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Flashman
90
Jan 27, 2018
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Goose or duck down ? This is a good price if made with Goose down for 20deg quilt
Flashman
90
Jan 29, 2018
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mgardneraaThanks for the response. They do not even list the 800 duck down on the Enlightened Equipment website. I though they had the fabric made in china and then sent to the USA to be filled and finished at Enlightened Equipment. I might contact them to see if I can find out. This is looking less and less like a discount on an Enlightened Equipment bag, and more like a joint project to to make a cheaper bag to sell.
DannyMilks
4557
Jan 29, 2018
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FlashmanWhy does it matter if it is goose or duck? It used to be marketed that goose down was superior, but that has long been proven wrong. It's all about the fill power.
We are making the bag affordable by using 800 fill instead of 850 (or greater) fill that EE uses on all their quilts. The change in production location was simply a necessity based on limited capacity in Winona. The profits still go to EE and the staff, even if they aren't making the bags themselves. If you want the 100% made in MN quilt or any sort of customization, EE would be happy to help you, I'm sure.
We are making the bag affordable by using 800 fill instead of 850 (or greater) fill that EE uses on all their quilts. The change in production location was simply a necessity based on limited capacity in Winona. The profits still go to EE and the staff, even if they aren't making the bags themselves. If you want the 100% made in MN quilt or any sort of customization, EE would be happy to help you, I'm sure.
Flashman
90
Jan 29, 2018
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DannyMilksFirst, I want to say I don't think this is a bad quilt, and it is a fair price, it's not a bad deal. What it is not is a discount on the Enlightened Equipment Revelation Quilt being offered at a low price because of a volume pricing on massdrop. I think the description is misleading. Listing this as "the winner of Backpacker Magazine’s Best Quilt Award in 2017 and Outdoor Gear Lab’s “Best Buy” in 2013, 2015, and 2017" The quilt that won best buy is:
Filled with 850 goose down 10d nylon taffeta fabric made in USA 20.19oz
The quilt on massdrop is: 800-fill duck down 15d nylon taffeta fabric made in China. 22.8oz
So it is not made with as good of a fabric, it is filled with less expensive fill, and it is made in China vs USA.
It's not made of the same materiel inside or out and not hand crafted in the USA like the original.
Again, I am not saying this is a bad quilt, I just find it misleading with the description not really pointing out all of the cost saving short cuts that go into this quilt using less expensive fabric, less expensive filling.
As far as Duck vs Goose down, there is a reason that Duck down is much cheaper. One consideration is because ducks are slung lower than geese, their bellies and chests (where down comes from) tend to acquire more odor from contact with the ground. Even after washing, Duck down "can" have an odor (not saying it definitely will), especially in a damp environment. The loft of Duck down is not as good as goose down. For 800 fill that is not an much issue because they are not using the higher loft feathers anyway for 800 fill. Nothing wrong with that,,it's a fair trade off to save some money,.. but lets be honest with the listing and upfront on all of the differences in this quilt.
Filled with 850 goose down 10d nylon taffeta fabric made in USA 20.19oz
The quilt on massdrop is: 800-fill duck down 15d nylon taffeta fabric made in China. 22.8oz
So it is not made with as good of a fabric, it is filled with less expensive fill, and it is made in China vs USA.
It's not made of the same materiel inside or out and not hand crafted in the USA like the original.
Again, I am not saying this is a bad quilt, I just find it misleading with the description not really pointing out all of the cost saving short cuts that go into this quilt using less expensive fabric, less expensive filling.
As far as Duck vs Goose down, there is a reason that Duck down is much cheaper. One consideration is because ducks are slung lower than geese, their bellies and chests (where down comes from) tend to acquire more odor from contact with the ground. Even after washing, Duck down "can" have an odor (not saying it definitely will), especially in a damp environment. The loft of Duck down is not as good as goose down. For 800 fill that is not an much issue because they are not using the higher loft feathers anyway for 800 fill. Nothing wrong with that,,it's a fair trade off to save some money,.. but lets be honest with the listing and upfront on all of the differences in this quilt.
Headnwest
0
Jan 30, 2018
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FlashmanI do like your post and agree with you about 99%, but doesn't the 15D nylon make it a better, more durable outer layer then the 10D?
DannyMilks
4557
Jan 30, 2018
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FlashmanLet's start with some facts so we can have an informed discussion, as your bias is shining through too clearly.
Duck down is more affordable because there is more supply. There is no difference in quality or loft. 800 fill is 800 fill.
What odor you talking about? What type of down are you buying that has an odor to it? This is DownTek down, the best available. It's the same 800 fill that was the base on all EE quilts up until some point last year.
EE won the Best Buy award from Outdoor Gear Lab. We have offered the exact same design with an extra 5% of fill, more durable fabric at a slight weight increase, *and* with a significant price decrease due to a smart balance of material sourcing. Some might consider ours an even better "Best Buy".
It's the design that OGL really liked, and that is why the Revelation is set apart from all other quilts.
Duck down is more affordable because there is more supply. There is no difference in quality or loft. 800 fill is 800 fill.
What odor you talking about? What type of down are you buying that has an odor to it? This is DownTek down, the best available. It's the same 800 fill that was the base on all EE quilts up until some point last year.
EE won the Best Buy award from Outdoor Gear Lab. We have offered the exact same design with an extra 5% of fill, more durable fabric at a slight weight increase, *and* with a significant price decrease due to a smart balance of material sourcing. Some might consider ours an even better "Best Buy".
It's the design that OGL really liked, and that is why the Revelation is set apart from all other quilts.
Flashman
90
Jan 30, 2018
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HeadnwestThe 10D is more expensive fabric because it has to be made very strong (often a tighter weave) to get the strength and be thinner, so it is lighter weight and less bulky when packed down. If weight and compressed size are not a big deal, the 15D fabric is fine. In general, you pay more for thinner fabric, and higher fill down. A 20deg 800 fill bag made with 15D will keep you as warm and hold up as well as a 20deg 10D with 850 fill. The more expensive bag is less weight and compresses smaller, taking up less space in your backpack. My friend has the EE quilt, it is a good quilt just be aware of the changes to this massdrop quilt and make sure it fits your needs.
Flashman
90
Jan 30, 2018
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DannyMilksI said I think it is a good quilt,.. I disagree with how you have written the description,.. It does not clearly point out "all" of the changes that were made to bring the price down. Often massdrop is selling a product that is the same but has a lower price because of volume pricing. This quilt is selling for less because it is made from a less expensive fabric and less expensive down. It's also not cottage Co hand crafted and is made in China. All of that is fine,.. and fair, but I think the description should point out all of the changes. That is the point I am making. I will agree to disagree with you at this point on this listing.
Stepbystep
549
Jan 31, 2018
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FlashmanThere is indeed a difference between duck and goose, but it just depends and there is often some overlap. Duck is generally cheaper because as food they are used in abundance, while geese are not...geese also take longer to mature even when they may be plucked a bit earlier in their growth than is ideal, so there are associated costs of raising the birds that ducks don't have. The "extra" odor from duck is natural but when you smell it in a finished product, that's just poor processing from the supplier and it can be removed easily. If you're an unlucky consumer, you may get gamey smelling goose someday, too. I doubt we see this in the food trade but wild ducks will smell much stronger than those raised on corn and grass. As for the plumes, it's definitely not just all about fill power. The lab cylinders are one thing, but real life use is another, and a smart designer will design baffle sizes and fill amounts a little differently when using duck vs. goose. Most still consider 800+ duck to be kind of a farce...long ago, it was well known that they kind of top out around 700fp, very small amounts of 750fp. The higher numbers are from changes in lab prep before testing, vary by type of testing, and are pretty much not reproducible consistently once the down is in a product and you're out in the field. So all that said, on a practical level duck is just fine for many products. For a product that may be underfilled or is made for warm temps, it makes sense to bump up the fill amount slightly if you can, due to duck's clingier nature and smaller plumes that can cause some cold spots if the baffles aren't well filled, and it's harder to shift it around to balance (depends on the duck down a bit).
Stepbystep
549
Jan 31, 2018
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FlashmanBy the way, if you or Danny or anyone is interested, there was a kid who did his PhD thesis a few years ago on Down...and an awful lot of duck vs. goose in the 200+ pages. Very interesting material and during his long study/testing he confirmed some old information, debunked some, and discovered some new stuff. I saved a .pdf copy of it and would be happy to email it to anyone interested. It's a long read and some of it isn't germane, but it does nicely prove and show the real differences between goose and duck and how those can be incorporated into product design.
Stepbystep
549
Feb 3, 2018
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DannyMilksKinda forgot Massdrop doesn't have a way to private message. Lastzero, Danny, Rebl...wanna post your emails and then delete them? Or Danny, if it were sent to you could you forward it on to others? It's about 14Mb.
lastzero
254
Feb 13, 2018
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StepbystepWanna post a link on say mediafire and we can grab it?
Stepbystep
549
Feb 14, 2018
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lastzeroI wouldn't do that, being someone else's work product, even though it was public and free to download...but!...I just searched and found a link to the paper where you can download all 280 pages of it (some of which is not very relevant to us, although interesting). Probably should have tried that first instead of pretending massdrop was like facebook, eh. It's well worth the read if you want to geek out on feathers.
http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/9268/
http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/9268/
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