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Joomy
212
Sep 20, 2018
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dandurston
5116
Dan Durston
Sep 20, 2018
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JoomyAre you suggesting a 20D floor is heavy or light? Polyester is more abrasion resistant than nylon, so 20D poly holds up similarly to 30D nylon, which lasts a very long time. Some companies are using 10D nylon for a floor.
I'm not sure what you mean by weirdly heavy - for a reasonably sized, double wall tent it's really light. It's basically got the space of a StratoSpire 1 but far lighter (28oz vs 34oz) due to the more efficient design (fewer seams, no struts, fewer stakes, more volume for the fabric area). Or compared to tents like the TarpTent Notch and the 2019 Sierra Design High Route, the X-Mid is almost exactly the same weight yet quite a bit larger and more feature rich than both. Any 1P double wall tent that is substantially lighter is either much smaller or using DCF.
I am working on a 2P version. That'll be silpoly to start, but not way heavier - closer to the SS Li (28oz) than the regular StratoSpire 2 (46oz). Actually if I were to shrink the 2P to the same dimensions and use the same features, it would weight almost exactly the same despite using silpoly instead of DCF because the X-Mid design is much more efficient geometry (fewer seams, better volume to surface area ratio) and doesn't have struts. As is, the 2P silpoly X-Mid will be moderately heavier than the DCF StratoSpire Li (about 35oz vs 28oz) because it is quite a bit larger (50 x 92" floor instead of 45 x 86) and more feature rich (e.g. larger, more functional vents).
If you're interested in the topic of whether this a similar design to the StratoSpire, I've written a response to that here:
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x-dan-durston-x-mid-1p-tent/talk/2131254
Joomy
212
Sep 21, 2018
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dandurstonHi Dan,
You're right about the weight. I guess I was mentally comparing it to DCF tents rather than other sil-poly/nylon ones. I'm not super familiar with silpoly but given polyester is weaker in tension than nylon I would assume that it is also less puncture and tear resistant. I would never buy a tent with a 10d floor (unless it was 10d graphene fibre or something). But I'm sure a light ground sheet would solve the issue if there is one.
Don't get me wrong, I really like the design. I think the combo of diagonal inner plus rectangular fly is really smart. But it's clearly also an evolution of existing designs. In fact I would argue it's almost a perfect hybrid of the High Route and the SS1. But that's how design works, and IMO people shouldn't give you shit for taking something and making it better. If your 2p design is indeed under 1kg I think I will have to buy one.
You're right about the weight. I guess I was mentally comparing it to DCF tents rather than other sil-poly/nylon ones. I'm not super familiar with silpoly but given polyester is weaker in tension than nylon I would assume that it is also less puncture and tear resistant. I would never buy a tent with a 10d floor (unless it was 10d graphene fibre or something). But I'm sure a light ground sheet would solve the issue if there is one.
Don't get me wrong, I really like the design. I think the combo of diagonal inner plus rectangular fly is really smart. But it's clearly also an evolution of existing designs. In fact I would argue it's almost a perfect hybrid of the High Route and the SS1. But that's how design works, and IMO people shouldn't give you shit for taking something and making it better. If your 2p design is indeed under 1kg I think I will have to buy one.
dandurston
5116
Dan Durston
Sep 21, 2018
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JoomyThanks Joomy. Fair enough. I agree that it's an evolution of existing designs. What I'm a bit sensitive to, is folks dismissing it as just a " knock off" (which you didn't say) - when I think it innovates/evolves/hybridizes/reorganizes ideas into something better.
The polyester vs. nylon topic is complex and it's hard to know how well academic differences translate into differences in the field. Indeed nylon has a higher tear strength and slightly higher puncture resistance, but poly is moderately more abrasion resistant and substantially more UV resistant. So the tear strength of nylon declines steeply over time due to UV degradation whereas poly does not. It's actually quite possible that a comparable nylon degrades to a lower tear strength than poly over the useable life of a tent. But certainly nylon is stronger initially, so you can go lighter - at least if you keep it out of the sun. I've used 7D nylon tarps and 10D poly tarps, and I think those are both at the SUL fringe of how light you can go. Both are pushing it a bit too much for my comfort. A step up from there you have the 15D nylons and 20D poly which I think are similarly reasonable UL choices - still not a fabric you'd want to treat poorly, but going to last a long time with reasonable care.
So yeah poly isn't quite as strong as nylon at the same denier, but you can go up slightly in denier make up for this. So slightly more weight but the no sag is a breath of fresh air after using nylon tents. For trekking pole shelters I think no sag is almost mandatory because there is no spring in the structure to take up sag. We are seeing a pretty strong switch to silpoly with a long list of companies switching in the last year or two (Six Moon Designs, Lightheart Gear, Black Diamond, TrekkerTent, Yama etc).
I'm pretty sure the 2P will come in under 1kg. My estimates are 950 - 1000g. I should have the first proto next week.
The polyester vs. nylon topic is complex and it's hard to know how well academic differences translate into differences in the field. Indeed nylon has a higher tear strength and slightly higher puncture resistance, but poly is moderately more abrasion resistant and substantially more UV resistant. So the tear strength of nylon declines steeply over time due to UV degradation whereas poly does not. It's actually quite possible that a comparable nylon degrades to a lower tear strength than poly over the useable life of a tent. But certainly nylon is stronger initially, so you can go lighter - at least if you keep it out of the sun. I've used 7D nylon tarps and 10D poly tarps, and I think those are both at the SUL fringe of how light you can go. Both are pushing it a bit too much for my comfort. A step up from there you have the 15D nylons and 20D poly which I think are similarly reasonable UL choices - still not a fabric you'd want to treat poorly, but going to last a long time with reasonable care.
So yeah poly isn't quite as strong as nylon at the same denier, but you can go up slightly in denier make up for this. So slightly more weight but the no sag is a breath of fresh air after using nylon tents. For trekking pole shelters I think no sag is almost mandatory because there is no spring in the structure to take up sag. We are seeing a pretty strong switch to silpoly with a long list of companies switching in the last year or two (Six Moon Designs, Lightheart Gear, Black Diamond, TrekkerTent, Yama etc).
I'm pretty sure the 2P will come in under 1kg. My estimates are 950 - 1000g. I should have the first proto next week.
Joomy
212
Sep 22, 2018
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dandurstonHi Dan, good point about UV exposure weakening nylons more than polyesters. My only response would be that if we are talking about floors the fabric is likely to have relatively little UV exposure.
Then again I am also not in favour of over-built products. I think we should be building adequately durable products that can be repaired easily if necessary. If a tent floor is wearing a little thin in one area it is simple to patch. What's not so great is if your tent floor tears in the middle of a SW New Zealand hike (read: wet) and is no longer waterproof. Then again people camp under tarps all the time (although not so much in SW NZ) so you probably aren't going to die. As you say it is a careful balancing act and various people will have different appetites for the "risks" involved.
The no sag qualities of silpoly are very attractive. I am looking forward to seeing your 2P design. I have dabbled in a little gear designing and I love seeing new designs that push the boundaries of weight while not compromising (or even improving on) functionality.
Then again I am also not in favour of over-built products. I think we should be building adequately durable products that can be repaired easily if necessary. If a tent floor is wearing a little thin in one area it is simple to patch. What's not so great is if your tent floor tears in the middle of a SW New Zealand hike (read: wet) and is no longer waterproof. Then again people camp under tarps all the time (although not so much in SW NZ) so you probably aren't going to die. As you say it is a careful balancing act and various people will have different appetites for the "risks" involved.
The no sag qualities of silpoly are very attractive. I am looking forward to seeing your 2P design. I have dabbled in a little gear designing and I love seeing new designs that push the boundaries of weight while not compromising (or even improving on) functionality.
dandurston
5116
Dan Durston
Sep 22, 2018
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JoomyMaterials are an interesting topic and I certainly don't have all the answers. My suspicion for floors is that is abrasion resistance is more important than tear strength because I've never put a major tear in a floor in >1000 nights of camping, but have had some decent abrasion damage. Or thinking about this another way, if a material has a high enough tear strength to suffice for the canopy, then I think it also has plenty to serve as the floor where I perceive demands on tear strength are lower (but maybe not). Puncture resistance is certainly important, but poly and nylon are pretty similar here so it's more of a mute point in the nylon vs poly decision. So I don't know for sure, but suspect that an equal weight of poly would hold up similarly well to nylon in a floor application and perhaps a bit better if abrasion is the big concern.
Not over-building gear is a hard one. Some folks simply want light tents, but other folks say they want a light tent but also expect a tent that will handle unrealistic conditions they'll never encounter - or should never encounter if they're making good decisions (e.g. 120 km/hr winds). It's like the person that buys a huge truck rather than a fuel efficient car because they might need it once to move some stuff in the future.
Also exacerbating this is that ultralighters often want things to be light when they think about the big picture (e.g. "I want a 500g tent") but then when you talk about the details, they're often want to spend a bit more weight here and there. There's arguments like "oh a 70D floor would be tougher and would only add an 25g". Indeed, but if I were to acquiesce on all of these requests the tent would wind up too heavy and none of the folks requesting features would end up buying it. Feature creep on a tent is a microcosm of what can happen with ultralight hiking in general - if you think about buying each piece of gear (or each feature) in isolation then you can easily justify a little increase in weight for a nice feature, but if you start doing this with every piece of gear (or each feature), then slowly your kit grows from 5kg to 7kg (or your tent grows from 27oz to 35oz). So I need to simultaneously keep the big picture in mind while making the small decisions. The X-Mid is 28oz, but it could easily have been 32oz if I made different choices in the small details (e.g. double sliders on the zippers, a door toggle on the small side of the door, mid panel guyouts, adjusters on the floor tension etc.).
With the X-Mid, I knew I needed it nicely under 30oz to be competitive. I also wanted it to be a "coherant design" in the sense that I applied a consistent mentality to all of the design decisions. It wouldn't make sense to have tough #5 zippers if I was using a delicate 7D canopy. Or to design the tent without vents when every other aspect of it is designed towards being highly functional in wet conditions. So the overall design is oriented towards being as light as possible, without giving up any functionality in wet conditions. I didn't want to do a fly that didn't extend to the ground, or tiny vents that hardly do anything etc, even though both would be lighter. So I tried to make reasonable choices and save weight through efficient design rather than functional compromises.
Anyways, thanks for the kind words and feedback. I think the 2P is going to be quite awesome, but it's hard to really know how commodious the space is going to feel until I'm using the prototypes.
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Also seems weirdly heavy. Anyway, nice take on the StratoSpire design, and a great price. A two-person DCF version would be very tempting.