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A community member
May 11, 2018
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@Tactical_Keychains we hear your frustration, but why not let your product speak for itself? or keep innovating? if your product is good and needed, then you were bound to face stiff competition sooner or later. whether you want to categorize it as moral or immoral, it doesn't change the legality of this competition or the reality of what you need to do to thrive in the marketplace.
May 11, 2018
A community member
May 11, 2018
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not saying that it's easy, but haven't other makers of great products managed to find ways to leverage social media to increase product awareness? sending samples to youtube reviewers, hitting those hashtags hard, etc. also, aren't there other online retailers (huckberry, touch of modern, for example) who would be interested in taking on your products? you make great stuff -- i don't see why your products wouldn't be able to gain traction over time (you've been at it for six years, i know).
in the end, you gotta do you. but i just don't think it's going to be very effective for you in the long run to try to take down competition, however fair or unfair their advantages may be, in their comments sections.
i'll even review (and return) a sample for you on my channel if you'd like -- i only have ~500 subbers, so my reach isn't huge. but if it helps, that's just more money for you.
May 11, 2018
A community member
May 11, 2018
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i think more people are willing to pay for quality than to complain in a comments section -- in other words, don't listen to your haters who have nothing good to say in the comments. people will pay for good work, good design.
as for the market realities you are facing, you have to adapt to survive -- i'm sure you know this better than i do -- and that might mean changing up your approach to advertising. i don't know what else to say, brother; if your product is good, let people know about it or they'll always stay in the dark.
May 11, 2018
smallbit
1328
May 11, 2018
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Exactly! Just do what Ferrum Forge did and have Chinese kids do it for cheap! But seriously when you got that order for 20k you should have scaled up with an investor. I like yours more. Having to use a hex to tighten the blade instead of using a guide lock system is just lazy Chinese manufacturing imo. *Edit*: also you are sold out of titanium TUKKs sir. Congrats! Now make more :) edit 2: seems the tukks maker madlad has left the massdrop :(
May 11, 2018
A community member
May 11, 2018
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smallbitwhy do you attribute a design decision made by @FerrumForgeKnifeWorks to "lazy chinese manufacturing"? define "lazy chinese manufacturing" for me, please. i've seen a lot of "lazy american manufacturing" -- if by "lazy manufacturing" you mean sloppy finishing jobs, loose tolerances, and inconsistent production. do you really think We Knives took a design from FFKW and then decided to lazily slap it together in the hope that no one would notice and that they could run off with the money?
May 11, 2018
smallbit
1328
May 11, 2018
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Sure I can explain. I have a benchmade knockoff. I will post the link below. Instead of going the full distance in the knock off and posting the correct pyramid screws in the corners they seem to have eyeballed it and the screws are so close to the edge of the wood that it has cracked the wood and fails to retain grasp on the drill hole. The other I have is a Barrage knockoff you can get on amazon and the lock mechanism sits on a shorter cliff than the real one does. Can't see it in my pictures but it does make me nervous about the lock. Yeah I think WeKnives took a design and didn't think through it fully and now there is a hex where there should be a tension button and guide lock rail. That is what I mean by cheap Chinese manufacturing is that they don't think through what they are ripping off in terms of engineering and execute based off easiest manufacturing practices which sometimes creates dangerous products. My OTF fake Benchmade is beautiful but fragile and dangerous because of engineering misunderstandings I believe. Just my two cents.
Also, these fakes are so prevalent because China has a hard time getting Benchmade and good US knives, due to limited manufacturing so they make their own. <--- what the seller told me that sold me the fake Benchmade.
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May 11, 2018
A community member
May 11, 2018
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smallbiti see what you are trying to say, but i don't think it applies to the collaboration between We Knives and the numerous other american companies (such as FFKW) with whom they do contract work. if you read @JonasHeineman 's pinned post, you'll see that, like all of their previous collaborations, the prototyping process leading up to the finalized design involves constant input between @FerrumForgeKnifeWorks and We Knives. the final prototype presented in this drop has all of the approval of both FFKW and Massdrop -- if the design wasn't thought through by We Knives (who were never responsible for the design to begin with), then it also wasn't thought through by either FFKW or Massdrop. in other words, if it's laziness you're seeing, then it's laziness across the board.
as someone who works with chinese-made knives of all price-points as a retailer, i know for certain that there are many chinese knock-off companies that do the kind of slapdash counterfeiting you demonstrated in your pictures. no one's arguing with you that there are sloppily-made fakes of better knives out there on the gray market. but i am suggesting that you can't apply your experience with knock-off manufacturing processes with what's going on between We Knives and FFKW. the world of production knives and collaborative work is bigger than gray market copies from alibaba, etc.
May 11, 2018
smallbit
1328
May 11, 2018
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I really think you are putting these people on a pedestal. Who knows how many people signed off on this gem. https://www.massdrop.com/buy/cccp-kashalot-dress-automatic-watch/talk/1711961
Maybe I can't apply my fake knife experience to FF's new business model. But I think I would rather avoid the risk, the hex, and outsourced manufacturing... and buy a TUKK instead.
May 11, 2018
A community member
May 11, 2018
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smallbityou're entitled to your opinion of my fanboy-ism -- and i could waste time trying to prove that i'm being objective and not at all emotionally subjective, but i doubt that would further the conversation much. all i can say is that i've been pleasantly surprised by the quality of we knives and by the honesty and earnestness of the FFKW guys -- if i'm a putting someone/something on a pedestal because of those experiences, then it stands to reason that you might be a bit prejudiced because of your ripoff knives. (why did you support ripoff makers, anyway?) but go ahead and buy your tukk, brother, it's a gloriously and constitutionally free country. but i'm not buying either of them. i don't need another sharp thing on my keychain haha.
May 11, 2018
smallbit
1328
May 11, 2018
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Curiosity really. An OTF auto wood handled knife shipped to my door for 30 bucks. Morbid curiosity I guess. Same reason I bought a Mosin Nagant for 90 bucks. And even though that knife is questionable in quality... I still don't know how they made it and shipped it to me here in the US for 30 bucks. Macroeconomics be crazy.
May 11, 2018
A community member
May 11, 2018
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smallbithaha a mosin nagant??? i actually just listened to a piece on npr that was talking about how some chinese companies will send things to customers at a lost just to boost their stats so that their offerings appear higher up in search results... crazy, strange world we live in.
May 11, 2018
MadMike32
22
May 11, 2018
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smallbitI mean, shit on the Mosin all you want, but the damn things are nigh-indestructible. Same can't be said for most non-WE/Maxace/Kizer/Bestech Chinese knives.
May 11, 2018
smallbit
1328
May 11, 2018
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MadMike32That is very true. Mosin is indestructible. Not shitting on it at all, just pointing out the reason I bought both items was due to the supercrazy low low prices. The Mosin was a much better purchase. :)
May 11, 2018
Hatuletoh
850
May 11, 2018
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smallbitThank you for that URL--I dont pay attention to "men's accessories" or whatever that category of drop is called, and I'd not heard of that beautiful failure of an accessory. Hilarious, uproarious read.
And made all the more amusing by the fact my old HS friends and I all bought genuine Soviet watches at a early-mid 90s gun show (our fake IDs weren't just used to buy beer, we liked to commit federal felonies by illegally buying weapons...good god teenagers are stupid.).
Back then, gun shows were awash w/ gear left over from the former Iron Curtain countries. Some of it was very bad, like a night vision scope that permanently damaged my eye; but some of it was actually quite good, i.e., I still have 7.62X39 ammo from Bulgaria that Ive been using to murder cans for two decades+ now, and it has never once misfired.
Also very good: those old Soviet watches. There were five purchased that day: two watches are MIA as their owners are deceased; mine is at the bottom of the Tuolome River, but it ran perfectly for about 10 years; the remaining two are still as spot-on accurate as the day they were made. Their owners dont wear the watches anymore because they became rather sentimental keepsakes, but for that reason I know theyre wound and checked periodically, and that aside from some dings and scratches, they're in fine shape.
So I guess the moral is...I dont know...even the communists don't make 'em like they used to, maybe? In any case, thanks for a laugh, and then another one whilst perambulating along memory lane.
May 11, 2018
Omniseed
1972
May 12, 2018
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smallbitBruv, quit with the (not vaguely) racist accusations of child slave labor, WE Knife is an upstanding, professional, and technically competent company that builds midtech-level production knives fora wide range of knife designers and makers.
You do you, but quit disparaging a company with a solid track record like WE just because it fits your jingoistic worldview. There is no lesson for you to learn about WE by looking at your experience with fake Benchmades produced by an obscure factory for sale on AliExpress.
Ganzo makes great low-cost budget folders and frequently makes Ganzo'd versions of existing designs, but what they don't do is make true knockoffs or try to compete with the original knife designs, they make functional working knives that people have no qualms about beating on because they are ultimately a $20 knife. I know that designers can get up in arms over seeing their handle or blade profile replicated in a low-cost Chinese-made knife, but to any enthusiast they are obviously not the same and they are not sold as such. And because of the way that they are sold, nobody is going to go in for a Paramilitary 2 and come out with a G729 and $110 change instead. Someone who wants a PM2 might get a G729 to try the basic ergos out, like I did, and then later buy a PM2 because the ergos and size format were agreeable.
May 12, 2018
smallbit
1328
May 12, 2018
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OmniseedIt was dhgate; not aliexpress. Now who is making racist accusations?! :P Bruv, don't bruv me bruv.
Also not trying to be racist: " China is on the “Tier 2 Watch List” in the U.S. State Department Trafficking in Persons Report.  According to this report, “The People’s Republic of China is a source, transit, and destination country for men, women, and children trafficked for the purposes of forced labor and sexual exploitation. A significant number of Chinese women and children are trafficked internally for forced marriage and forced labor.”  " https://www.loc.gov/law/help/child-rights/china.php
Gotta not buy the products to help with the problem bruv.
May 12, 2018
CrabbyEDC
59
May 12, 2018
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smallbitI visit Ferrum Forge almost every week. I saw them test the protos EXTENSIVELY. Not just look at it and set it down. It went through quite a few variations before the model that is being sold. Everything that is done is for a reason to make it a comfortable but safe utility knife. I also own a few WE knives and other Chinese made knives from solid companies. The quality that is put into them is the same, if not better, than a lot of American made knives lately. The protos of the RUK I played with are quality and I'm confident that the final product will be as well. To say otherwise without any experience with said product and in a xenophobic way no less, is foolish
May 12, 2018
smallbit
1328
May 12, 2018
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CrabbyEDCCool, so you didn't read through my post and missed my point as well. Neat.
May 12, 2018
CrabbyEDC
59
May 13, 2018
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smallbitI have reread through your posts again and come to the same conclusion. What is the point that I and everyone seem to be missing?
May 13, 2018
bambam67
334
May 14, 2018
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whining . insulting and attacking everything is easier.....
May 14, 2018
bambam67
334
May 14, 2018
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smallbityeah because all those 100s of MILLIONS "slaving" in the businesses over there contribute to the problem..and aren't trying to support their own families at all... the last thing id QUOTE was ANYTHING from any government agency ANYWHERE. you point at a US state department " finding" a bureucratic agency that has an agenda within the same Government were the CIA says it doesn't INTERROGATE just " questions" people .... mwahaha. get your computer chair activist ass up and over to china and maybe visit some of these places instead of spewing talking points and cliches from those that speak but DO NOTHING. Jesus wept.
May 14, 2018
smallbit
1328
May 14, 2018
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bambam67I think you are trying to say that because the government lies about interrogation techniques, it should not be trusted about Chinese outsourced manufacturing as well as labor statistics. Maybe? But FF states this product was designed in the US and outsourced to China, so I don't think they are lying about that. Which means that US jobs were lost due to questionable overseas manufacturing savings. And it seems you are trying to say that I am not doing anything... (arm chair activist) but in fact I am doing the act of - "not buying Chinese outsourced products". While it is the minimal of what I am capable of in terms of societal impact, it is still something.
May 14, 2018
CrabbyEDC
59
May 14, 2018
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smallbitAh ok this argument. US jobs aren't lost because US manufacturing is putting itself out of business right now with pricing, poor QC and honestly not waiting to take new work. I have personal experience with this for my business. After trying to work with MULTIPLE companies, who didn't want the work for a simple break and weld job, we had to go to a Mexico based company. Ferrum Forge wanted and tried the get a US based company, sadly they couldn't because of the pricing and abilities of US manufacturing. When it comes to a TUKK, the RUK is that much different in the areas that matters, look and performance. I don't like TUKKs honestly so Tactical Keychain hasn't lost a customer since I wouldn't have been one in the first place. Clearly everyone that has joined the drop has a similar view. So enjoy your opinion and the warm fuzzy feeling you're getting from not buying overseas.
May 14, 2018
smallbit
1328
May 15, 2018
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CrabbyEDC" I don't like TUKKs honestly " Well don't take it out on me! lol
I am not trying to make an argument as we are not in one. I was just stating my opinion and you aren't going to change it no matter how much you whine at me.
May 15, 2018
bambam67
334
May 15, 2018
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smallbitquestionable? how? because it was overseas? show whats questionable about them? youre stereotyping and showing a unsupportable bias. minimum of social impact? SOCIAL? one could say you are hurting the families of the Chinese workers by not buying based on quality and product.. instead youre holding people trying to feed their own families responsible for what SOME government elites have done...i think that's not only hypocritical but bigoted. MURiCA is about capitalism, about competition. and yet...you want to define your principles based on culture and countries. but then opinions vary...buy what you want... i will buy what i choose. good luck.
May 15, 2018
bambam67
334
May 15, 2018
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CrabbyEDCbecause...MURICA. even when embracing MURICA is destroying it.
May 15, 2018
CrabbyEDC
59
May 15, 2018
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smallbitYou came into the discussion talking about how the RUKK has "lazy chinese manufacturing" and then proceeded to say that your shouldn't buy anything Chinese because they rip off products and make junk. All because you like the TUKK better and have experience with knock off products, not the quality manufacturing that WE has put out time and time again. So how am I taking anything out on you? I was just keeping my point relevant to the discussion we are in which is for the RUK and stating my own opinion about it. I also wasn't trying to change your opinion, I was simply pointing out a side you my not have considered.
May 15, 2018
bambam67
334
May 15, 2018
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CrabbyEDCMURICA!!! to the death of everyone. destroying ones country's economy isnt patriotic..its an exercise in lunacy.
May 15, 2018
smallbit
1328
May 15, 2018
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CrabbyEDCYou literally came in here without a point, and clearly didn't read anything I wrote about manufacturing. You still don't have a point and are now flinging "muricas". I am sorry to crap on your Cheerios about not liking outsourcing. Restating what I said with "murica" at the end is just childish and a troll farm tactic... I am not talking about nationalism btw or racism. I am talking about having a fundamental stance against outsourcing since I have lost jobs to it before. Outsourcing manufacturing to the other side of the planet is an odd thing that we do. You can make it into whatever you want, it is quite clear that you and your alt account are being paid to troll this board or maybe you and FF created the shills because I hurt your feels. dawww poor new account troll. You 'two' should probably use your real accounts if you want anyone to think it isn't just you and you slightly later when you are drunk.
"Murica".... how old are you? Do you even macroeconomic? And bambam has trolled every post in this product. Your fire is being stoked by a shill or I am right and both accounts are FF owned. lol
May 15, 2018
CrabbyEDC
59
May 15, 2018
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smallbitCalling my account a troll account makes no sense when I have a picture of myself as opposed to an anime character is hilarious. The other account isn't mine either. Also who would pay people to argue on a discussion board?? I don't work for FF, I am simply debating someone who came in to crap on a product they have no clue about. I do have experience with the product which is why I'm here. I highly dislike the old-school mentality that craps on anything new because of the country of origin. To say that you don't like a product when you have no experience with said product, especially one that is from a manufacturing company that has proven time and again to make good products is foolish to me. Why does it only matter where the knives we use come from, and not where all the products we use everyday originate? Outsourcing is a fact of life now. If you can keep it US then great, but don't crap on a company who can't because of how cost prohibited US manufacturing is. My point from the beginning is that the RUK is a solid product and WE knives makes great knives. I know because I have experience with both.
May 15, 2018
smallbit
1328
May 15, 2018
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CrabbyEDCI don't know that is you. Your picture could be a catfish pic. This is the internet. *I am really Spike Spiegel though...*
And FF would pay for a troll. How did you miss that? They paid for outsourcing, why not pay for a troll or two to defend the product. It is probably a package deal now days. How is that not the most obvious part of bambam's account?
Who said I have no experience with the knife?! Did you even read my posts that you initially raged on at all?! I am currently waiting for the titanium TUKK. This initially was almost a discussion about engineering and design until you trumped it all up.
"Outsourcing is a fact of life now." complacency is a dangerous mentality. "If you can keep it US then great, but don't crap on a company who can't because of how cost prohibited US manufacturing is." They can! That is the thing, these are not computer components, this is not made of a material that China would not have to import anyway, the cost of labor in China is growing along with the yuan gap on the dollar making this a dangerous business model to get into this late in the game. This is a cost saving way to expand their two man shop at the cost of their quality control and US made stamp. It is what it is, don't hate on me for having an educated opinion on it.
May 15, 2018
CrabbyEDC
59
May 15, 2018
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smallbitHow about this, we start over? You don't have any experience with a RUK, so to say it is worse than a TUKK or that there is a risk in buying one, when WE has put out constantly good work, is wrong.
May 15, 2018
smallbit
1328
May 15, 2018
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CrabbyEDCSure. "There is a hex where there should be a tension button and guide lock rail." In my early opinion. And I am not a fan of outsourcing manufacturing on simple manufactured products still and will avoid them when possible. Since there is an American made version of this product, I would probably opt for that. Not taking into mind who made what first or who owns what intellectual property concerning the design. Not even taking that into account, if the US made TUKK and the China made RUK were side by side, I still hate having the hex screw when it doesn't even need to be there and would opt for the TUKK. I really don't understand why they did that.
May 15, 2018
A community member
May 15, 2018
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smallbitbrother, we had our disagreements, but you have the right to dislike a hex screw and i want to back you up in exercising that right. ignore the nonsense -- you have as good a reason as any to prefer a different product!
May 15, 2018
bambam67
334
May 16, 2018
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smallbitso whats the definition of trolling? you call troll but have many more posts in this topic and some are nothing but insults, JUST like TROLLS resort to. i think you are everything you are accusing others of being and you do it because your argument is SOO FawkING WEAK you dont have a damn thing else to add. pathetic really. just adding to the massive 664 comment score.
May 16, 2018
bambam67
334
May 16, 2018
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smallbithmmm so i guess TUKK master wouldn't pay for a troll or HAVE friends that would snipe others ? you are a hypocritical DOUCHEBAG and have such a weak defense of your bigoted opinion you throw out " HE'S a troll for the competition waaahhh" dude you are a sad sad little man with no life... wow.
May 16, 2018
bambam67
334
May 16, 2018
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smallbitsame can be said for your account asshat. another fallback like hes a " racist" .... "oh no he MUST be a troll for the competition because he doesnt agree with my self important know it all BULLSHIT." fawking waahhh on you. what are YOU 17? lame old failed attack. AGAIN
May 16, 2018
smallbit
1328
May 16, 2018
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bambam67OMG the rare and elusive triple reply! And at full rage! :D
I question now whether you are paid, since you appear to be incapable of creating an understandable sentence. When you start a new account and post like mad under 1 product only that makes you a shill, in todays environment most likely paid. IF you are not paid then, I don't know what you are doing. LITERALLY replying to every single thing under a single product... It is the definition of a product shill.
Also, everyone else has read through my comments now except for you and we are all on the same page that my conversation was not racist. But you keep raging kiddo, rage against the... people who don't like outsourcing?
May 16, 2018
bambam67
334
May 16, 2018
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smallbiti question how much trolling you actually enjoy engaging in. going back and looking at the comments from your profile..seems you get off on this shit...is this something you do because mommy never gave you tit growing up? or was daddy gone too much..your comment history is frigging hilarious 2 years and 80 percent is flame war and insults...nuff said. .. attention whore deluxe...wow... and most are pathetic school yard insults. including your last one...OH NO he attacked my grammar and sentence structure...boo friggin hoo..if that is all you are reduced too. you are more of a loser than i gave you credit for earlier....sad...really sad. wipe off your chin and keyboard and leave the forums to the adults. jack off.
May 16, 2018
bambam67
334
May 16, 2018
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smallbit"WE" are all on the same page? ROFL...you really are full of yourself aren't yah Skippy...sorry to disappoint. youre the only one on the same page . your LIKES say something else. or should i say LACK of them...jesus you are a deluded little prick...and boring like a broken record player...find another target for your need for attention... you bore me.
May 16, 2018
smallbit
1328
May 17, 2018
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bambam67Still double posting replies, incredible. Poor bambam got outted as a product shill and is angry now.
My comment history is organic, which you probably don't understand. I really don't care if people disagree with me. Yup I am an internet dweller that voices his honest opinion, GETEM! Better yet, rage on a singular product's audience... wait that doesn't make sense.
CrabbyEDC and videorecipes both upvoted me. Because it was a conversation, not a ragefest. Yes we are all on the same page now, hence you being the only emotional one left. Getting so angry at the phrase "lazy chinese manufacturing" but guess what? THERE IS LAZY MANUFACTURING EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD! I was making a point about outsourcing to 1 country, CALLED CHINA. It's not racist to call me American. And If I did a bad job at work, I would be a... LAZY AMERICAN. See how that works? I am trying to emphasize with caps, thinking it might help to get you to read through what I am typing. Did it work?
And it isn't about grammar. It is about sentence cancer; you have a terminal case of sentence cancer. Your sentences make the reader feel like they have cancer in their eyeholes. My brainspace is saying, "Don't read that spam!". So I scan through your comments. I think I get the jist, QQ.
May 17, 2018
bambam67
334
May 18, 2018
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smallbitthree paragraphs replying/ attacking and ranting at someone whose opinion you dont care about. sure . sentence cancer? "YAWN". same-o same-o, well enjoy jerking off to your own magnificence .because im done filling this sad need you have. your comment history says it all , really sad
May 18, 2018
smallbit
1328
May 18, 2018
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bambam67I will enjoy it. I give you a thumbs up for that.
Your comment history consists of 1 product, so get bent shill.
May 18, 2018
bambam67
334
May 18, 2018
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smallbitFirst. my comment history isn't viewable so that makes you a complete LIAR. second. one can search for my profile name and see just how many products ive posted on...so that make you a lazy MORON, end of story lazy lying attention monger...yup thats about it. .oh yeah and a complete douchebag. enjoy your sad little game, you lost. .."YAWN"
May 18, 2018
smallbit
1328
May 19, 2018
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bambam67If you really want to know I didn't go through your history because like you said you have locked that. Good shill move. I was just strolling through the rest of the comments on this product and was like "this guy is trolling every single discussion". Then I looked through your upvote tally on the comments which was around 30 at that time and determined that your account is relatively new. This sort of spread on one product though was ambitious or just a desperate for attention pleb. But it seems you are just fueling fires from your other comments just like this one. Trying to spark conflict. Then you started getting emotional and your sentences started to break down into gibberish... So, desperate pleb it is? Probably not even getting paid. So, why are you trolling everyone under this product man? Better sentences though in this last comment, please keep that up. I could half understand your troll roll.
Hey it's not a game, it's just a conversation while I watch my Grey's Anatomy. :)
May 19, 2018
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