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McDoogle
186
May 12, 2018
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I looked at the TUKK and don't see what the fuss is about. They only look about as alike as two different brands of frame lock folders. Same materials, different shape. This design honestly looks like an improvement to me.
May 12, 2018
HammerHand
203
May 12, 2018
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McDoogleTrue they are just differences in design like we see in knives all the time. The real issue is more about how the economic culture in our country has developed in a direction where foreign mass markets using cheap labor and operating with almost no environmental restrictions in a completely unregulated manufacturing economy are able to out produce and underprice anything made in America. Our country needs a strong economy in order to function. We are not serving ourselves very well by sending such a huge portion of our manufacturing and purchasing dollars to China. We lose many jobs and a lot of income by doing so. What you are seeing here with TuKK vs Ruk debate is a microcosm of the reality we are experiencing today with a quantifiable and immediately visible result. Brad who is a true American non-corporate entrapenuer demonstrating the essence of living the American dream that is the hallmark of our Great Country, is once again being outproduced and undersold by foriegn produced products. Your dollars spent here will now go to a Chinese corporation instead of an American man who in turn puts them in an American bank and spends them in our American economy. The Salt is Real! What A Shame!
May 12, 2018
rivy
143
May 12, 2018
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McDoogleIt's funny because @tacticalkeychains copied keybar and keysmart himself with his TiKey keyholder thing... what a hypocrite.
May 12, 2018
rivy
143
May 12, 2018
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HammerHandExcept Brad is a hypocrite because he is a copier himself who stole the keybar and keysmart design for his TiKey thing. He's just stirring up drama to try and help his own business. I won't support makers who sling false stories like he is doing.
May 12, 2018
Omniseed
1972
May 13, 2018
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HammerHandMoney goes to two American corporations plus a third with the FedEx shipping though...
May 13, 2018
Evshrug
3770
Community
May 13, 2018
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HammerHandI mean, Massdrop is an American company... But with what you said, and maybe this is unpatriotic of me, I wonder about the human cost of choosing factory workers who work for little pay. I don’t want anyone to live in impoverished conditions, and yet people sometimes are forced to commit their days and efforts into just eeking by.
The debate for and against patents and patent law also is convoluted with good points on both sides and no real winning option.
It takes creativity and sometimes hard work to come up with good ideas, and I feel that should be rewarded, or else why bother? Maybe that’s very Capitalist of me, thinking I need merit-based rewards just to “have enough,” or that Art and luxuries have their place and without them life is dull like a suicide of the soul. Maybe I’m a bit Socialist too, to think that complete business Darwinism stifles creativity and the little guys that can’t compete but could bring innovation, and civilization demands a certain amount of abstract respect for others.
On the other hand, Tactical Keychains is essentially a custom knife operation, either unable or unwilling to take what is essentially another take on a box cutter to mass production and consumer-friendly economies of scale, and unwilling or unable to keep using Massdrop for distribution and marketing. It’s a simple idea, generic in concept though as FFKW said in their sticky post it took a lot of engineering, extra engineering to function the same but work differently. It still feels morally wrong for Jonas to decide Masssdrop still wants a premium compact box cutter and ask FFKW to redesign it in response. It’s much easier to see myself in Brad’s shoes than Jonas’, and if I was in Jonas’ shoes I wouldn’t feel justified.
I do see Tactical Keychains as an aggrieved party here, though I would not like to see the same thing happen to Massdrop like a bigger fish like Amazon copy and compete with Massdrop‘s business model, or for some of the other unique vendors to lose trust in Massdrop. I still remember when Massdrop was banned from Head-Fi because of damaging business practices... but I think Massdrop is at its best when it acts as a platform for discovery or collaborative efforts to provide a distribution and economy of scale benefit to small scale innovators, like Tactical Keychains and Ferrum Forge Knife Works.
Sunday morning philosophy from a third party, out!
May 13, 2018
RayF
22214
May 13, 2018
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EvshrugMany true points. On the other hand, as a consumer, falling in love with, or idolizing any company/corporation/manufacturer is bound to break your heart at some point--they can't be trusted, they are never true, and they always cheat (reminds me of a girl I knew in forth grade). The reality is, most of these entities live by one golden rule: "to thine own self, be true."
May 13, 2018
HammerHand
203
May 13, 2018
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EvshrugNICE! Glad to see somebody actually using their brain And thinking for themselves! Thank You!
May 13, 2018
Evshrug
3770
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May 13, 2018
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HammerHandI often tend to think that much, but I only spell it out like that when I’m tired 😅
@RayF , It certainly is easiest to be true to yourself, probably makes the biggest impact. I know you meant everyone looks out for themselve, but staying true can be a positive too. I have seen several companies become unaligned with the philosophy that I originally liked them for (like Apple), and sometimes they come back (like Apple). You’ll notice I criticized but also called out good things; I feel it’s just as important to celebrate a good direction as much as try to dissuade the bad. Nobody’s perfect, but neither is anybody all bad, though sometimes far enough that I avoid.
May 13, 2018
RayF
22214
May 13, 2018
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EvshrugBeing the cynical guy I am, I prefer to let even-handed guys like yourself paint the rainbows and feed all the unicorns these days--you're much better at it than I am ;- )
May 13, 2018
bambam67
334
May 14, 2018
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HammerHandmaybe if eco NUTS like YOU didnt celebrate when the out of control regulatory and taxing powers push everything out of the country with ludicrous displays of power and taxation. causing those left with the balls to produce here, but end up having to price their products so far above the realm of logic and reality to SURVIVE. WE the PEOPLE wouldn't look overseas for prices we could afford without having to take out a mortgage on our homes. i see a eco banner i punch the one holding it in the mouth. courtesy of the Government. your kind are but one more reason this country is in the condition it is in now. ...but PLEASE keep whining about a problem you helped to create.
May 14, 2018
Omniseed
1972
May 14, 2018
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EvshrugIt's impossible for me to accept the premise that the tulk maker is being wronged by this collaboration, The guy didn't invent the sliding retractable gadget, the disposable hobby knife holder, or the use of copper and brass for EDC gadgets.
He's being an enormous baby and it is completely wrong to validate his temper tantrums.
Imagine if Lumintop went on a week-long diatribe against Massdrop for selling Nextorch flashlights. None of you would treat them with the deference and kid gloves you are using for Brad.
It would rightly be seen as an absurd public mental breakdown.
May 14, 2018
RayF
22214
May 14, 2018
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bambam67Curious to know specifically which regulations you are referring to?
May 14, 2018
bambam67
334
May 14, 2018
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RayFdont have the time nor the bandwidth to list them all..thats the problem isnt it? The Federal Register indicates there are over 430 regulatory departments, agencies, and sub-agencies in the federal government alone..more than 600 new laws just last year..over 20 000 regulations within the Federal government. PICK ONE.
May 14, 2018
RayF
22214
May 14, 2018
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bambam67No, you pick one (I asked first). I ask because the subject often comes up in similar conversations, but as you say there are quite a number of them. I'm wondering if a particular one has had a negative (or positive) effect for your situation (whatever that situation might be)?
May 14, 2018
bambam67
334
May 14, 2018
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RayFnumerous have had negative effects on me and many i know. both on a state and federal level...state and federal OSHA regs being in the majority.or just take into consideration the recent constitutional carry law in Oklahoma..cant have that ..its a loss of over 4 million a year in revenue to the OSBI ( agency overseeing the regulatory aspect. ) and a million or so to the many sheriffs departments that still charge a fee for the fingerprints. any ( read that as most) regs that concentrate on the revenue collecting aspect over actually accomplishing anything...most laws dont give a damn about safety or anything positive for the people...they are just means of control and raising/extorting money.
May 14, 2018
RayF
22214
May 14, 2018
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bambam67Numerous is still kinda vague--I'm looking for a specific regulation that affects you directly--unless, when you say regulation, you mean law?
I'm aware of course that regulations become law, but I wouldn't say laws against bank robbery or kidnapping are regulations. On the other hand, I would say laws that control the kinds of pesticides one can use, are regulations--if you catch my drift?
May 14, 2018
DocZZZ
233
May 20, 2018
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Evshrug"I wonder about the human cost of choosing factory workers who work for little pay. I don’t want anyone to live in impoverished conditions, and yet people sometimes are forced to commit their days and efforts into just eeking by."
this is a huge generalization dude. visiting the country all the time, you see many factory workers making a decent living wage. mind you this is a decent living wage IN CHINA where the cost of living is much, much lower than here in north america. considering the level of fit and finish that WE knife gets out of their factory, im pretty sure they aren't the bottom of the barrel workers but instead are considered higher tiered. also you need to know that the manufacturing industry in china is going through a huge shift. wages in china are increasing so much that lots of the smaller factories are going out of business. companies are choosing to go to countries like bangladesh or vietnam because theyre just as or even cheaper now.
now construction workers in china... well thats where your point starts to be more valid. but we're talking knives here not high rises built in weeks ;)
May 20, 2018
RayF
22214
May 20, 2018
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DocZZZ@Evshrug Actually I thought he was referring to THIS country. Think about it...
May 20, 2018
Evshrug
3770
Community
May 20, 2018
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DocZZZYou’re right, it was a huge generalization based on perhaps old info and more recent info where they tried to reduce the suicide rate by purring nets around the factory roof. I have never had the opportunity to visit China yet, and I have also heard of their proud cultural history, sampled their delicious and sometimes (to my ”western” palette) unusual/exotic cuisine, and pondered on their influence on neighboring countries. I certainly don’t know all.
@RayF was partially right, I don‘t want anybody barely making enough money to cover the costs of going to work; here, China, or anywhere. I’ve lived that life, I was even under-eating, and it just felt like it wasn‘t going anywhere and pointless. Nowadays, with the experience I gained in side activities before doing the half a year with no days off, I have a job with an open schedule and a web commute, and I’m amazed what happens when I can also work on my own life.
It really does seem like WE Knives have the kind of artistry and precision work that can inspire pride of work, make the effort something more than a task to get by. I hope they feel that pride, in addition to the living wage plus a little margin for fun. Same goes for Ferrum Forge and Tactical Keychains, in fact I’d say they have an inspired design creativity and chose to live the entrepreneurial life, which is like a hobby taken seriously. And Massdrop, as a marketing, sales, and distribution platform, helps make opportunities and move product that can really help make collaborators better known, and support clever ideas. I also think Massdrop helps link potential partners such as WE and Ferrum, and provides unique resources (and customer base).
By commissioning this knife, I don’t think Massdrop did anything illegal. However, it’s creation in reaction to Tactical Keychains not being in the store, the “How can we make this and yet make the ‘how’ different enough to not be a clone?” inspiration, and the final salt of naming it so similarly, all contribute as a bridge burning activity. I feel that if people DON’T point it out, then Massdrop might cut out some of its other partners and collaborators in order to make more money with loyal partners or just by itself. It’s not a question of “Is the knife different enough?” It’s the questionable act of competing with former collaborators, and the potential of deciding to do it again in the future to others.
May 20, 2018
McDoogle
186
May 26, 2018
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HammerHandMy US dollars are going to buy a knife made in China that I like the design of instead of a knife made in the US that I do not like the design of.
May 26, 2018
RayF
22214
May 26, 2018
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McDoogleI think the real issue is income inequality--the economic system that built China.
May 26, 2018
Omniseed
1972
May 26, 2018
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EvshrugYou're really stretching to paint TK as a victim here, I don't think you have fully grasped that neither of these items are unique in function or build style, the only things that sets them apart from dozens of other utility knives are the materials and specific design.
Where are you on every other drop in the Blades category, you keep insinuating that this utility knife is a sleazy encroachment into someone's business, why don't you appear in every drop for a framelock to accuse Massdrop and the knife company of stealing from Chris Reeve?
Why don't you accuse Massdrop and Millitt of 'stealing' the Axis lock for the Perpetua? That design was literally created to replace the hole left by Benchmade's decision to stop producing the HK Axis, even the handle design is reminiscent of the HK.
Have you got nothing to say about liner locking knife makers, who are obviously just finding a way to make a liner lock without paying off Michael Walker?
TK has absolutely zero right to pretend he has a monopoly on utility knives or to pretend that a company he doesn't even sell products to is taking something from him simply by offering an item that is the same kind of item as one of his offerings.
It's damn near slander or libel to keep repeating that claim. These utility knives have a lot of overlap in build style because there are only so many ways to build a little utility knife. This one is still uniquely designed and uses different mechanisms than the TUKK.
Why don't you accuse the TUKK maker of stealing the concept of a replaceable blade utility knife from Xacto? It's not reasonable. Even if this were a nearly direct copy, intellectual property rights to the design of manufactured goods do not last forever.
This isn't a novel or a movie, it's a knife. Tools evolve and the TUKK is just a different twig on the same branch as the RUK.
May 26, 2018
RayF
22214
May 26, 2018
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OmniseedHere, here!
May 26, 2018
Evshrug
3770
Community
May 27, 2018
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OmniseedI don’t think I’m going around and harping on every comment about how this seems like a reactionary move, and I certainly don’t feel comfortable policing the huge broad knife community. I even said that I don’t think Massdrop did something illegal here... so please reconsider trying to grill me, because I said my opinion and concerns once or twice in one thread without trying to be really aggressive about it.
I’m also not a grizzled veteran or knife nut to know every instance of one larger company appropriating money making ideas from small start-ups. I have learned a little, and do know that Benchmade had a patent and over 25 years to make money off their axis lock design and become a larger established company... and now that their patent has “timed out,” Benchmade still had some sort of license deal with Spyderco to put a round opening hole into their Griptillian. Other companies like Spyderco also license and credit the designers too, like the Emerson Wave feature and I think they even state it is a Walker Liner Lock in their knives that use it. Is it silly to cal something a Boyd Detent in marketing materials? Maybe, but I can’t fault their commitment.
Anyway, I’m getting back to my holiday weekend, and shopping for a larger complimentary knife. Truth be told, I looked up the Perpetua after you said it, and kind of regret missing out on that knife despite it looking a little plain. I hope you have a fun weekend too, and wouldn’t mind me leaning on your knife experience sometime in the future for suggestions.
May 27, 2018
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