which it would be if it did in fact reach 63 pre-grind) or improper grinding. The fact that Apogee sent a prototype to Massdrop that had softened that much and not only thought that that was a reasonable variance, but doubled down on that assertion in the comments is more than a little worrying.
In regards to the steel choice. CTS-BD1N does seem interesting and I would like to try it in a more functional knife than the Yaxell Dragon that I handled briefly. Sadly, from everything I've seen so far, this will not be that knife. The dragon had insane steering issues just push-cutting through a 2 inch cube of sweet potato that I prepared with a separate knife. The profile of most knives coming from Apogee seems to be entirely centered on the idea of rock-chopping, which honestly is a core source of a lot of issues regarding edge retention, chipping and such. Anyway, I digress. I would love to try BD1N in something that seems a little more suited to the steel, like a deba. If Apogee is so confident in its toughness and ability to retain a stable edge, then producing a traditional style deba would be a great choice, which needs to be heavy enough to force through bones but also thin enough behind the edge to efficiently slice fish flesh. At the end of the day, advertising these seemingly miracle properties of BD1N which is being used in a very limited number of knives right now just screams predatory marketing to me. The data sheet on the steel and information on its performance is available with a quick Google search, but the marketing seems to be playing off the fact that most people don't know that, or aren't willing to verify that.
That's not to say that I don't want to see more collaborations with makers using more interesting steel not typically seen in kitchen cutlery, like S90V or M4 or Maxamet (crazy examples, but anyway). But I'd rather you shear off all the excess fluff and just focus on hard facts. You have a community of people willing to put their trust in Massdrop branded collaboration projects, so just drop a little bit of the marketing spin and focus on selling these products on their true, factually-based merits.
Kavik
5531
Feb 14, 2018
JonasHeinemanAfterthought regarding this statement : "and we’ve moderated some of our partner’s posts"
I know this isn't my party to run or anything, but I'm really not a fan of the decision to do that. If it were me I would let customers see the things a maker says to potential customers. To some, how they choose to handle themselves when dealing with customer inquiries is equally important to any other facet of their business.
And a little disturbed to realize that moderators could edit any post here with no indication that it was altered (think forum posts where the system adds a line outside of the text box saying "last edited by so and so at whatever time") I mean, I guess I should've realized since I can edit my own posts without it announcing it changed, but.....hadn't thought about it before now i suppose (edit: and yes, I know there's no way for a statement like that to come across sounding kind. But it doesn't mean anything personal, though it's a legitimate concern when members use these comment sections s sources of knowledge in their research)
JonasHeineman
5987
Feb 14, 2018
KavikFWIW, you can see moderators have noted any edits to posts here, as they do whenever they find it necessary. You may not be running it, but it is your party and we take your feedback seriously. Thanks for letting us know.
Kavik
5531
Feb 14, 2018
JonasHeinemanI did see, and appreciate that...not saying I think anyone would abuse that power, but knowing it's there just puts my hair on edge a bit (I'm a business analyst who occasionally deals with quality control tracking in a medical insurance call center.....tracking who edits what records is a bit of a big deal there, so things like that are always on my mind)
JonasHeineman
5987
Feb 14, 2018
KavikOh man, that's a tough job - you probably have to deal with HIPAA and PCI compliance, too. I see where you're coming from.
JonasHeineman
5987
Feb 14, 2018
BarclidThank you very much for taking the time to lay all of this out, and for sharing your view as a professional working in the industry related to this product for the benefit of everyone here. Contributions like this are what make the Massdrop community what it is.
It is absolutely true that Massdrop thrives - on purchases and especially contributions like yours - from high-information consumers, and we work hard to make sure that's our focus in the copy and photo on every drop page. However, Massdrop is also a place where people discover new hobbies, so we try to balance hard facts with language that is approachable for people who are not versed in the technical minutiae of a new product they might only be seeing for the first time.
Regarding hardness: I want to clarify again that the 58-59 previously stated is NOT a measurement taken of this prototype, or one that was conducted in a very scientific way. That number is based on a single test of a Dragon knife, on a machine with unknown calibration date, outside of lab conditions, and on an angled surface which is specifically known to cause inaccuracy in measurements.
You are correct that 4-5 points drop during grinding would be substantial. We chose to use 58-59 because we were confident is the the absolute lowest that we know the final production versions will be. Partially, this was based on the reading that I got in less-than-scientific conditions. In hindsight, this caused more confusion than comfort and we've re-examined what is the most accurate number that we can use to convey the best information that we have, given that we don't yet have the ability to test final production versions.
Frankly, this discussion has prompted us to do a lot of research into Rockwell testing, contact the manufacturer, and consult with experts in the the field...aside from a few meetings, that's basically how I spent all of yesterday. Based on these discussions, we've updated the Specs to convey what we think is a more accurate. According to the manufacturer, tests on BD1N steel after grinding have never shown less than 61 HRc at the edge.
Updated Spec - "Hardness: 63 HRC (tested after heat treat), 61 HRc (estimated, after grinding)"
Again, we're doing the best we can to be more transparent (not less) by showing post-grinding numbers that are not common in the industry. We will have an independent lab perform the best available tests on the knives and post the results here before they ship to members.
I hear what you're saying about direct answers vs. marketing, and I agree. I can assure you that it is absolutely not our intention - in fact, we take great care to differentiate our presentation of products and focus on "facts, not fluff." To this end, we did ask a number of professional chefs what they thought about this knife, both for kitchen use and home chefs. We did not get a similar response from any of them; quite to the contrary, one chef actually zeroed in on how well it could be used for rock chopping. That being said, if you spend most of your time doing push cuts, you may decide this knife is not for you - that's fair. I do think that characterizations of marketing on the product page (discussion aside) as "predatory" and "deceptive" are overstated, but if you feel it is the case then we need to take a closer look, and we will.
I would agree that most Apogee chef's knives tend to have bigger bellies that work well for rock-chopping, this knife included. I'm not sure which knife you were using, but I'm curious to know if you think the "steering issue" was caused by an uneven edge grind or something else, and if that knife was new or had been sharpened when you got a chance to use it briefly.
I agree that BD1N would make a great deba. I've definitely noticed in using their 10.5" slicer to carve up roast chicken that it's easy to go straight through cartilage and smaller bones almost without noticing. As you know, that's a highly-specialized knife and I'm not sure we'd have enough interest here to make a drop for one happen, but it's a great idea and maybe Apogee will make one as part of a more Japanese-inspired set.
Regarding the CTS-BD1N data sheet, I posted a link in my first post, but I'm including the images here so folks have an easier time finding them.
Thanks again for your post, and taking the time to engage in a really important conversation. Again, this is what makes the Massdrop community great. We sincerely appreciate it.
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Itinerant0930
13
Feb 14, 2018
BarclidJust FYI, if you want to try this steel and push cut with it the dragon fire is a much better option. I own it and the lack of belly combined with the thinner spine make it slide through potatoes, beets etc.
Kavik
5531
Feb 14, 2018
JonasHeineman[Updated Spec - "Hardness: 63 HRC (tested after heat treat), 61 HRc (estimated, after grinding)"]
I think that's a perfectly acceptable statement for a knife that hasn't gone into production yet. Well compromised 👍
Barclid
22
Feb 14, 2018
JonasHeinemanI appreciate your response, and you've covered just about every point I had so there's not much else to say about it until you have a production prototype ready to test in hand.
As for steering, the Dragon knife that I used was the fusion Nakiri. It was sharpened very lightly following the factory bevel prior to me using it, so not enough to change the geometry. There was an insanely noticeable shoulder where the apex bevel met the blade face, which was where steering issues started during a cut. I had to use a significant amount of lateral force to correct the steering during the cut. The issue was still present with rock chopping albeit much less pronounced since you had the tip acting as an anchor.
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