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Waffels
0
Dec 4, 2018
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I love the design and would like to see this made with Dyneema fabric. I think you could increase the square footage and reduce the weight too. Do you have plans for a 1+/2 person tent made with Dyneema weighing around 24 ounces?
dandurston
5116
Dan Durston
Dec 4, 2018
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WaffelsYeah but it's a long ways off. Eventually I'd like to offer the design in 1P and 2P versions in both silpoly and DCF. The silpoly versions will be much more affordable and well rounded since silpoly lasts longer, packs smaller and is more abrasion resistant for a floor, and then the DCF versions will be more specialized since they will be redesigned to be as light as possible (e.g. one vent instead of two, smaller gauge zippers, less beefy reinforcements etc). They will be hybrid designs (rather than full double wall designs) so not as modular or quite as good in sloppy conditions, but lighter.
So the 1P and 2P silpoly tents will be ~28oz and ~36oz, and then the DCF versions will be much lighter at ~16oz and ~22oz. But again, those tents are 2x the price and a long ways off. If you like the design but want DCF, then you may want to order silpoly for now and switch to DCF after a year or two when it is ready since the silpoly is so afffordable. The price will likely rise down the road so you may be able to sell it for what you paid after using it for a year or two if you want to move to DCF. The Silpoly 1P will be the only one in folks hands for hiking next year.
ukgelo
13
Dec 7, 2018
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dandurstonIt would great in a year or two to upgrade the outer to DCF while keeping the original inner one.
Otherreason
5
Dec 16, 2018
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ukgeloYea. I’ll buy that dcf version when it comes out in a 1P to replace my Soloplex. Just use the 0.8; only super careful folks trust the 0.54 in the shelter. I love the none stretch of the canopy of dcf in any quant or similar structure. . I also think for us “once counters” if you go dcf route you might need to consider none zippers on fly doors for weight saving and just less breakable parts from trail dirt. I still haven’t made up my mind on zippers but nice job staying away from yk3 on a high strain and use area I’ve had them break but never a yk5 yet . I dunno maybe if it’s under 19 ounces I won’t mind zippers. Hard to judge. And u know a nice benefit to the floor in Cuban has always been the ability to wipe off and repair so easily with dcf tape so I would selfishly love that too. Also nice job on horizontal packed stuff sac. I feel like everything you put into this tent is relavent.
dandurston
5116
Dan Durston
Dec 16, 2018
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OtherreasonIt's really hard to make a tent that is cutting edge ultralight because inevitably you have to make some compromises if you want the weight to be competitive. What I am leaning towards is making a tent that is extremely light - even lighter than the Solplex - and then it'll be a more niche tent for folks that really place a high emphasis (and dollar value) on going super light. More of a 2 season tent. Then the silpoly X-Mid is the more well rounded, solid 3+ season tent.
So I am planning to use the 0.5oz DCF just like your Solplex (but not for the floor). I think the 0.3oz stuff (that Big Agnes is using) is a crazy choice, but 0.5oz works if folks treat it well and the seams and reinforcements are properly designed. Quite a few companies have been using this stuff for years and other companies are starting to use it (e.g. TarpTent). The problem with the 0.7 - 0.8oz stuff is that it only has half the weight savings compared to the silpoly I'm using now (1.2oz/yd) and you can get nylons that also weigh 0.7 - 0.8oz (e.g. the 7D that Gossamer Gear is using) so that 0.8oz stuff costs a lot more and has nice properties like no sag, but it's a huge increase in price for a modest decrease in weight.
So it's a compromise but I am leaning towards making a super light X-Mid that still provides solid weather protection but ultimately won't last as long. So yeah 0.5oz DCF and #3 zips. I don't think there's a good way around the #3 zips because # 5's are just too heavy to be using on a DCF tent and the clips that Zpacks and TT are using are a pain to use and not robust enough IMO. With that said, I do have an idea for a clip system that is quite different from what everyone else is using and it would be much easier to use. But it would require some custom parts made so I don't know if we can do that. A #3 zipper does wear out after a few hundred nights out, but usually the slider wears out so it's not like it should blow open in a storm. And you can replace the slider. That's why lots of companies are using these on UL products (Locus Gear, MSR etc). Certainly it's a compromise, but the plan for the DCF version is to make a tent that consistently compromises so it still works well for its intended use. So #3 zips, 0.5oz DCF (heavier material for the floor), one vent, single wall etc. None of these are good choices for a beefy 3 season tent, but all of these are good choices if you're making a lightweight 2+ season tent that folks are willing to treat well and not use if a windstorm is in the forecast.
Ultimately the Silpoly version is the much more well rounded tent that is the right choice for most folks. It's more durable material, tougher zips, double wall and thus modular and more fully featured. It's the kind of tent you could use regularly for decade. Also it's available shortly whereas we haven't even started prototyping for the DCF version.
(Edited)
Tullochgorum
15
Dec 16, 2018
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dandurstonA zip tip I picked up from freelance designer Mike Cecot-Scherer. As you say, it's the slider that gives out. So he places two sliders at the top of the zip. If one wears out, you have another in place and ready to go. User simply levers off the worn out slider and everything's good. Yes, a tiny increase in weight. But given that zip failure will be the most common issue with a shelter like this, offering an easy field repair is surely the right trade-off.
(Edited)
Otherreason
5
Dec 24, 2018
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TullochgorumThat’s a smart design point. I hear you on the 0.5 cost: and
i agree
that there are use case scenarios that the 0.5 dcf would work in; think I’ve just grow to like the 0.7 more after backcountry use bc my 0.5 items are wearing thin after a few years - but yea I’m not in an way considerate of manufacturing cost bc I feel by the time I’m ready to bite the bullet on a dcf design I’ve already talked myself into higher price.
I do wonder how many 0.7 vs 0.5 solplex zpack sold last year. Maybe their guidance on that would be helpful to gauge if your own preference aligns with your niche market (mostly second time UL shleter
buyers id imagine). I mention this only to see you succeed of course!
I think your comment on “consistently comprises” is about the smarted approach I’ve heard regarding dcf back county deployables; and perhaps I would embolden you to further explore and push the UL community with a new design, ideals and any other experience you can bring to marketable item.
Aside: My my stupid little dream is a non- laminate dcf fiber mesh to replace a sturdy no see em mesh cuz if you think about it; it’s kind of the last heavy part of the tent. Sorry for the rant but your extremely knowledgeable thoughts and responses evokes
more freeform thought! After listening to the r jordon’s recent dcf podcast I’m not
convinced there is a manufacturing process to make this happen yet.
Otherreason
5
Dec 24, 2018
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OtherreasonAlso have you estimated the dcf tent weight of your exact design as it stands now with yk3 zippers? Just curious bc it’s your deisgn itself that appears most valuable. I’m thinking the difference between the smd trekker silpoly and skyscrape x was roughly 25oz vs 15oz. Not sure if it translates but the was a 0.5 yk3 tent using almost same design. That was about a 5/7th double wall. Again if you are under that 19oz range there’s a lot of market there. Merry Xmas by the way.
dandurston
5116
Dan Durston
Dec 24, 2018
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OtherreasonThanks for comments Otherreason.
There are two reasons why I'm not using 0.7oz DCF. The first is because it's not much lighter than the lightest waterproof nylons out there. Some 7D sil/PU nylons are hitting the market at a finished weight around 0.8oz. Certainly I don't like the sag of nylon, but otherwise that 7D nylon looks like a better choice because it's a similar weight at a much lower price. I suspect it also lasts about as long because while it's not as strong, it also doesn't have issues with pin holes, abrasion and delamination.
The second reason is that I'm not convinced the 0.7oz stuff lasts much longer than the 0.5oz. Both have plenty of tear strength but usually end up dying due to abrasion on the floor, or delamination from numerous times being packed/unpacked. I'm sure the 0.7oz stuff is a bit better but the difference doesn't seem that large.
Your DCF mesh idea sounds really interesting. I don't know if it's possible or not, but it would be very neat. I suspect the market has been too small for something like this to be developed, but maybe some day.
Yes this will be well under 19oz.
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