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Will contacted me and asked if I’d like to be part of the launch of the Elex, including posting my impressions of the headphones. I received a pair that Will said would be sonically accurate. Here are the impressions I wrote up. I knew other people who had, or were getting pairs, but we didn't have a chance to compare notes, so these are my thoughts completely independent of anyone else. Will didn't even know what I was going to write until I posted publicly.
FYI, I buy clothes and EDC gear from Massdrop and I bought a pair of K7XX in possibly the very first drop. I met will at the Wikia HQ at a Head-Fi meet just after the Utopia and Elear were released, and met and chatted to Will. Given I'm the kind of person who cannot decide on what color of something I will buy and consequently own a lot of black t-shirts, bags, caps and whatever, you could say the Elex has brought things very much full circle for me!
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My first impression of the Elex was of a “baby” Utopia. I could simply say that they are a less resolving pair of Utopias and be done. Going through my recent playlists, I hear the same things, just the micro, and ultra-micro detail is missing compared to the Utopias. However what’s left is punchy and enjoyable and more open-sounding. Their tonality comes across as a bit light of neutral overall, but a significant amount of this may be more a factor of the precision of their presentation and quality of their bass. For example, if you found the Elear a bit muffled and bass-strong and want more air and punch, then these may be just what you are after. Out of the Hugo 2, every part of the music seems to jump out — vocals emote strongly, guitars pluck and twang and bass notes punch fast with detail. The soundstage seems wider, with sounds on good stereo recordings seeming to come from way outside the headphones. The treble is very present — not overdone, but clean and clear enough even when modern, brighter music comes on. It doesn’t become irritating, at least at my moderate listening levels, as can easily happen with cheaper headphones. The subtle sounds on high-quality recordings don’t have the finesse I get from the Utopias on my system. While I can hear instrument notes decay and echo, those sounds disappear faster and are more “one note” than from the Utopias, which reveal layer upon layer of detail. Despite that, once or twice I ended up looking up from my computer thinking I’d heard a sound from elsewhere in the house when it was a sound coming from within the studio on the recording. The bass, despite being a bit on the light side on some tracks, is where the Elex totally nails things. There is an absolutely delicious precision with excellent amount of detail for headphones in this price range. This allowed me to enjoy listening with the Elex, even though I have better headphones on hand. I tried the Elex out of a variety of gear I have hear and they drove readily easily and consistently out of everything. Switching from, say, a Chord Mojo to my main rig, I could make out an increase in clarity, suggesting to me that at the $799 price Massdrop are asking, they are going to give other headphones in this price range a very serious challenge. The only negatives I can find are that the treble, at least to my ears, can come across as a tiny bit metallic (irony not intended) and the very low bass doesn’t come out with quite the strength that would be ideal (see music impressions). In all other areas, the Elex makes the music I listen to highly enjoyable. I reckon these are excellent “entry level high-end” headphones that can give one a taste of what the hobby is all about, without demanding a huge outlay in equipment.
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Standard bass test tracks:
Angel - Massive Attack
The bass was so punchy that I had to check I hadn’t left the speakers on when listening. It doesn’t have the quantity of deep thump that would make the best match with this kind of track, but then because it is totally the opposite of “boomy” it makes the track quite an experience to listen to anyway. Hey Lion - Sofi Tukker
The (mid-)bass is likewise very punchy from this dance track, and deliciously precise while all the other parts of the track remain distinctly clear. When I Get My Hands on You - The New Basement Tapes
The deep rumble of the low bass notes is distinctly rolled off. On good planars you can really feel those very low notes but not with the Elex. Other tracks:
Rickover’s Dream - Michael Hedges
This is where I compared the detail in note decay. Guitar plucks are beautiful and precise, and this is where you enjoy the emotion of the playing the Elex delivers and are careful NOT to compare to anything better, because this recording has a whole world inside of it. Gentle Storm - Elbow
If there’s a track that was made for the Elex, then this is it. The song itself focusses around the vocals, with a mix of light percussion and piano backing them — no heavy-sounding instruments, Guy Garvey’s vocals reaching right out to you as the other instruments tap and thunk away, each clearly delineated.
LucQc
212
Dec 16, 2017
CurrawongThanks for the review. The list of tracks will be useful, helping me to know what I can expect from those cans.
Moonwolf
56
Dec 17, 2017
CurrawongNice review. As always through and un-biased!
Ayohell
109
Dec 17, 2017
CurrawongCheers for the review man, Just makes me even sadder that I can't get them in the UK :/
jefe32
149
Dec 17, 2017
AyohellLOL somewhere out there a hardcore Focal headphone fan will plan a trip to one of the countries it ships too. At exactly the time it ships...to the destination hotel's front desk.
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 19, 2017
Currawongsnake oil salesmen
ripsterarmy99First of all, "snake oil" implies the product for sale is placebo (does nothing). These headphones are a tweaked Focal Elear. Do you doubt that the changes made (different pads, damping, cables) will affect the frequency response and overall experience with these headphone?
This individual was given an advance unit and offered his opinion. He is not selling the headphones. Getting peoples' impressions of a product is a good marketing strategy - if the product is worthy, of course.
My personal opinion is that while the Focal Elex is a taste of what high-end headphones can offer (without having to spend over a grand), this sale would have been more appealing if Massdrop could have set the lowest price attainable at $699.99... or included Focal's the new case for the current price.
ripsterarmy99Why do several of the mech keyboard community feel the need to pop over to audiophile and crap all over things they don't truly understand? (genuine question, you're not the first nor will you be the last). I don't go over there and ask "WTF?!? would anyone buy knock off TMNT mech keys!"...
LucQc
212
Dec 19, 2017
ripsterarmy99I guess before writing this you at least had the opportunity to do a listening session of Elear with an amp + DAC retailed at least 2 500 $ ?!
jefe32
149
Dec 20, 2017
LucQcLOL that's a goal I want to have, period. To hear any headphone (worth it's salt of course) with a dac/amp setup at that price. Although I would fear how much I would enjoy it. LOL
LucQc
212
Dec 20, 2017
jefe32« Although I would fear how much I would enjoy it. LOL »
Yep. With me it's the same thing for a camera. Put one in my hands and I end up joining a group and have to say:
« Hi, my name is Luc and I am addicted to buying expensive [put your choice here] gear. »
options are a) Photography b) Audio
8;-)
LucQc
212
Dec 20, 2017
ElectronicVicesWhat do you have against those that wish to get more bang for the buck?
Set Sarcasm := OFF
caliphonia
65
Dec 20, 2017
LucQcThat's the problem with computer fans, especially PC fans. It's always about bang for the buck. There are another class of enthusiasts out there who aspire for the best, and price isn't the top priority. This is who these headphone companies are targeting. Most people in this community are looking for better audio quality not bang for the buck. As long as bang for the buck people don't come in and crap over what we like. Some people geek over the Ford Focus RS bang for the buck. Others just go straight to the Tesla or Ferrari. I don't think those buying the Ferrari believe they're buying snake oil.
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 20, 2017
mattrisI'm not saying these particular headphones are snake oil, I'm saying he owns many products that are snake oil and have no scientific basis for their design and price.
LucQc
212
Dec 20, 2017
caliphonia« There are another class of enthusiasts out there who aspire for the best, and price isn't the top priority. »
My Not Deep Enough Cordovan Wallet knows that too well. lol 8;-)
LucQc
212
Dec 20, 2017
ripsterarmy99To say the least, it wasn't easy to guess you meant that...
ripsterarmy99To some, a product's appearance can make it worth a higher cost. Focal's premium headphones are certainly beautiful.
ripsterarmy99I certainly don't believe cables make a difference but that is with my ears and in my system. The human perception of sound is so complex and variable from individual to individual that I don't rule out the possibility that others perceive a difference. For my wallets sake I'm glad I don't find benefit in expensive/exotic cabling nor "hardwood anti-vibration plinths". I have enough stupidly expensive interests to make my wallet cry. I would encourage you to expound more when you post stuff like that or risk coming across as another teenage, PC Master Race screaming, cretin.
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 20, 2017
mattrisSchiit has made incoherent statements on their multibit DACs, they are snake oil.
caliphonia
65
Dec 20, 2017
ripsterarmy99Ok, I also took your original comment as a slight against the headphone and not the reviewer. I also raised an eyebrow when he mentioned cables making a difference in one of his reviews, but given how people claim earpads also changes the sound, I might accept that a different cable might provide a different resistance level. However, I don't believe it enough to pay $400 for any Silver Dragon cables.
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 20, 2017
caliphoniaIf a cable makes a change in sound, either your first one was incorrectly made/broken, or the new one is incorrectly made/broken. It shouldn't change the sound at all.
LucQc
212
Dec 20, 2017
ripsterarmy99Ok.
So every type of shielding are achieving the same results regarding *** noise reduction *** ? Every type of connectors are achieving the same results as well.
A more expensive amp that comes with more expensive types of Input are achieving nothing better than let's say an Objective 2 amp?
Funnily part of the answer is in your comment?! lol 8;-)
You may say the improvement is Over-Rated. Pretending it « shouldn't change the sound at all » is another story.
If you had a basic Professional Training in Electrical or Electronic Engineering you would not write this.
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 20, 2017
LucQcYes. If you wire headphones to have a balanced connection it allows them to get more power. I'm sorry if your peon brain perceives louder volume with better quality, but that is not the case. Yes, all cables sound the same if made correctly.
LucQc
212
Dec 20, 2017
ripsterarmy99Noise equal Louder Volume for you? lol Are you reading what I write? You clearly showed that you know a thing or two regarding shielding. Their purpose. How it can withstand every day use. Etc.
Let's call it a day or more rightly, let's agree to disagree. I'll move on to more useful things...
LucQc
212
Dec 20, 2017
LucQc About Balanced Audio Signals
https://documentation.apple.com/en/soundtrackpro/usermanual/index.html#chapter=C%26section=5%26tasks=true
It's Apple it must be snake oil, right? 8;-)
Luc -Your favorite unskilled peon brain
FuckHead-Fi
424
Dec 20, 2017
ripsterarmy99louder is perceived as better and that's why most albums are mastered to be insanely loud.
FuckHead-Fi
424
Dec 20, 2017
CurrawongHa. [moderated]
FuckHead-Fi
424
Dec 20, 2017
LucQcThere is no reason to ever spend that much on a DAC/amp. Real hi-fi equipment is cheap.
LucQc
212
Dec 20, 2017
FuckHead-FiLet's call it a day or more rightly, let's agree to disagree. I'll move on to more useful things... Luc -Your favorite unskilled peon brain
mBTX
5
Dec 20, 2017
ripsterarmy99You CLEARLY have NO idea what balanced wires do. It is a way of eliminating any other signal that may be picked up on the way. Yes, it has a side benefit of +6db, but that is not its reason for being. Both the positive and negative sides pick up the same interference, just mirrored (inverted). When re combined the inverted signals cancel each other out. (see basic algebra for more on this)
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 21, 2017
mBTXYes, I'm saying for headphones they do absolutely nothing, as most users use them in short runs to their desk. I'm fully aware of the use of XLR for professional audio applications, all of which audiophools don't use.
LucQc
212
Dec 21, 2017
mBTXDo Not Feed The Troll
If he wants to call others names he should do it with POTUS. 8;-)
Luc -Your favorite unskilled peon brain
JTCPingas
90
Dec 21, 2017
ripsterarmy99Audiophools and placebophiles? ;)
LucQc
212
Dec 21, 2017
JTCPingas Do Not Feed The Troll
JTCPingas
90
Dec 21, 2017
LucQcWhy Are You Capitalizing Every First Letter?
LucQc
212
Dec 21, 2017
JTCPingasIs it important?
If you really, really want to complain please do it to this website:
http://acronymsandslang.com/DNFT-meaning.html
Please tell them you're not happy when they write this: « Do Not Feed the Trolls can be abbreviated as DNFT »
FuckHead-Fi[moderated] don't take "loudness war" literally. The TL:DR for you (yeah I've seen many of your posts so I will keep this short and as monosyllabic as possible... ) Compression of the dynamic range of sounds within a recording is the core of it... there is no longer a wide variance between the soft and loud sounds within tracks as was common place for much of the early/"golden" days of recorded media. This gives a perceived louder/more vibrant beat but leads to the finer details taking a frickin beating. I don't know where you got burned kid but you've got to learn to let shit go... playing keyboard avenger on the internet for those that spend some extra cash on the audio rigs isn't going to help whatever is messing with you.
FrostyP
502
Dec 21, 2017
LucQcThe guy's a troll
FuckHead-Fi
424
Dec 21, 2017
ElectronicVicesI don't know what you are talking about. Louder is perceived as better and this is a basic fact. It is important to volume match listening tests because of this.
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 21, 2017
FrostyPHaving a differing opinion doesn't make you a troll. This is the current state of the left, ladies and gentlemen.
FrostyP
502
Dec 21, 2017
ripsterarmy99"This is the current state of the left, ladies and gentlemen"
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha if you two aren't troll then you're just morons
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 21, 2017
FrostyPAnyone who disagrees with me is a moron. Really makes you think...
ripsterarmy99Amazing. Every word that you just said... is wrong.
(to quote a certain character in a certain new movie)
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 21, 2017
mattrisProve it, don't make baseless accusations.
ripsterarmy99First of all, you started out by making a baseless accusation ("snake oil salesmen") then attempted to clarify by saying:
1. Currawong "owns many products that are snake oil and have no scientific basis for their design and price".
For many, "design and price" are the primary reasons in choosing to purchase one product instead of another. Unique, innovative, and high-performance designs usually add to the final cost of a product. And personal preference usually has nothing to do with science.
2. "Schiit has made incoherent statements on their multibit DACs, they are snake oil."
What do particular Schiit products have to do with these headphones or your point?
3. "If a cable makes a change in sound, either your first one was incorrectly made/broken, or the new one is incorrectly made/broken. It shouldn't change the sound at all."
What constitutes "incorrectly made" to you? Compared to free-in-the-box (thin but functional) speaker wire, have you heard the sound improvement a lower-gauge speaker wire makes on the sound produced... or on longer runs? Improved shielding in cables is less obvious, but it can be beneficiary in some situations.
4. "If you wire headphones to have a balanced connection it allows them to get more power. I'm sorry if your peon brain perceives louder volume with better quality, but that is not the case. Yes, all cables sound the same if made correctly."
Various conductive metals and/or resistance ratings can significantly affect the resulting sound. If you can't hear the difference, you might consider upgrading your equipment... or getting your hearing tested. ElectronicVices makes some excellent points in his second post.
5. "I'm saying for headphones they do absolutely nothing, as most users use them in short runs to their desk. I'm fully aware of the use of XLR for professional audio applications, all of which audiophools don't use."
What you hear will be determined by the level of performance of your equipment (headphones, speakers, wires, cables, etc.) and hearing abilities. Balanced (XLR) connections are not exclusive to "professionals" or "short runs" for good reason. An increasing number of headphone/speaker users choose balanced hardware and connections to enjoy the benefits: improved channel separation, resistance to interference, maintenance of signal integrity, increased power, etc.
6. "Having a differing opinion doesn't make you a troll. This is the current state of the left, ladies and gentlemen."
It does when you're making so many "baseless accusations". Your statements are contradictory to science and to people with high-quality gear (and good hearing) that can discern audio attributes/differences/improvements that you apparently cannot.
And stooping as low as to make political statements in an audio discussion forum? Now that's troll-speak if I've ever heard it!
7. "Anyone who disagrees with me is a moron. Really makes you think..."
I think not.
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 22, 2017
mattris1. If it doesn't do anything and design and price are the only determining factors, that is a placebophile at it's best. 2. He owns a product schiit can't even explain with scientific evidence. They literally made it to sell to suckers (placebophiles) to make them think it's some great DAC but in reality it does nothing special but earn them money. 3. If you sincerely believe this, you are wrong. Improved shielding is valid for XLR cables for runs where interference is high and in a profession use case where it actually matters. Please provide results of a double blind volume matched ABX test of speaker wire to prove you can hear a difference. 4. Again, if you believe this the industry welcomes you with open arms. They want your money, placebophile. 5. In a real world use case for a consumer sitting at their desk with an amp/dac combo, XLR vs RCA will not affect sound at all. 6. https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/6nla0a/incoherent_bullschiit_the_spurious_myth_of/ Read that and tell me my statements are contradictory to science. When the left stops being offended at a discussion, I'll stop calling them out on it. Don't like free speech? Move somewhere else. 7, That was the claim made.
LucQc
212
Dec 22, 2017
ripsterarmy99« 3. If you sincerely believe this, you are wrong. Improved shielding is valid for XLR cables for runs where interference is high and in a profession use case where it actually matters. Please provide results of a double blind volume matched ABX test of speaker wire to prove you can hear a difference. 4. Again, if you believe this the industry welcomes you with open arms. They want your money, placebophile. 5. In a real world use case for a consumer sitting at their desk with an amp/dac combo, XLR vs RCA will not affect sound at all. »
Do you there is something outside your self centered virtual world?
You're wrongly assuming so many things, that you end up with fallacious comments.
Not everyone is enjoying music sitting at your darn script kid desk. You can not assume this. Period!
When you wrote « Yes. If you wire headphones to have a balanced connection it allows them to get more power. I'm sorry if your peon brain perceives louder volume with better quality, but that is not the case. » you made a fool of yourself. That could have been easily avoided if you had been through early curriculum professional training.
Please refer to stuff that can be academically verified if you want to have the last words.
If you are really for freedom, not only freedom of speech. Why aren't you allowing others to freely spend money on "placebophile" stuff. Why are you annoying us with your proselytism. Are you trying to impose us your faith?
Also, the only thing you're achieving when you start calling names is looking like POTUS tweeting too early in the morning. Is this what you want? Please, please give us a nice break.
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 22, 2017
LucQc" you made a fool of yourself. That could have been easily avoided if you had been through early curriculum professional training." this doesn't say anything, you're just saying lol u arent an audio engineer u didn't go to school, elaborate on specifics.
"Why aren't you allowing others to freely spend money on "placebophile" stuff. " I am, just don't claim that it makes any sonic difference when it doesn't and scientifically doesn't. Here's your proof:
http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/debunking-the-myth-of-speaker-cable-resonance
LucQc
212
Dec 22, 2017
ripsterarmy99Speaker cables on discussion regarding HeadPhones. I give up.
You're right. I am darn unskilled peon brain. I should throw my diploma in the garbage bin. It has been a true waste of time. My alma mater should be shameful. *sigh*
IgnoreList += "ripsterarmy99"
ripsterarmy991. If it doesn't do anything and design and price are the only determining factors, that is a placebophile at it's best.
Your definition of "doesn't do anything" obviously differs from others'. Just curious... What headphone/speaker gear have you heard? What gear do you currently own?
2. He owns a product schiit can't even explain with scientific evidence. They literally made it to sell to suckers (placebophiles) to make them think it's some great DAC but in reality it does nothing special but earn them money.
Schiit is responsible for their product specifications/claims/advertisements. It's common for companies/businesses to espouse bold, exaggerated, or out-right false claims in an attempt to improve sales. People are responsible for doing their own research, so it's ultimately their choice whether they want to give a company their business.
3. If you sincerely believe this, you are wrong. Improved shielding is valid for XLR cables for runs where interference is high and in a profession use case where it actually matters. Please provide results of a double blind volume matched ABX test of speaker wire to prove you can hear a difference.
So you admit, improved shielding can be useful in some cases. When I'm listening to music, "it actually matters". Obviously, you won't believe any test results unless they agree with your position. So I won't bother.
Again, what constitutes "made correctly" to you?
To me, the differences/benefits of lower-gauge speaker wire (compared to the thin, free-in-the-box cable) are obvious - even on relatively low-end equipment. Have you ever conducted this test, or are you a blind (deaf) denier?
4. Again, if you believe this the industry welcomes you with open arms. They want your money, placebophile.
As a general statement, varying headphone cables and balanced audio connections can affect the resulting sound. Of course, some different cables may sound the same to most people. And the benefits of balanced audio connections may not be able to be heard on all set-ups... and clearly not by all people. While you may not be able to hear the difference with your equipment/ears, you cannot tell others what they can hear.
5. In a real world use case for a consumer sitting at their desk with an amp/dac combo, XLR vs RCA will not affect sound at all.
On relatively low-end gear (headphones, speakers, DACs, amps) on a desk, I concede that most people will not hear a difference, apart from the stronger/louder signal. But as the gear is upgraded (and the volume/distance from the speakers increases), sound quality improvements become more obvious. Of course, ones hearing/listening abilities will often be the bottleneck.
6. Read that and tell me my statements are contradictory to science. When the left stops being offended at a discussion, I'll stop calling them out on it. Don't like free speech? Move somewhere else.
Again with Schiit's Mulitbit issue. I'll read it later. Seems they may have made a false/misleading claim, but not all audio claims are false. Want to discuss political issues in an headphone/audio forum? Move somewhere else.
7. That was the claim made.
That anyone that disagrees with you "is a moron"? I suppose trolls only have big ears - not good ones.
LucQc
212
Dec 22, 2017
mattris« That anyone that disagrees with you "is a moron"? I suppose trolls only have big ears - not good ones. »
You made my day with that one.
* thumb_up *
LOL
FrostyP
502
Dec 22, 2017
ripsterarmy99You really think someone on Reddit knows what they're talking about?
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 22, 2017
FrostyPYou really think someone on Massdrop knows what they're talking about? Same illogical fallacy, I'd like a reasonably intelligent conversation thanks.
FrostyP
502
Dec 22, 2017
ripsterarmy99We get it you frequent reddit and read NWAVGuy's blog once
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 22, 2017
FrostyPI browse /g/, not plebbit.
FrostyP
502
Dec 22, 2017
ripsterarmy99That's actually worse lmao
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 22, 2017
FrostyPYou browse Massdrop, worst of them all. This is an illogical fallacy in which you criticize me regardless. Please stop being so pointlessly stupid.
ripsterarmy991. Baiting for me to list my gear, only going to result in shitting on me for not spending enough money, further proving my point. I have the world's most neutral full size headphone currently in production, powered just fine.
Just fine? Coming from the person who is obsessed with specifics and measurements? How ironic.
If listing your gear will further prove your point, then why would you not do it? I have no plans to shit on you “for not spending enough money”. If you're pleased with your rig, I'm happy for you. I'm just curious if you'd likely be able to hear a difference if you compared cables, balanced connections, different DAC/amps, etc.
And from earlier, could please tell me what you mean by "doesn't do anything"?
2. That's fine, but when you have people like aornic and currawong making youtube videos slobbering over supposed increases in sound quality without measurements, that is where the problem lies.
I would say it's wise to be cautious of reviews that do not state measurements. But measurements do not tell the full story... only attributes like frequency response, THD, and impulse response. Those that review headphone/speaker/DAC/amps describe what they hear with certain music, as well as make comparisons to other similar products. Taking into consideration reviewers' impressions of a headphone is an important step to most people, and their personal opinions can be valuable to those who don't have the time (or means) to audition a product before choosing whether or not to buy it.
Other headphone properties include sound-stage width/height/depth, imaging, detail, speed, tonal accuracy, and the portrayal of space... attributes that computers or testing equipment simply cannot describe.
3. Yes, 50+ foot runs require better shielding due to the degradation of the signal and interference, something that happens in the pro audio field. Noone has a 50 foot room with source gear at one end and speakers in the other. Useless for home use.
For longer runs of speaker wires, the gauge rating is far more important to take into consideration than shielding. Some may have longer speaker wire runs, so your advice is useless.
4. When there are measurements that literally prove it, yes I can. Again, please post a double blind volume matched A/B/X test of you telling a balanced from a singled ended connection. (protip you won't because you can't hear that).
Incorrect. I can hear the difference. No need to trying to “prove it” to you since you won't believe me. Also, just because your gear, hearing, and/or listening discernment is lacking, telling others what they can/cannot hear is beyond ignorant, foolish, and condescending.
5. More bait to justify calling people poorfags indirectly, good hifi gear isn't expensive. NFB11 is the only amp/dac you need at $300 and is at the upper limit of dac/amps that affect sound; tube amps are a whole other subject.
When did I ever say that you have to spend lots to enjoy "good hi-fi"? But as a general rule with all products, greater performance and/or higher production costs usually mean that a higher product cost is justified. Considering their modest price, the NFB11 may be the overall best-value solid-state DAC/amp. But don't kid yourself; it is not “at the upper limit of dac/amps that affect sound”.
6. I won't call people out on being so far left when they stop being professionally offended when someone doesn't agree.
I'm not offended by you (or the "far left"). I'm just telling you that you are simply wrong to deny the benefits of balanced audio and low-gauge speaker wire.
And when I stated earlier that “your statements are contradictory to science”, I misspoke. I don't care what science/measurements say - only what the product sounds like to me, with my gear... and how it makes me feel.
7. Making baseless, non factual, non scientific, non test backed claims; yes you are an idiot if you make these. Measurements exist for a reason, as an objective set of data to prove what something sounds like/does to sound. Also, I can just about guarantee your supposed god ears couldn't touch a well experienced audio engineers. Keep telling yourself you've got gods own ears; it won't get you anywhere without testing.
Most measurements that describe headphone/speaker sound properties are not “objective” since universal standards do not exist. They are only a indication on a case-by-by-case basis, considering the (often questionable or inconsistent) standards of the tester/reviewer/company.
I've heard numerous, mass-produced, music releases from "well experienced audio engineers" that are significantly flawed (unnatural frequency presentation, significantly reduced dynamics, poor editing, etc.). So that statement means absolutely nothing to me... as does “just about” everything else you've typed here.
Correct me if I'm wrong:
You own gear you're happy with. And because you cannot hear the improvements/differences of (balanced) cables, speaker wires, and better (and sometimes more expensive) gear, you believe others are wasting their money but get little (or absolutely no) improvement in sound.
If so, you could have just said as much without coming across as contradictory, bitter, and insulting.
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 23, 2017
mattrisI'm going to spare longer explanations this time, short and sweet.
Objective measurements tell 90% of the headphones experience. Raw FR response is objective, since measuring raw is a universal standard, compensation curves aren't. Curious as to how you forgot this. I don't listen to speakers, only nearfield monitors because they are the most neutral.
You're making a baseless claim. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove your baseless claim. For as long as you hear a difference between balanced and single ended, I run a minute mile. No sense in proving it to you, since you're not going to believe me anyways. Just because your physical ability is lacking, tell others they can't is beyond ignorant, foolish, and condescending.
See how retarded that sounds?
NFB-11 is all you need for solid state, no solid state amps do anything better, they either do something wrong or do something different for the sake of being different (aka not neutral and therefore objectively wrong).
Believe me, Rick Rubin, Tony Maserati, Tchad Blake, Spike Stent, Justin Niebank, Chris Lord-Alge, Andrew Scheps, Serban Ghenea, and Manny Marroquin all have better hearing than you. Your hearing will never eclipse theirs. You will never produce a multi platinum selling record, so why brag about your hearing? Others will always be better.
ripsterarmy99"Short and sweet" this time? Nope.
Raw FR response is objective, since measuring raw is a universal standard
The results of a FR test depend on numerous variables: the specific frequency sweep playback file, DAC/amp used, microphones used, head-rig design/material, pad seal, condition/age of the headphone drivers/pads, etc. And just as two people do not hear exactly the same, not every pair (of a specific headphone model) will produce the exact same FR. Ever wonder why numerous graphs exist for the same headphone? "Curious as to how you forgot this."
I don't listen to speakers, only nearfield monitors because they are the most neutral.
What's your definition of "neutral"? And while you're at it, could you please explain "doesn't do anything (better)" in regards to amps, balanced cables, and low-gauge speaker wire?
You're making a baseless claim. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove your baseless claim. For as long as you hear a difference between balanced and single ended, I run a minute mile.
That's just it. I don't have to prove anything to you. I don't care one iota if you doubt my claims or hearing discernment abilities. Worldwide, millions of people (and hundreds of companies) have similar hearing to me, agree with my "claims", and spend significant time any money producing and enjoying products that you doubt produce any benefit. Until you've compared these connections/cables/wires yourself, you come across as ignorant and bitter. But even if you can't hear a difference after testing, I won't care.
Indeed, your "minute mile" analogy was "retarded" since no one has even been - nor will ever be - recorded running that fast since doing so is physically impossible.
NFB-11 is all you need for solid state, no solid state amps do anything better, they either do something wrong or do something different for the sake of being different (aka not neutral and therefore objectively wrong).
I've never heard it, but I'm aware that the NFB-11 is a excellent unit... one of the best-value, single-ended, desk DAC/amps in the world. But saying that "no solid state amp can do anything better" is simply ridiculous. Other DAC/amps offer additional features like greater power potential, balanced-out/in, analog-input, DSD/higher bit-rate compatibility, additional settings/filters, a display, and portability.
And "not neutral" does not mean "objectively wrong" since some prefer a lean, or bright, or warm, or outright bassy presentation to their music. Personal preferences are subjective. But if one's is looking for a modestly-priced DAC/amp with a realistic/transparent sound, then the NFB-11 would be a fine choice.
Believe me [...] all have better hearing than you. Your hearing will never eclipse theirs. You will never produce a multi platinum selling record, so why brag about your hearing? Others will always be better.
I know that I can hear better than you. And while we will never know if those men have better hearing than me, good on them for selling multi-platinum records. In the meantime, I will enjoy my excellent hearing and share my gear and love of music with my friends and family.
We clearly arrived at different conclusions regarding the benefits of higher-end cables/gear. But that's ok since everyone is entitled to an opinion. Though in the future conversations/debates, it would be wise to refrain from calling people "morons" and "idiots" if you want to be taken seriously.
LucQcHappy to brighten your day! ;-)
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 23, 2017
mattrisPeople want hits on their sites and want to be considered credible, that's why multiple measurements exist. Solderdude uses a flatplate (lol) and has wild deviations of measurements. Jude at head-fi has a fine rig, as does tyll, and as does goldenears. Those are the only valid measurement sources.
Neutral is measures flat. The world's most neutral full size headphones at any price, the Sennheiser HD600, measure the flattest of any headphone currently available. Please see the included link below.
"Doesn't do anything better" means doesn't increase sound quality. Please post results of a double blind A/B/X test with the Sennheiser HD800, headphones that include a manufacturer made SE and XLR cable in the box. They do not do anything other than allow it to get more power using an XLR balanced connection, plain and simple. Again, if you want to make an unwarranted claim, please back it up! People lie on the internet all the time, as it is easy to make a claim without having to prove anything.
I run a minute mile, I don't care one iota if you doubt my claims or running abilities. I don't have to prove anything to you since you'll never believe me, hundreds of my peers all can run minute miles. No one has ever been recorded to hear a sound difference between a singled ended and balanced connection, please stop trying to act like you can. You're using the internet as a proxy of anonymity to make baseless claims.
" like greater power potential, balanced-out/in " NFB-11 powers all headphones except some rare cases which require special amps, like the HE-6. It is then therefore providing an ample amount of power to all headphones currently on the market, thus making it more than adequately powered. "analog-input" You don't buy a combo unit to only use it as a dac, or only using it as an amp. Audio GD has separate products for that, thus making this argument invalid. "DSD/higher bit-rate compatibility" DSD doesn't increase music fidelity, if you think it does however please post double blind A/B/X testing to prove you can tell a difference between FLAC lossless and DSD. "additional settings/filters" Unnecessary and colors the sound, therefor being objectively not neutral, and therefor objectively bad. "a display" These are not a commonly requested feature, and therefore not in demand. They also increase costs when making it without a display could save money and keep the MSRP low to gain more sales. " portability" If you need portability sure, there are good options out there but desktop amplifiers/dacs provide the best sound quality.
"And "not neutral" does not mean "objectively wrong"". Yes it does. The definition of high fidelity is as follows: "the reproduction of an effect (such as sound or an image) that is very faithful to the original." Overly bassy and overly bright headphones bring in too much bass or a fake amount of detail with treble, none of which is present during the original recording. That makes them objectively wrong. Not all of us are melanin enriched like you however, Jaquan. Not everyone likes bassy headphones.
"I know that I can hear better than you. And while we will never know if those men have better hearing than me". First of all what quantifies better hearing, since I can still hear up to 20khz perfectly fine (and above that up to about 25khz), thus making my hearing perfect. Secondly, those men do have better hearing than you, it's the reason why you're not a top name audio engineer. They objectively have better hearing than you will ever have.
Science is not an opinion. There are ways to tell OBJECTIVELY what things do to the sound and what is out of the realm of human perception. Balanced cables, DSD, and any other audiophool jargan is purely to make money, which by the way is the main goal of any business, regardless how many lies they feed you to make you their friend.
LucQc
212
Dec 23, 2017
mattrisAlmost as enjoyable than running this little line of code: IgnoreList += "ripsterarmy99"
Since the troll is on IgnoreList I got rid of discussing politics, religion, running etc. in headphone's threads.
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 23, 2017
LucQcThe fact that you can't have a civilized discussion without letting your emotions get in the way proves just how childish you are. I hope you may soon find a world that puts emotions above facts.
projectssj
40
Dec 23, 2017
CurrawongMichael Hedges is one of my go-to reference musicians when playing music!
ripsterarmy99Since you won't disclose your set-up, I have to assume that you own a Sennheiser HD600 and NFB-11... an excellent rig, especially for its cost. But it's far from end-game if you're truly serious about enjoying music on headphones. (Sennheiser's new HD660S bests the HD600 in sound realism. And the NFB-28.38 DAC/amp would be an excellent choice to run it balanced.)
The "only valid measurement sources" or just the most famous ones? What about diyaudioheaven? But again, graphs/measurements offer little more than frequency and impulse response. There's so much else that matters when recreating (and enjoying) sound/music on headphones.
Yes, neutral audio means "flat across the audible spectrum". But in practice, neutral equipment its only useful in recording, DACs, and amps. Literal "flat" headphones (or speakers) sound fatiguing, with far too much treble.
"nearfield monitors" ... "are the most neutral"
As a percentage of all models, yes, nearfield monitors are the most neutral. But that blanket statement is not accurate since some bookshelf or tower speakers are more neutral than some nearfield monitors. For speakers, calibration hardware/software can be used to correct attributes that detract from attaining a desired neutral (or natural) sound. (Most home theater receivers include microphone calibration that accomplishes this excellently. And a few new headphones have a similar process to correct for human hearing and varying ear shapes.)
Please define "increase sound quality". I ask since you beleive that more powerful amps, balanced cables, low-gauge speaker wire, different conductive material cables, hi-resolution files, DACs better than the one in the NFB-11, and digital filters "don't do anything better".
As a general rule, amplifiers that can deliver more peak power will increase overall sound quality in headphones. Improvements include greater dynamics and clarity - in addition to higher potential volume, of course.
I have nothing to prove to you. But even if I wanted to, I cannot back-up my claim because you cannot hear how I hear. And posting the results of a double-blind A/B/X test will not satisfy you since you won't believe me if the results don't reach the conclusion you were expecting. (And unfortunately, you cannot conduct the test with me.)
NFB-11 is all you need for solid state, no solid state amps do anything better.
Sorry, your defense for it having no analog-input made no sense at all. It's a glaring omission. And without a balanced-out, you're missing out on driving your HD600s to their maximum potential. "Additional settings/filters" in DACs allow for more adjustments to the signal - to make the sound more natural/real - during its conversion from digital to analog... before being sent to the amplifier. Your NFB-11 just has one (fixed) filter and no settings to tweak the sound to your desire. True, without filters or other options, a display is not necessary.
You sound like you're defending Audio-DG's decisions to omit features on the NFB-11 in an attempt to validate your decision in choice of DAC/amp. Would you have supported them if they had included a 16-bit/44.1 kHz chip? (I'm guessing you'll claim that 16/44.1 files are the limit of human hearing discernment. Doing so could have saved money to "keep the MSRP low to gain more sales", right?)
Desktop amplifiers/dacs provide the best sound quality.
In general, yes. But higher-quality portable DAC/amps are relatively new to the hi-fi market. My iFi micro iDSD Black Label would give your NFB-11 a run for its money in clarity/resolution... but has greater power (volume) potential, better dynamics, an analog-input, coaxial digital out, DSD/higher bit-rate compatibility, filters, bass-boost, and a 3D switch that livens dull recordings and makes single-point live recordings sound unbelievably impressive.
Some (if not most) people like to listen on gear that is not neutral. Their preferences do not make them "objectively wrong". Whether they are deliberate in their choice or just ignorant, some people are simply not bothered that the playback is not faithful to the recording/performance. That's their choice.
Your ability to hear high frequencies does not necessarily mean your hearing discernment (of intricate details within music) is superior. And I find it rich that you claim your hearing is "perfect" after denying the benefits of low-gauge speaker wire/balanced cables/high-end gear, etc.
Secondly, those men do have better hearing than you, it's the reason why you're not a top name audio engineer. They objectively have better hearing than you will ever have.
I'm not a "top name audio engineer" because I am not an audio engineer at all. That has nothing to do with my hearing capabilities. With that logic, why don't you have a Oylmpic gold medal in the 1500m?
Objective measurements tell 90% of the headphones experience.
Incorrect. Tell me what computer/test can objectively measure a headphone's sound-stage width/height/depth, imaging, detail, speed/smoothness, tonal accuracy, and portrayal of air/space. "Pro-tip": None can. Hence, the welcome reports from subjective reviews.
Music/gear enjoyment is not a "science". Sound theorems and "objective" tests do not have ANY impact on peoples' preferences, hearing, and listening abilities.
Regarding your hi-fi beliefs and gear, it sounds like you will refuse to step out of your comfort zone until you choose to believe the results of select double-blind A/B/X listening tests. Until you've listened to better gear yourself to confirm what you can and cannot hear (rather than just reading and trusting books and internet posts/articles), you'll only come across as ignorant to those can hear the benefits that superior gear brings to the table.
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 24, 2017
mattrisHD660S is not as neutral as the HD600, which is superior. Tonality comes first, you can have all the soundstage in the world but if you've got T1 or HD800 treble, the headphone is inherently flawed.
Diyaudioheaven is solderdude, as i mentioned. He is far from credible as shown in his DT770 measurements. Flatplate measurements are not valid.
The DAC present in the NFB-11 is the most neutral DAC on the market, digital filters will only chagne its neutrality. Yes, a 16/441 dac would have been perfectly fine, but because of turbo autists like you that claim they can hear the difference between higher bit depth/sample rate, they put in these features to market to others of your kind. Again, if you'd like to prove that you can hear the differences, post double blind A/B/X tests! Even if I can't ever hear that a valid test is a valid test (nice strawman by the way, I appreciate the dancing around facts). Here's a credible reviewer that reviewed the Black Label, which he claims isn't as good sounding as the NFB-11. Funny how that works. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAYaM3uKBD8 . More power, doesn't matter since the NFB-11 powers all headphones to sufficient levels (ifi is only .5 VRMS stronger btw, not a significant increase). Better dynamics, please elaborate on specifics backed by testing. Making an objective claim means in a study people will find the ifi has better dynamics in a majority. I think it has better dynamics is a more correct statement. Analog in and coax out, both of which are features not suited for a combo unit, statement disregarded. DSD/Higher bitrate & filters, all of which negatively affect sound quality. See here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLEhfieoMq8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF24aek19t8
for further evidence. (Which was done using science, not baseless claims like you). Seems like audiophools such as yourself only discern differences 62% of the time, well within foobars margin of error, and well within anyone with a brain. To demonstrate absolute concise listening ability, you need a grade of about 85% or up. I encourage you to test yourself.
3D switch and bass boost: Oh boy, features that falsely enhance detail and give you things the recording engineer will never ever hear. Again, reduces fidelity which means objectively bad. Not to mention, Tyrell, not all of us like bass.
Ignorance is bliss, you literally said it. People are ignorant to the fact that they are enjoying music that is inaccurate for the sake of enjoyment.
Your unsubstantiated claims on bit depth, sample frequency and encoding types are all unproved, except by you in your opinion of course; thus meaning your hearing discernment (of intricate details within music) is not superior. Gear is irrelevant, always has and always will be. Pick your favourite audio engineer, give him some DT770s and a Fiio E10k and he will mop the floor with whatever snake oil setup you can put together to master with. I know you want to falsely conflate price with performance to belittle others who haven't spent as much money as you, like all other audiophools, but that is not the case as I previously stated. Ear training is where all the performance is.
I'm not an "olympic runner" because I am not an olympic runner at all. That has nothing to do with my running capabilities.
Problem is, you're claiming your hearing capabilities surpass the most respected ears in the world. Unsubstantiated claims over the internet cannot be taken seriously unless there is evidence to back them up. You're only lying to yourself at this point, and unfortunately it seems that lie has been told often enough to be believed as the truth. Just as I make unsubstantiated claims, you do too. Noone wants to prove anything, so we are both wrong until proven otherwise.
"Objective measurements tell 90% of the headphones experience. " Frequency response is 90% of the headphones experience, so yes I was precisely correct. By the way " tonal accuracy, and portrayal of air/space" are both different ways of saying frequency response, so I appreciate your agreement. I agree that the rest of those are subjective, however these reviews are unnecessary considering how little they add to the listening experience.
"Music/gear enjoyment is not a science. Theorems and "objective" tests do not have ANY impact on peoples' preferences, hearing, and listening abilities."
See the problem is that's where your wrong. The human brain is a feeble organ, rather subject to plenty of mental phenomenon. Seeing two products side by side and seeing one is more expensive than the other, the mind instantly thinks the more expensive one is higher quality. That's just how the mind works. It is also suspect to the placebo effect (one you are plagued by unfortunately), post-purchase rationalization, bias, as well as many others. The reason headphones and amplifiers are measured is because there are objective ways to tell how they sound. You can objectively test someones hearing and listening abilities, so that statement is debunked. Preferences are fickle, but ultimately sticking to the very definition of the foundation of this hobby, high fidelity, means objectively some preferences are wrong. You may enjoy bass, Tayontay, however it is objectively wrong.
"I have nothing to prove to you. Until you've tested better gear (than you have now) to confirm what you can and cannot hear (rather than just reading and believing books and internet posts/articles), you'll just come across as ignorant to those can hear the benefits that superior gear brings to the table."
Another strawman and conflation of price and quality, what a shame. I will continue to "believe" objective, science backed papers and tests because unfortunately that's the real world. Science doesn't care about your feelings. Another woefully ignorant statement disregarded. I feel sorry for you, focusing so much on gear you will never learn to mix and analyze music at a peak audio engineers level. I for one have already done so.


ripsterarmy99I've come across those videos, which are based in the theory/science -- not real-world music comparison tests with regular people, in their own homes, listening to their own music choices on quality gear.
Tell me, how is the HD600 superior to the HD660S? Reviews (almost) unanimously report that the 660S has better detail retrieval, a wider sound-stage, and better portrayal of space. Also, its frequency response graphs show that its just as "neutral" but with better channel matching than the HD600.
While the reviewer found that the NFB-11 is "faster", he said the Black Label can "drive most headphones better". It's a wash.
As a general rule, an amplifier with more available power will results in better sound. You can choose to believe me or not. I cannot listen for you, nor will I research for you. Audio is personal. So the impetus is on you to prove/determine what sounds good/better and makes you happy. Outright denying claims (that you previously didn't believe) will have you stuck in a rut forever.
Analog in & coax out are features "not suited for a combo unit" like the NFB-11? What a silly argument! Those would be useful features for many, so why would they not be desired? They wouldn't significantly add to the overall cost/price if they were included. Advantage: Black Label.
DSD/Higher bitrate & filters, all of which negatively affect sound quality.
The BL's 3D and bass-boost switches make the sound (subjectively) better in some cases. They both utilize analog circuits, so the music is not re-sampled. Depending on the music, its digital filter switch can make a (subjective) improvement. DSD/Higher bitrates negatively affect sound quality? Come again?
Ignorance is bliss, you literally said it. People are ignorant to the fact that they are enjoying music that is inaccurate for the sake of enjoyment.
Yes!
Indeed, DT770s and a Fiio E10k would be an excellent combo for the money. But why do you keep comparing my hearing to that of an "audio engineer"? It comes off as incredibly aggressive and demeaning... and unbecoming of a professional audio engineer... and civil human being. Once again, you have no clue the caliber of my hearing/listening discernment abilities, so this line of thinking/assuming/question will go nowhere.
No, we are not "both wrong until proven otherwise". We just hear differently and have different opinions. Your hearing discernment is a mystery to me... and mine to you.
Regarding my statement that "lower-gauge speaker wire sounds different (better) than really thin (usually black and red) speaker wire", please don't take my word for it. Compare them yourself. Short runs will do.
Frequency response is 90% of the headphones experience, so yes I was precisely correct. By the way " tonal accuracy, and portrayal of air/space" are both different ways of saying frequency response, so I appreciate your agreement. I agree that the rest of those are subjective, however these reviews are unnecessary considering how little they add to the listening experience.
Tonal accuracy and portrayal of air/space are not "frequency response". Ever wondered why no headphone cannot recreate ultimate realism even if its perfectly "neutral"? In regards to perceived air/space, the implementation and quality of the drivers (and closed-back vs. open-back designs) will yield a wide range of results. Frequency response is only part of the full story. Bring on the subjective reviews!
I know you want to falsely conflate price with performance to belittle others who haven't spent as much money as you, like all other audiophools, but that is not the case as I previously stated. Ear training is where all the performance is.
I never "belittle others" because of how much they've spent on their audio system. But as general rule, better gear (sound, design uniqueness, more-durable/expensive materials used, warranty, etc.) will cost more. But more expensive gear is not always better. Let that one sink in.
My arguments never centered around price. Music enjoyment/gear is about real-world performance, feelings, and fun - not "science-backed papers and tests". Fun is subjective. People have preferences. You're going to call people "objectively wrong" for liking extra bass? You're no fun at all.
Gear is irrelevant, always has and always will be.
And with that ridiculous statement, you lost all credibility. My willingness to converse with you has come to an end. We are running around the proverbial track, going nowhere, and I have run my last lap. Have fun with your minute miles.
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 24, 2017
mattris"They are based in the theory/science -- not real-world tests with people in their own homes, listening to their own music choices on quality gear."
If that were the case, there would be extensive, uncontrolled bias. If you cared to watch the video, lachlan spoke about a paper in which LABORATORY, EXPERIMENTAL LISTENING CONDITIONS (which input no bias) audiophools such as yourself gave a correct answer 62% of the time. That is backed by ACTUAL TESTING. Another statement debunked.
Frequency response is 90% of the headphone, and the 600 has a flatter frequency response and thus is more neutral. Since you said hearing is subjective, that means you can't call my opinion wrong. In my opinion the 600 outperforms the 660S in detail retrieval, spaciousness, and soundstage. Also, here's a graph of the 600 from a reputable measurement database. If you could, please provide a full size headphone currently in production that measures more neutral. https://imgur.com/DNn84hV
" As a general rule, more available power from an amplifier results in better sound from the speakers/headphones. You can choose to believe me or not. I can't listen to confirm for you... nor am I going to research this for you."
So you literally just made a baseless claim and are copping out because you have no proof. Another useless statement debunked.
"Analog in and coax out are features "not suited for a combo unit"? What a silly argument! If one has the use for said feature, when would they be desired?"
Most people plug in a USB cable to a combo unit and run. Most people aren't looking to use coax or another dac/amp with a combo unit. I have use for AES, both not present on either unit. Why don't they add it if I have a use? Because I'm a small minority, like you, and the costs out weight the benefits.
"Tonal accuracy and portrayal of air/space are not "frequency response"."
Tonal accuracy is literally another way of sayin FR. Air/space is a specific band in the FR, as listed here: https://imgur.com/QWSfafM Another argument debunked.
"I never wanted to "belittle others". But as general rule, better gear cost more money. But more expensive gear is not always better."
Yes you did, lying on the internet to seem innocent isn't helping you. I can just about guarantee if you were given a Chord Dave and Utopia you would say they sound miles better than your setup. Anything more expensive than your setup would sound better according to you.
"You're going to call people "objectively wrong" for liking a little extra bass? You're no fun at all."
Yes De'Marcus, not all of us folk are melanin enriched.
"Gear is irrelevant, always has and always will be. And with that statement, you lost all credibility."
Well as much as you don't want to hear this, it's true. Buying more expensive things doesn't just magically make your hearing better and make you more credible, as you claim. It's become quite clear you have some bias against me, considering you're saying I lost all credibility. I thank you for giving me credibility, because you had none to begin with. Anyways, here a two time grammy award winning musician saying gear doesn't matter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8v1vvbiVxc&t=185
Another audiophool defeated.
ripsterarmy99If the NFB-11 is as good as it gets why does Audio-gd sell other products of a higher price that perform the same function? OH wait different people want different things! You've got the confident part of an argument down but you're still lacking a bit in the logic portion... this will be my last post in this line of the conversation. I will leave it with the best general advice I can... trust your own ears, spend first on headphones then on amps & dacs... try a cable change if you don't like your current cable (functionally) and same with ear pads... don't go nuts on either. But above all else.. don't listen to shitty music! ;)
FrostyP
502
Dec 26, 2017
ripsterarmy99"Yes De'Marcus, not all of us folk are melanin enriched."
Of course you're racist lmao
LucQc
212
Dec 26, 2017
FrostyP« Of course you're racist lmao » Is racism officially endorsed by Massdrop? 8;-)
search
LucQc
212
Dec 26, 2017
ElectronicVices« If the NFB-11 is as good as it gets why does Audio-gd sell other products of a higher price that perform the same function? »
Snake oil marketing BS?
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 27, 2017
LucQcYes. The point of a company is to make money, first and foremost, no matter what they tell you. If some sucker is willing to buy something that's $2000, why not make something for 300 bucks and sell it for that?
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 27, 2017
FrostyPAnime profile picture - comment disregarded.
dasman
387
Dec 28, 2017
ripsterarmy99" here a two time grammy award winning musician saying gear doesn't matter. "
So far, I've been reading this on the sidelines. But your quote from Tom Morello is taken completely out of context. He is saying gear doesn't matter in the context of creating music... he is not talking about reproducing music.
Now... can everyone just agree to disagree and be done with it?
PirateIce
232
Dec 28, 2017
dasmanYes, I will, not agree?
PirateIce
232
Dec 28, 2017
dasmanlol
FrostyP
502
Dec 28, 2017
dasmanTom Morello's music is also poorly mastered trash :v
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 28, 2017
dasmanIt's the same thing. Gear never matters. A great ear is a great ear and makes do with whatever equipment possible.
dasman
387
Dec 28, 2017
ripsterarmy99to simplify... a person can make great music with 5 gallon buckets or glasses filled with water. Gear doesn't matter in creating that music.
However, a handheld transistor AM radio (gear) cannot faithfully reproduce that music, no matter how great someone's ear is.
Realize I am not saying a person can't enjoy the music over the AM radio, only that the radio (gear) is not capable of faithfully reproducing it.
PirateIce
232
Dec 28, 2017
ripsterarmy99You and das are doing an amazing job of talking about things that don't relate to listening to music on headphones in this thread, maybe das is trying to make the same point but getting sucked into it, do you need a reminder this does not involve any monitors or mastering gear? You seem to infer headphone comparison is entirely objective, it is not, in my opinion.
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 28, 2017
dasmanYou do not need hundreds of thousands of dollars in equipment to reproduce music to an objectively transparent level. Basic cheap consumer products can do this easily. AM Radio is not used for music, of course you can use outlier examples of old, outdated technology.
dasman
387
Dec 28, 2017
ripsterarmy99I am merely highlighting that gear does in fact matter when it comes to reproducing music. I am not making any comments related to the cost of said gear. Gear can be expensive, gear can be inexpensive... but gear does matter.
PirateIce
232
Dec 28, 2017
ripsterarmy99I'm gonna start yelling this at my speakers when they distort "Hey! Consumer Product! Dont you know you are easily objectively transparent!"
ripsterarmy99Sorry, everyone. But I just couldn't resist the troll that is ripsterarmy99. Thank you all for keeping him/her company while I was away. Your excellent responses saved me some time. (But only a little, as you can see.)
First of all, everyone's hearing is different. Nobody is "like" me, so I can't speak for those who took part in tests with "laboratory experimental listening conditions". I remember Lachlan posting a video of him conducting an A/B/X listening test using open-back headphones in a loud environment. So... yeah. I'm not sure I can totally trust his opinions/reports.
Frequency response is 90% of the headphone, and the 600 has a flatter frequency response and thus is more neutral. Since you said hearing is subjective, that means you can't call my opinion wrong. In my opinion the 600 outperforms the 660S in detail retrieval, spaciousness, and soundstage.
You may prefer the 600, but a vast majority of people will agree that it's inferior to the 660S in detail retrieval and soundstage width. And as for neutrality, what about the Focal Clear?
https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD600.pdf https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/FocalClearsnA1BRQE000007.pdf
I have the world's most neutral full size headphone currently in production, powered just fine.
Until you've heard your HD600 with a good tube amp and/or with a balanced connection, you will only be getting "just fine" sound (that is, somewhat boring/dry/lacking dynamics) ... and you'll continue to sound ignorant.
I challege you to disprove my "baseless claim" that "more available power from an amplifier results in better sound". (By "better" I mean more dynamic, with less distortion at higher volume.)
The NFB-11 is a good mid-grade DAC/amp. But it's single-ended headphone jack as the ONLY output (and only digital inputs) is limiting, to say the least. The extra cost of a digital out & analog in are worth it to me because I use those features included in my iFi micro iDSD Black Label, which will be my primary DAC/amp for years to come.
Tonal accuracy is literally another way of sayin FR
There is more to tone/timbre than just the frequency response that microphones can pick up from a frequency sweep. Human ears can distinguish what sounds seem more accurate/real.
Air/space is a specific band in the FR.
In the context of that graph, "air" is just a word used to describe the 12 kHz -on. If it was so easy to add a sense of air/space to a headphone, why don't manufacturers just add emphasis in that frequency band? The reasons is because that band does not add "air/space" to the sound. The sound that headphone produces is far more complicated than frequency response, impulse response, and THD that a computer test can measure. As I mentioned previously, attributes like sound-stage width/height/depth, imaging, detail, and speed in the various audible ranges can only be (subjectively) described by humans. So your attempts to simplify this matter only makes you appear ignorant and condescending.
Anything more expensive than your setup would sound better according to you.
Do you really think I'm infatuated with the cost of things? I could lists dozens of combinations of headphones/DAC/amps that cost more than my current setup... and sound worse (less natural).
You do not need hundreds of thousands of dollars in equipment to reproduce music to an objectively transparent level. Basic cheap consumer products can do this easily. AM Radio is not used for music, of course you can use outlier examples of old, outdated technology.
Some would say that your HD600s are "old, outdated technology". No audio gear can "reproduce music to an objectively transparent level"... just various subjective levels.
Take a look at the number of people here who dispute your claims. Shall we talk about "credibility"?
It will come as no surprise, but my definition of "audiophool" differs from yours.
LucQc
212
Dec 29, 2017
FrostyPThanks! I have been using Morello's music when doing listening sessions with expensive gear at local store. Staff members were always smiling. After improving my knowledge from this entertaining thread, I thought it was because they were selling me their snake oil stuff. Now I am relieved to find out it was because of my play list.
8;-P
Set SARCASM := OFF
LucQc
212
Dec 29, 2017
mattris« No audio gear can reproduce real sounds "reproduce music to an objectively transparent level"... just various subjective levels. »
It reminds me of a funny story a guy writing a column told us. At an Audio Show a guy was complaining that a gear from another stand was sounding like shit. The guy was a bit embarrassed when he was told that the "shity" sound was coming from musical instruments of musicians playing live unplugged.
Some companies trying to sell their snake oil expensive gear are really nasty! Why do they need to bring musicians to remind us how music should be rendered with gear?
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 29, 2017
mattris "I challenge you to disprove my "baseless claim" that "more available power from an amplifier results in better sound". (By "better" I mean more dynamic, with less distortion at higher volume.)"


Watch this, and you will truly realize how retarded you are. You aren't worth my time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KayBys8gaJY
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 29, 2017
mattrisAlso, you claim that balanced connections do make a difference, but don't use one. Really makes you think. I am using my HD600s in dual 3 pin XLR balanced, zero sound difference. I don't own an NFB-11, it's just the best objectively neutral singled ended DAC/AMP.
ripsterarmy99All that reasoning from me, and your response is to link a (non-audio-related) video (that I am not going to watch) and say that you can't hear an improvement from your (16-year old) headphones with a balanced connection? Not very convincing.
If your HD600s sound no better being run balanced, it's possible your amp is doing something "objectively wrong". Or perhaps, the Sennheiser veil strikes again, hindering your (16-bit/44.1 kHz max-capable) ears from discerning an improvement.
My general statement - that more power yields better sound - is correct (in theory and in practice). I think you know this - but clearly enjoy being contradictory.
While the NFB-11 is (subjectively) not "the best objectively neutral singled ended DAC/amp", I would agree that it's the "best-value DAC/amp to power more-sensitive headphones".
I currently don't use a balanced connection because my current headphones cannot be run balanced. Rest assured, my next headphone and DAC/amp purchases will be brand-new models and balanced-capable.
From earlier, you stated, all cables sound the same if made correctly. You also said the same about speaker wire. Countless people would disagree. Does that not mean anything to you? Could it be that you can't hear a difference - but others can?
And finally... more name-calling. You exhibit so much immaturity - in regards to civil discussion... and audio knowledge. In my (subjective) opinion, you aren't worth anyone's time.
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 29, 2017
mattrisHere's what the video says since you're clearly too immature to watch it. If I say "There is a pink unicorn behind you!" and then you look and I say "Oh dear, just as you have gone and looked, it has disappeared." You, being the obvious skeptic that you are would say "Pink unicorns don't exist! What a preposterous thing to say!" I would then be in the WRONG by saying "It is up to you to prove me wrong. If you can't prove that it doesn't exist, it must!" This is called shifting the burden of proof. It is up to me to prove my baseless claim. Similarly, you claim that more power makes headphones sound better, as well as balanced connections make headphones better. The burden of proof is NOT on me when I say "That is incorrect. Please provide valid scientific evidence that proves as such." The burden of proof is on YOU when making a baseless claim. You're trying to hide behind a strawman to validate your points, thus proving who the truly immature person is.
ripsterarmy99In summary, we are both just people claiming things and stating our opinions. We can choose to believe each other (or not). But I only trust my ears - not theorems or Youtube videos.
I know that my general statement that "more power yields better quality" is correct (in theory and in practice) - and suspect you do, as well. So pardon me if I don't feel the need to "prove" this (or anything) to you. What am I suppose to do, post a links to a books or internet articles? (Yours have not been convincing in the slightest.)
What I will do is continue to enjoy the benefits of powerful amps... and the other things I previously "claimed". I'll leave you to enjoy the world's most neutral full size headphone currently in production, powered just fine.
LucQc
212
Dec 29, 2017
mattris« What I will do is continue to enjoy the benefits of powerful amps... and the other things I previously "claimed". I'll leave you to enjoy the world's most neutral full size headphone currently in production, powered just fine. »
You also need to state the obvious truth and allow anybody to do it as well. You and I are idiots because we're buying too expensive gear when it has been scientifically proven that it is not required. The diploma I received from my alma mater does not matter. Actually it should be thrown in the garbage bin. Period! No need to add anything else.
All this will help everyone to make the decision to buy or not the Focal Elex while providing one of the best customer experience!
FYI , I did what I should have done before e.g. make a fire with all my books on Electronics and Electrical Engineering that liers told me to buy.
8;-)
ripsterarmy99
153
Dec 30, 2017
mattrisYes, please post links to books or articles with credible scientists with valid scientific tests, yes. How you don't understand that is beyond me.
inmytaxi
175
Dec 30, 2017
caliphoniaPeople who buy Ferrari's are idiots. The ugliest car per dollar ever.
inmytaxi
175
Dec 30, 2017
mattrisIt isn't necessary to have accurate sound reproduction in order to understand the concepts a musician is trying to convey. The point of the music can easily be understood with a $3 set of headphones and a $5 mp3 player.
rastus
1391
Dec 30, 2017
jefe32Add “Please Hold For Guest” after your name, and hotels will look for an upcoming reservation. I ship heavy stuff I don’t want to schlep or stuff I have ordered but don’t want to chance missing before a trip, but need there. Still have to time it close, so MD would have to give a decent “heads up” on the shipping.
inmytaxiIndeed. Why would anyone that enjoys music spend $700 on a great-sounding media player, DAC, amplifier, or pair of speakers/headphones? It's not like those pieces of gear last for years (or decades) and let you feel closer to the musical performance.
And who has patience to wait for nice things to arrive? To Walgreens, at once!
Asherjoh
12
Dec 31, 2017
mattrisSome people appreciate refined sound and are willing to pay for it. I listen to music at my work 8 hours a day. My equipment is well used. But I will admit many people can't afford it.
ld100
181
Dec 31, 2017
AsherjohIt is not about affording it. This model with different pads and cord selection can be purchased for less and without a long wait... For some it is worth it and for others like me I think it is overpriced for what it is...
s2kPanda
37
Dec 31, 2017
ld100Tell me where I can find it for less please? Last I check this model is only on Massdrop, in this specific colorway with these specific cords with different colored pads. If you're talking about buying a used Elear for 600 + 150-200 for the pads and not receiving the braided cords... you've already gone over the budget.
LucQc
212
Dec 31, 2017
s2kPandaAnd you got to find a way to buy the pads .
Someone can tell me where I can buy the pads? Usually for me my search will bring something like that:
« Focal UTOPIA Soft Cushion Ear Pads (Pair) Be the first to review this item Price: $248.00 & FREE Shipping Only 5 left in stock - order soon.This item does not ship to Canada. Please check other sellers who may ship internationally. »
s2kPanda
37
Dec 31, 2017
LucQcRight now clear pads don't exist I believe, at least I haven't seen any. Only the elear pads for 150 and the utopias for 250 on moon-audio.
LucQc
212
Dec 31, 2017
s2kPandaSo ordering at moon-audio for me means, $288.95 to this you must add 15% of taxes and have to pray I will not be charged additional Broker Fees. I'll have spent $ 330 US in the best case scenario.
That leaves me less than $ 400 for finding Elear on used market and an additional cord. Not an easy task to say the least.
AsherjohIt's a shame that relatively few people own audio gear that provides refined sound. I suppose most people think that high quality gear comes with exorbitant cost and/or is too complicated to set-up or use. Of course, we know this is not (always) the case. Many just don't know what products are available, how relatively easy some are to use, and how much better their performances is compared to what (low-end, main-stream) products they're used to. I also find it strange how so many more people are willing to spend thousands of dollars on televisions... than on audio gear that heightens the music/movie experience. Spending more does not always yield better sound/build quality, but Beats, Sony, JBL, Bose, and other companies have tricked/distracted the masses with an abundance of celebrity-endorsed marketing. As most of us are aware, a higher price tag does not always yield better sound, comfort, features, etc.
(Edited)
Shyan
119
Jan 1, 2018
mattris...and I too find it strange that many people are willing to drop a lot of money on a piece of gear which they have not seen/heard of, especially for audio gears which can be perceived very differently by different people.
Not knocking MD or Focal of course as this platform allowed many an entry into quality gears at "more affordable" pricing...but one will just have to roll the dice and take a leap of faith, and see what happens
s2kPanda
37
Jan 1, 2018
ShyanI find it strange too. I almost bought into this drop til i dropped out a few hours ago. I literally read everything I could in forums about the Elear/Clear and read multiple reviews and watched video reviews of them. At the end, I figured that these may not be preferable to my ears simply because it's going to be 5 long months. I'll be listening to a different set of headphones which I have and already like the sound signature of and it's just the fact that I bought LCD2Cs and I thoroughly enjoy them that I really can't justify this purchase since there is no return policy if they end up just sounding dead to my ears.
BeyondMaxPower
202
Feb 17, 2018
mBTXIf you're going balanced to reduce interference, you clearly have no idea why balanced is used. Balanced becomes important over EXTREMELY long cable runs, like a concert. There's hundreds of cables, running on top of each other. What interference are you going to pick up from a 6' cable?
If balanced was so important, speakers would use it. Balanced wiring in headphones is stupid. The majority of amps under $1,000 aren't even truly balanced.
Balanced in Headphones is great for hard to drive headphones, like HE-6. 99% of headphones don't need the extra power. Balanced cabling in headphones is snake oil. The benefits balanced brings makes no difference. Exotic cables are snake oil.
Believe what you want, but I'll gladly take the hundreds of dollars I'm saving, to buy equipment that actually makes a difference. A $300 cable, for a $300 headphone like HD650, is idiotic (Sadly I see this a lot). Buy $600 headphones instead.
jefe32
149
Feb 17, 2018
BeyondMaxPowerI am a single ended user and I approve of this message.
LucQc
212
Feb 17, 2018
BeyondMaxPowerLet's put things in context. The subject of balanced connection was brought in this conversation like this.

« I guess before writing this you at least had the opportunity to do a listening session of Elear with an amp + DAC retailed at least 2 500 $ ?! »
Added this comment:
« So every type of shielding are achieving the same results regarding *** noise reduction *** ? Every type of connectors are achieving the same results as well.
A more expensive amp that comes with more expensive types of Input are achieving nothing better than let's say an Objective 2 amp?
Funnily part of the answer is in your comment?! lol 8;-)
You may say the improvement is Over-Rated. Pretending it « shouldn't change the sound at all » is another story.
If you had a basic Professional Training in Electrical or Electronic Engineering you would not write this. »
And received this reply:
« Yes. If you wire headphones to have a balanced connection it allows them to get more power. I'm sorry if your peon brain perceives louder volume with better quality, but that is not the case. Yes, all cables sound the same if made correctly. »
How can someone bring the subject of balanced connection and not bring the subject of rejection property of differential topology?
Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating using balanced cables with an amp worth less than 2 000 $. I'm not even using balanced cables in Listening Room with an amp retailing at a price around 3 000 $. You wrote what is needed to get the full benefit of it.
I would not dare to push the limit to a point I would compare signals in a cables wiring a floor standing speakers with those in cables for headphones. We're talking of two different beasts. Neither I would pretend spending 3 000 $ for buying an amp is like throwing money in the garbage bin.
badboygolf16v
81
Feb 17, 2018
BeyondMaxPowerHeadphones aren't balanced. End of story! :-)
PirateIce
232
Feb 17, 2018
badboygolf16vWhy end your story while you are wrong? ;)
Motorrad
2898
Feb 18, 2018
ripsterarmy99That was a very impressive amount of trying to appear like you understand something, but demonstrating the opposite. Very impressive indeed!
ripsterarmy99
153
Feb 18, 2018
MotorradNo evidence provided just name calling. "Impressive indeed." Don't comment when you have nothing to add.
Motorrad
2898
Feb 18, 2018
ripsterarmy99You are not worth it. You've said so much and posted sooo many links, yet you have managed, still, to add nothing.
Motorrad
2898
Feb 18, 2018
BeyondMaxPowerBalanced headphones utilize and are driven by discrete differential sources. This has little to do with utilizing differential signal rejection. You have based your 'opinion' on prejudice and your incomplete and flawed comprehension. (Sadly, I see this a lot.)
LucQc
212
Feb 18, 2018
Motorrad« You have based your 'opinion' on prejudice and your incomplete and flawed comprehension. (Sadly, I see this a lot.) thumb_up »
This is why I brought the subject of balanced cabling while it was written that spending thousands of dollars for an amp is wasting money was brought to this conversation.
I wrote « more expensive amp that comes with more expensive types of Input ». This was a trap, reading the word « input » was important and my target fell for it.
Motorrad
2898
Feb 18, 2018
LucQcWhatever you need to tell yourself...
LucQc
212
Feb 18, 2018
Motorrad??? Not sure I am following you...
jefe32
149
Feb 18, 2018
LucQcI feel like this conversation can be held in the audiophile talk session under start discussion. This section is to talk about the Elex headphones.
LucQc
212
Feb 18, 2018
jefe32If you read my posts carefully, you'll see my comments was on subject 'till someone started his rant.
jefe32
149
Feb 18, 2018
LucQcI understand. Couldn't really reply to all, I guess.
LucQc
212
Feb 18, 2018
jefe32I'have asked several times MassDrop Staff to either do a moderating job properly or implement an Ignore This User function. This way all this nonsense would be easily avoided while the kid is preaching alone in the desert. ;-)
jefe32
149
Feb 18, 2018
LucQcLOL the imagery. All I case say is don't take the bait.
LucQc
212
Feb 18, 2018
jefe32Well, I would not take it if the **** darn website would stop generating a popup window *** reminding me the kid replied. I opened a ticket asking if it was possible to disable all the darn notifications, no answer many months later. *sigh*
jefe32
149
Feb 18, 2018
LucQcI believe it comes from your browser. When you first visit a website Chrome/Firefox ( I assume others as well) will ask you if you want to receive notifications from the site. If you accidentally dismiss it with a yes then that is where the op-ups may originate from. But getting back to the Elex. I am going to the states this summer and so want this...and a campfire polaris. Or a Focal Clear. My wallet cries a tear every night due to "this hobby".
LucQc
212
Feb 18, 2018
jefe32I know. I would want to filter the popups. I may want to be notified my package has been shipped while not wanting a notification reminding the script kid has replied. All this would be easily with a good old Ignore This User so many forums are implementing. Believe the trolls are not liking those forums. Chrome or Firefox can't implement this filtering. We need something more efficient than simply disabling all notifications from MassDrop website.
jefe32
149
Feb 18, 2018
LucQcFiltering notifications would be cool.
ripsterarmy99
153
Feb 19, 2018
MotorradSo an excuse to call names because you can't formulate any facts? Good to know.
Afterman
237
Feb 19, 2018
badboygolf16vHow about running two computers? One sends the left signal to the left driver and the other computer sends the right signal to the right driver! Now that would be balanced.
RayF
22214
Mar 10, 2018
AftermanAnd how 'bout one is in New York, and the other in New Haven (CT)? I don't know either, but I was just curious...
Afterman
237
Mar 10, 2018
RayFAnd then run a wire to each.
RayF
22214
Mar 11, 2018
ripsterarmy99When you use the term "retarded" you pretty much lose your argument--whatever the hell it was...
ripsterarmy99
153
Mar 11, 2018
RayFNo not at all, no words inherently discredit an argument.
RayF
22214
Mar 11, 2018
AftermanA really thick one...
search
RayF
22214
Mar 11, 2018
ripsterarmy99I would argue otherwise, but your words, in this case, certainly have discredited you. Adults don't call each other "retards."
Know what 'ah mean, Vern?
ripsterarmy99
153
Mar 18, 2018
RayFI would say when it is warranted it's fine, such as when someone claims something with no scientific evidence or proof.
RayF
22214
Mar 18, 2018
ripsterarmy99 Then you're suggesting Einstein and Steven Hawkins (and Galileo and Newton) were all "retards"? First comes theory, then comes proof. Often the two are separated by lengthy and inconvenient gaps in time. That's just the way of it. No need to start burning people at at the stake, in the interim.
(Edited)
PirateIce
232
Mar 18, 2018
ripsterarmy99So much time spent complaining people haven't proved their statements enough, and yet such a complete lack of support for your own arguments, weak trolling job dude, at least you've given many good experience with these common argumentative tactics in a way that can be easily understood and dismissed. I think the best part was 5 weeks after hes been calling people retards hes suprised someone insults him lol.
ripsterarmy99
153
Mar 20, 2018
PirateIceI'm not making baseless claims, this is a false understanding of the burden of proof.
ripsterarmy99
153
Mar 20, 2018
RayFI can call them retards all I like until there is valid scientific evidence. That's my decision to do so. I'm sure it happened to the great minds before. Imagine describing a modern day computer in 1910. People would call you crazy or similar insults for the time. Until people can prove it is possible they are disregarded, naturally.
RayF
22214
Mar 20, 2018
dasman
387
Mar 21, 2018
RayFplease, don't feed the trolls
RayF
22214
Mar 21, 2018
dasman I don't care for the term, it's generally used incorrectly and applied for the wrong reasons. It doesn't appear that you've been part of the conversation thus far so your contribution at this point is somewhat irrelevant.
(Edited)
audible
602
Mar 21, 2018
RayFHe is without a doubt a troll. Also, the notion that this screed is a "conversation" or that any of the comments here are "relevant" is exceedingly generous.
RayF
22214
Mar 21, 2018
audibleI admit you've caught me in a charitable mood this morning--let's try to enjoy it while it lasts.
dasman
387
Mar 22, 2018
RayFActually, if you scroll up a couple of months you'll see that I was part of the conversation.
I don't care for the term either and agree with your view. But people keep feeding this troll and he won't go away.... he's been at it since the first days of the initial drop.
All he is doing is polluting the drop with noise
ripsterarmy99
153
Mar 22, 2018
dasmanSo be the more mature person and stop commenting instead of complaining? I fail to see how crying about a "troll" is any more helpful than the "troll".
PirateIce
232
Mar 22, 2018
ripsterarmy99Well, it is at least an honest comment. Sometimes trolls dont know they troll, you know? or not?
PirateIce
232
Mar 22, 2018
ripsterarmy99There IS a point to learning about it ;) We'll help you along as best we can.
PirateIce
232
Mar 22, 2018
ripsterarmy99So its funny I went to look up your claims and you really did just initially open up a volley of baseless claims and never tried to support them, lol! lets go through it
ripsterarmy99 13w Currawong - snake oil salesmen
ripsterarmy99 13w caliphonia - If a cable makes a change in sound, either your first one was incorrectly made/broken, or the new one is incorrectly made/broken. It shouldn't change the sound at all.
ripsterarmy99 13w mattris - Schiit has made incoherent statements on their multibit DACs, they are snake oil.
ripsterarmy99 13w mattris - I'm not saying these particular headphones are snake oil, I'm saying he owns many products that are snake oil and have no scientific basis for their design and price.

this one he starts into the insults before anyone has really noticed him much, but it clarifies the meat of the rest of the discussion where he is making the claim without support that all headphone cables should sound the same and that includes balanced vs unbalanced.
ripsterarmy99 76 13w LucQc Yes. If you wire headphones to have a balanced connection it allows them to get more power. I'm sorry if your peon brain perceives louder volume with better quality, but that is not the case. Yes, all cables sound the same if made correctly.
the rest is irrelevant but he then goes on to make trolling comments in which he assumses its leftists arguing against him because he equates them with morons, and pretends people are just mad at him for having a differing opinion...
Where is the support FROM ripster for HIS claims?!? instead he yells that others are making baseless claims, it is a very obvious deflection.
If ripster or anyone else for that matter wants to show where he SUPPORTED the baseless claims he started his own converstation about suddenly, then that would be quite a revelation and maybe we can rethink if he is really trolling or trying to express himself badly, until then its obvious he is trolling and this is the most assistance I can think of to help him understand this, and also, stop making baseless claims KTHX.
PirateIce
232
Mar 22, 2018
PirateIceah crap somehow i scrolled by that mattris already made this post almost exactly, ill give rip a few to check it out again and reflect before i trash it.
dasman
387
Mar 22, 2018
PirateIcedo not trash your comment, it is valid and the lack of navigation/ organization on MD comments means that having something restated later isn't a bad thing
LucQc
212
Mar 22, 2018
PirateIce« ripsterarmy99 76 13w LucQc Yes. If you wire headphones to have a balanced connection it allows them to get more power. I'm sorry if your peon brain perceives louder volume with better quality, but that is not the case. Yes, all cables sound the same if made correctly. then he just shows he wants to troll leftists, pretends people are just mad at him for having a differing opinion, but where is the support FROM ripster FOR his claims, instead he yells that others are making baseless claims, it is a very obvious deflection. »
At that point, I was thinking of shouting « Fish on! » because he took the bait. I did not because there is no point to brag of hooking a small fish. More a disappointment than anything else. 8;-( *sigh*
ripsterarmy99
153
Mar 22, 2018
LucQcI'm not claiming a balanced connection (a baseless claim with no evidence) makes a difference sonically. You can't shift the blame because I'm asking someone to back up theirs. Classic burden of proof shifting. If I say there's a unicorn behind you, it's up to me to prove it, not you to disprove. Just like if someone claims a balanced connection sounds better, it's up to them to prove it, not me to disprove.
PirateIce
232
Mar 23, 2018
ripsterarmy99Correct you first claimed no cable ever makes a difference unless broken, then supported that by making another claim about balanced connections making no difference, opinions contrary to what other listeners have stated. Let me inform you a bit on the subject, this link speaks both to the fact that most advantages of balanced connections are indeed unnecessary in headphone amps, but that there are other advantages that are favorable, take a gander: https://www.headphone.com/pages/balanced-headphones-guide
PirateIce
232
Mar 23, 2018
ripsterarmy99I will remind you that you did agree that balanced connections provide more power, and that certain headphones are known for having higher power requirements so when you disregard this fact merely because louder is not better you forget that some headphones may need this power just to reach reference volume levels without additional gain and thus would have improved fidelity on a balanced connection compared to a struggling unbalanced one of the same power. Of course if you get a more powerfull amp that would work as well, my earlier link showed how this setup was seen as a way to get this power and fidelity with less cost than simply raising the power capabilities of the amp.
Would you, rip, like to support your claims at this time? hrmmmmmmmmmmm? Or if you are not making any claims... explain what you are attempting? Was this a confused request for info? Well there you go! YW!
PirateIce
232
Mar 23, 2018
ripsterarmy99I think we're pretty much done since you are saying you didnt make any claims, and you say you are calling someone else out, but you didnt actually call anyone out here making claims, you called out other companies elsewhere that werent making claims here... thats an accusation... and a claim... You really need to look at this burden of proof issue, it just seems to be a delusional way you think you can get around supporting your statements because you are angry at someone else's statements and then starting a conversation elsewhere.
You made claims, back them up or shovel them out.
PirateIce
232
Mar 23, 2018
ripsterarmy99So any way I'm going to once again support the counter argument (because you started this with your claim, this the main argument, still unsupported) by how its normally done. Theres a listener, he notices the difference, he states the difference... we discuss, get it? A review of a balanced headphone amp. https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/bryston-bha-1-fully-balanced-headphone-amplifier A statement from the review. "The BHA-1 sounded more in control over the balanced connection, compared with the single-ended sound." Support for the balanced headphone connection, once again, stated in this thread... the support for balanced headphone cables, and apparantly all other cables being identical.... STILL UNHEARD OF IN ANY FORM OF ANALYSIS MENTIONED IN THIS THREAD. Ah, the burden is lifted ;)
PirateIce
232
Mar 23, 2018
ripsterarmy99 Can't wait to hear you go into this and expect responses without even trying to mention an article or anyone's objective attempt at analysis on this matter... let alone your own in some coherent form.
LucQc
212
Mar 23, 2018
ripsterarmy99You don't even remember what you claimed. I brought amp in the conversation when you claimed that « all cables sound the same if made correctly » and that spending more than what you're doing on your amp is a waste of money.
Do you seriously think I had not something in mind when I wrote every connector on an amp. lol
A community member
Feb 18, 2019
caliphoniaWho needs drugs when you have thousands sinked into audiophile products? Por people thats who
A community member
Feb 18, 2019
ripsterarmy99Great. i had some respect. until you mentioned AudioGD. That was it, I had about enough of working with AudioGD.
RayF
22214
Feb 18, 2019
Currawong Extract of serpent not withstanding, lotta good music in those recommendations--thanks for that!
(Edited)
RayF
22214
Feb 28, 2019
A community member
Apr 13, 2019
mattrisWill somebody prove that the dampening changes exist.
mrcrunch08
158
Aug 5, 2020
ripsterarmy99Lmao, I know this is so old and hopefully you have learned how wrong you are by now. I especially found "I own the most neutral headphones in the world" especially funny. Even if that was true just because they are neutral doesn't mean they are capable of resolving differences in some gear. HD600's are great headphones but they are far from the most resolving. If I would judge all my gear off of the hd600 I would probably be making similar claims. All my dacs sounds nearly identical with the 600s but with more resolving and transparent headphones the difference is large and noticeable. Idk why people must big up the things they own to the point of ignorance.
ripsterarmy99
153
Aug 22, 2020
mrcrunch08Provide scientific evidence that proves "ability to resolve differences in gear". Sounds to me you like attributing price to quality, because surely no company would sell you something expensive with no scientific measurable qualities, right?
mrcrunch08
158
Aug 23, 2020
ripsterarmy99Can you quote the part I talked about price? I said absolutely nothing in my post to you about price or tier of gear. There are reasons things sound different and all you need to do is go to audiosciencereview and you can find all the measurements you want and maybe even learn a thing or two. I haven't seen you accurately respond to a comment yet. You are at the point of fabricating things to defend your bias towards the stuff you own. If you are happy and content with your gear I am happy for you. We all should be but there is no excuse for ignorance.
ripsterarmy99
153
Sep 11, 2020
mrcrunch08> Even if that was true just because they are neutral doesn't mean they are capable of resolving differences in some gear. Explain what "resolving differences in some gear" means. Next, provide scientific evidence that undoubtedly proves there is a scientific, recordable metric that indicates whether a headphone is capable of "resolving". You made the assertation HD600s can't on some gear, I want proof this concept exists and isn't groupthink or pseudoscience.
ripsterarmy99Like the "groupthink" that speaker/headphone cables make absolutely no difference in sound?
ripsterarmy99
153
Sep 11, 2020
mattrisTangible difference? No. Differences due to natural tolerances? Yes. It doesn't change the fundamental sound.
ripsterarmy99Please define "natural tolerances" and "the fundamental sound". Are you claiming that a cable's materials, shielding, or construction have no audible effect on the resulting sound? May I ask, what speaker and headphone cables have you directly compared? Could it be that you cannot hear a "tangible difference" on your equipment... but others can on theirs?
ripsterarmy99
153
Sep 12, 2020
mattrisnatural tolerances: Engineering tolerance is the permissible limit or limits of variation in:
  1. a physical dimension;
  2. a measured value or physical property of a material, manufactured object, system, or service;
  3. other measured values (such as temperature, humidity, etc.);
  4. in engineering and safety, a physical distance or space (tolerance), as in a truck (lorry), train or boat under a bridge as well as a train in a tunnel (see structure gauge and loading gauge);
  5. in mechanical engineering the space between a bolt and a nut or a hole, etc.
Dimensions, properties, or conditions may have some variation without significantly affecting functioning of systems, machines, structures, etc. A variation beyond the tolerance (for example, a temperature that is too hot or too cold) is said to be noncompliant, rejected, or exceeding the tolerance. The fundamental sound: The sound as measured on a given pair of headphones with it's OEM cable as a baseline. >Are you claiming that a cable's materials, shielding, or construction have no audible effect on the resulting sound? Yes. This has absolutely no measurable effect on the sound quality. This is easily proven by the infamous "coat hanger cable" test. There's an interesting albeit old post over on the Audioholics forum where folks with some very good kit decided to put Monster 1000 speaker cables up against probably the worst cabling you could have - coat hangers. The outcome says it all:
After 5 tests, none could determine which was the Monster 1000 cable or the coat hanger wire. Further, when music was played through the coat hanger wire, we were asked if what we heard sounded good to us. All agreed that what was heard sounded excellent, however, when A-B tests occurred, it was impossible to determine which sounded best the majority of the time and which wire was in use.
Needless to say, after the blindfolds came off and we saw what my brother did, we learned he was right...most of what manufactures have to say about their products is pure hype. It seems the more they charge, the more hyped it is.
... but others can on theirs? They can think they can because they own expensive things and have post-purchase rationalization, but it is untrue. To perform a truly unbiased test, you need silent, third party ABX switching. To add to this, you need over 90% certainty with a minimum of 50 tests to prove absolute proof, and not just by beating the odds by wildly guessing.
ripsterarmy99In your view, how exactly would "differences due to natural tolerances" be applicable with headphone and speaker cables? How exactly would a headphone's sound be measured "with it's OEM cable as a baseline"? What speaker and headphone cables have you compared directly? Are you claiming that all cable sound 'differences' are placebo? What evidence can you present that indicates that cable's materials, shielding, or construction techniques have no audible effect on the resulting sound?
rastus
1391
Sep 13, 2020
mattrisAs I sit with a cup of coffee, trying to think of the best solution for a brain interface electrode. What metal... Ir... or is it going to be graphene, or something wonderfully new, a superlattice structure (love’em - like making new elements;)... Musk even says its “difficult” in his Neuralink presentation, no shit Elon... but,, perhaps,, do you think? Yes! Magical Coat Hanger Metal! MCHM, they should’a just started there;) Mattris, thanks for again trying, but to some the Sun is still the center of the universe, points of view... or just another belief system that comforts... If we lived in a world that had room temperature superconductors and coat hangers were made out of OCC Silver,, it would be the same discussion... but hey, it’s why we turn on the TV some days. I am once again entertained by the coat hanger mentality;) Nice on a quiet Sunday morning, before all are awake, http://www.maryyoungblood.com/
ripsterarmy99
153
Sep 21, 2020
mattris>In your view, how exactly would "differences due to natural tolerances" be applicable with headphone and speaker cables? You measure a ton of headphones, observe the variance and average them out, noting the most notable anomalies. >How exactly would a headphone's sound be measured "with it's OEM cable as a baseline"? You measure the headphones with the cable that comes in the box. >What speaker and headphone cables have you compared directly? Regular HD600 cable versus a custom made L/R XLR cable, third party ABX silent switched from another room with the help of a friend. Absolutely no difference whatsoever. >Are you claiming that all cable sound 'differences' are placebo? No, I'm saying it is a result of natural variance in the metals used to make the cable, along with the quality affecting the conductance, resistance, temperature coefficient of resistance due to changes in the testing environment, among other factors. >What evidence can you present that indicates that cable's materials, shielding, or construction techniques have no audible effect on the resulting sound? No headphone has been ever measured with an expensive/good cable, with verifiable measurements that show a consistent, purposefully enhanced sound signature that cannot be achieved with EQ.
ripsterarmy99Instead of "You measure a ton of headphones", did you mean "You measure a ton of headphone cables"? What criteria would determine the specific cables measured? Surely, various cables' "differences due to natural tolerances" would be irrelevant. I'm interested in the potential sound differences due to various core sizes, materials, shielding, etc.

"...observe the variance and average them out, noting the most notable anomalies." Anomalies of specifically what measured variances? For your ABX test, you didn't note the DAC, amplifier, details of the audio tracks, connection type, or the properties/materials of the cables used. Because the HD600 is not a resolving headphone, noting subtle differences - with any variable in the audio chain - would be difficult, even for those with superior hearing discernment abilities. I see you admitted that "the quality affecting the conductance, resistance, temperature coefficient of resistance due to changes in the testing environment, among other factors" of a cable do affect the sound.

"No headphone has been ever measured with an expensive/good cable, with verifiable measurements that show a consistent, purposefully enhanced sound signature that cannot be achieved with EQ."

How do you know this to be true? Sound measuring equipment does not tell the full picture, as it cannot quantify sound-stage (width, height, depth), imaging, and other facets of sound as human ears hear.

"...enhanced sound signature that cannot be achieved with EQ." What?
(Edited)
Motorrad
2898
Sep 23, 2020
mrcrunch08pfft...not another cult member who read some numbers on ASR and now thinks he actually knows what he's talking about. better yet...arguing with another dolt @ripsterarmy99 who knows less than nothing. This is like watching two blindfolded kids swinging at a pinata and they occasionally hit each other. hilarious.
ripsterarmy99
153
Sep 29, 2020
mattris>Instead of "You measure a ton of headphones", did you mean "You measure a ton of headphone cables"? Headphone diaphragms also have natural tolerances, so you'd have to measure 1000 headphones with each cable to ensure that not only the cable is ruled out of the picture, so is the diaphragm. >I'm interested in the potential sound differences due to various core sizes, materials, shielding, etc. You're someone with a superiority complex who thinks owning more expenisive things than other people makes you superior, as all audiophiles are. You are rather quick to downplay the HD600s when world renowned recording engineer, Tony Maserati, chooses them as his headphones of choice. I await your masterful work in the realm of audio engineering and mixing. Please let me know at the earliest possible time what great music you help produce and have win awards. >I see you admitted that "the quality affecting the conductance, resistance, temperature coefficient of resistance due to changes in the testing environment, among other factors" of a cable do affect the sound. This is known as MARGIN OF ERROR. >"No headphone has been ever measured with an expensive/good cable, with verifiable measurements that show a consistent, purposefully enhanced sound signature that cannot be achieved with EQ."

>How do you know this to be true? Because a conclusive scientific experient has never been published with such parameters. >as it cannot quantify sound-stage (width, height, depth), imaging, and other facets of sound as human ears hear. If it cannot be quantified through verifiable scientific means, it cannot be used when talking in the realm of scientific data. >"...enhanced sound signature that cannot be achieved with EQ." What? Audiophools, most notably middle aged white men, often cite that more expensive cables "make the sound more open, airy, make the bass more impactful, increase the "speed" of a headphone (lol), and other such nonsense. Whether the cable is OEM or 10 grand, the cables will not measure differently outside of margin of error, meaning they accomplish the same sound.
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