What would be a good portable Dac/Amp to use with my HD6xx and Sony Xperia 1 V cell phone?
I am new to this hobby. I purchased a HD6XX and plan to use it with my Sony Xperia 1 V cell phone, that has a 3.5mm jack. I was wondering if I needed a portable dac/amp or just a portable amp and if so what would one recommend? Any assistance one could provide, would be greatly appreciated. Kind regards, Haz
Mar 7, 2024
Any advice is appreciated. I'm trying to stay under 250 for the amp or amp/dac. Thanks!
I guess my long-winded response is basically saying a DAC will have more impact than an amp unless you're going SS vs Tube (and that's a different can of worms). As long as your amp is supplying the correct amount of continuous and peak power to your headphones, they should all roughly sound the same. The source itself matters more as the DAC from a laptop, cellphone, TV, AV receiver or external unit will have a bigger difference on sound due to implementation and how much noise/jitter/distortion/etc. they introduce into the signal they are converting.
DSD (native) capability in any new DAC, is a desirable moving forward; it should be there in the new MD unit...
later you could add a Massdrop x THX AAA™ 789 as a pure SS amp to the matching stack, aesthetics count, and by specs it is equally impressive; reviews will be forthcoming;)
So what I'm trying to say is, Amplifiers have lots of variables, and dacs are made to have very few variables, which means an amp will affect sound way more than a dac will.
You then throw in the implementation of various DAC chips and that sound can be altered further, for better or for worse depending on the users taste. To infer that DACs do not contain the same level of configurations is very misleading.
Dacs are made to do nothing to the sound except for edge cases. It's their job to let the amplifier do the hard work, and deal with all the analog signals and the variables that come with it. The cheaper dacs will change a the sound because the components they use aren't quite up to spec, but you hit a very early plateau in sound quality once you get past $150-$200 dacs.
Now, we haven't even got to the actual job of a DAC that determines a system's performance: resolution, max sampling rate, monotonicity, THD, noise, phase distortion, jitter, etc. The list goes on with what these little chips have to do and convert while passing this signal. And with all that, we have a device that has more work to do than amplifying the signal. Which also means there are a multitude of factors that will change and alter that signal for better or for worse before it is even amped.
Any input signal, albeit digital, will introduce timing differences that will affect sound output. More expensive DACs have something to reclock the data or sync its clock with the source of the digital signal. This will lead to more accurate sound playback although this comes at a much higher cost to the user. So, no, there isn't a "very early" plateau for cheap DACs. Even a DAC approaching $1k will yield benefits not found in something a fraction of its cost. How much that matters to is the differing factor. But in this hobby, we all value diminishing returns differently.\
Also, tube DACs are not that uncommon. They're just typically pretty expensive and have a high dollar amount for entry level gear so most look past them. Most who are looking to drop $1,500 on a tube DAC have a rather extensive setup already and are looking to add a sidestep to their system. I tend to see them more in home theater audio (they can be quite large) but there are plenty that are on the cheaper end for headphone systems. The Aune T1 is a prime example.
Distortion numbers are well above the acceptable limits on all but the cheapest dacs, and an ODAC will sound just as good as a $1000 dac in a blind test.
Sampling rates make 0 difference, very few people can tell the difference between a 192kbps mp3 vs a 320kbps mp3 which is a much bigger change in the amount of information than the sampling rate of said file.
For a dac, a big change in the sound is very minimal, unless it's designed to make a bigger change, like with a filter. With an amplifier, the the difference in the signal before and after it goes through the circuitry is huge, and any tiny imperfections in the amplifier will be increased 10000x with the rest of the signal.
The aune t1 is not a tube dac. That's a ss dac with a small class a tube amp built in.
Obviously the source signal is important, but if the job of your device so to do as little to the sound as possible, the differences between dacs should be very small, as we've gotten to the point that cheap dacs put out really good numbers, and there's not much reason to go super expensive unless it has some features you really like or if it colors the sound with a filter you want. If your dacs are coloring the sound so much that you notice it, you either have really badly made equipment, or you spend a fortune on a dac that has a filter you like. For $200 an ODAC will do the job for just about any headphone, and if you want any meaningful change in sound, you're better off changing the speakers/headphones, then your amp, and the dac should be the last thing you look to change, except for cables.
I challenge you to notice a difference between an ODAC and a $1,000 with a blind A/B test. Because I have. And there is a minimal difference, to the point that me and 99% of other people wouldn't notice a difference.
For $200 an ODAC will do the job for just about any headphone, and if you want any meaningful change in sound, you're better off changing the speakers/headphones, then your amp, and the dac should be the last thing you look to change, except for cables.
2nd, it's asinine to think that someone cannot discern between 192kbps and 320 kbps. Again, of you're using a capable DAC, it will highlight the flaws of the lower bitrate file and make them glaringly known.
The issue that's killing me with your rebuttal is I don't think you fully grasp what a DAC does. If my amp is mated properly to my headphones, then it boils down to the DAC and source. If I'm playing, FLAC, DSD, MQA, etc. those will all be processed and filtered differently depending on the DAC and implementation irrespective of the sampling rate and resolution. And again, depending on said chip and implementation will determine the clock and noise to deliver a signal as close to 1:1 as possible.
Again, I never said the PURPOSE of a DAC is to change the sound, only that it will have more impact on the signal being delivered compared to an amp. Which it will.
Just because you can't tell the difference, or better yet don't care, is your prerogative. But to suggest that an amp will somehow deliver an entirely different listening experience is beyond me. If an amp is delivering power to it's equipment as intended, the only thing left to alter the signal would be the DAC, whether that's from a cellphone tablet, receiver, or external unit.
And yes, I have been able to well the difference as well as many others in this hobby. ESS chips have their sound same as a Burr Brown or Multibit. That's why I have the stance I do as comparing to my buddies expensive rig and keeping the amount and source files the same, the DACs all had their own personality that contributed to the overall sound than comparing amps. Just because you're underpowering your equipment with poor amps and not delivering their max voltage for the source is the problem. As long as that criteria is met, their will be no discernible difference between SS amps with the same power outputs. That's my point.
You don't seem to know how a dac works, a dac takes 1s and 0s and turns them into an analog signal. The format it takes it in makes 0 difference to the dac chip, the only difference is how fast it processes the information and how clean the waveform it generates out the other side is. And the worst a normal dac puts out with a 320kbps mp3 at 44.1khz is indistinguishable to a human hear, except for maybe a baby, because their ears are better, to any other format. You may think you hear a difference between a dac that's supposed to be neutral, and another day that's supposed to be neutral, but that just makes you a fool if you spend any money to try and back it up. A dac makes imperceptible changes to the sound once you get above the $200 range and anyone that tells you otherwise has probably already spent the money on a dac that is too expensive and convinced themselves their investment was worthwhile. I don't care if you agree with me or not, I just don't want any person that's new to this hobby to see your (frankly wrong) opinion that a dac will effect the sound more than an amp and base any decisions off of it.
I'm 90% sure you're a troll at this point, so I'm done responding to you, because you're either set in your ways, or trying to make people angry, and I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
After that, the DAC is what will make the most difference in their chain as seeing without the DAC, the amp doesn't have any signal to amplify. And how that signal is processed BEFORE it gets to the amp is important. And how you've come to the subjective point of anything above $200 is a waste, is laughable. That's YOUR perception. So, you'd rather waste money on another amp that otherwise supplies the same ample power to your gear, or go with a different DAC that can play DSD or MQA files and/or filter them differently? That's the point I'm making that you can't seem to grasp. And it's an important one. The signal being amplified means nothing as the DAC is the one processing and passing it. If the amp stays the same, any reasonable person could tell the difference from the DAC in a cellphone, to an Oppo HA2SE, to a Schiit Gungnir Multibit. The fact that you think Delta-Sigma and Multibit sounds the same is remarkable. DACs may all just convert 0's and 1's but they all don't do it the same way before sending a signal. When you're dealing with clocking errors, that jitter is going to alter the sound no matter how it's amped. And the better the DAC, the better it's going to reduce this packet loss as well as other noise introduced in the signal.
Lastly, the only troll here is you as you didn't even know the Aune T1 is a tube DAC. That alone shows your ignorance on the subject.
just as a sanity check - digital audio delivery through DAC and USB is super mature technology and more or less undifferentiated. companies will build an impressive spec list for high-end audio companies to fit their branding / marketing purpose but the basic function of digital to analog conversion has seen incremental improvement at best. this commoditization drove a bit of consolidation for TI/Burr Brown and Cirrus / Wolfson.
Cirrus, TI, AKM, Analog Devices, Toshiba, ESS, Maxim, On Semiconductor, Vishay probably own about ~80% of this niche market, bid for the same contracts, offer similar capabilities, price points etc. i would be very surprised if there was a material difference between them in terms of technological abilities in audio processing.
so @Jotunn, the DAC in your MacBook is good to go. that said, if you want an external DAC cause you want to play around with gear, that is ok too. i have my collection of DACs, AMPs, and DAC/AMPs. just realize it is not needed for your original stated purpose of MB > CTH > Elex and the DAC components will likely be made by one of the OEMs i listed above, with similar DAC abilities but different power management features.
side comment - bringing up DAC clocking errors and jitter to showcase the importance of the DAC's impact on sound is kind of weird. that is akin to saying 'this laptop offers a great computing experience because the keyboard does not lag and the space bar works every time'. technically it is true but it just sounds funny. if you work for Cirrus Logic, AKM, ESS etc. i would hope these basic design issues would have been ironed out before the sales team arrived. most of the time these guys will throw out some impressive THD stats or its power sipping ability at xxkHz sampling. good sound is table stakes.
The fact of the matter is even between the Mojo and the iFi DAC, they are not doing the same thing to a DSD file. That's what you don't seem to understand. If they are both filtering the track differently than how can one expect them to sound the same? That's why I keep saying until you've heard for yourself say a Mojo and compared ti to your ODAC, you really can't understand what I'm saying due to context.
In the article, he is talking a lot about cost vs perception. Again, I never stated ANYTHING about costs and better, high-end gear. I stated that DACs can and will sound differently much like a properly built SS amp. In the article, he states much of the same in a comment below: " NwAvGuyMay 24, 2011 at 12:47 PM To Anonymous at 9:13 AM, Devices like the E-Mu 0404 (I have one) are more oriented towards recording than playback. The 0404 requires proprietary software drivers, has pro-audio connectors, and makes an especially poor headphone DAC. It's a very different product than most audiophile DACs. There are plenty of inexpensive DAC chips that can perform very well these days. But the implementation is where a lot of companies get something wrong--like NuForce did with the uDAC-2. So without proper measurements, you really don't know if a company got it right or not--regardless of what chips they used. For example, there are relatively large measurable differences in jitter performance between DACs--especially via USB. Some people seem more sensitive to jitter than others and it's not clear at what level jitter becomes audible. So I would be inclined to choose a DAC with lower jitter--as verified by independent measurements (versus the manufactures claims). "
And
"NwAvGuyMay 31, 2011 at 8:21 AM Hey Satellite, thanks for the comments. I added the link. I wouldn't say "complete objectivists" always buy really cheap gear. I own a Benchmark DAC1 Pre and other spendy gear. And I know plenty of hardcore objectivists who have invested well into 5 figure territory. It's not so much about cost as it is paying for tangible benefits--the Benchmark has better measurements, for example, than anything I know of for under $1600. Someone else might pay for something because it's well made in the USA and has a long warranty."
As I stated above, depending on the OP's need and preference, a DAC would benefit the Elex. That was the main question posited. If he's spending that sort of coin for headphones, any DAC would be an increase in fidelity than his Macbook, especially if he plans to listen to Tidal MQA or DSD files. One would assume that with a quality headphone, they would want the best signal delivered through their chain.
To answer your question though, regardless of the filtering used the objective with any dac or amp is to be as transparent as possible, and any noticeable difference between dacs or amps that can't be electronically measured needs to be blind tested to remove the possibility of a psychological bias (aka you believe you hear a difference because you see two difference devices and therefore there must be one) or (well this one is playing mp3 and this one is playing flac so there must be a difference).
Perhaps you should go back to the blog and read the section labelled involuntary bias and the need to believe. when you say stuff like "If they are both filtering the track differently than how can one expect them to sound the same?" and also in regards to this "until you've heard for yourself say a Mojo and compared ti to your ODAC, you really can't understand what I'm saying due to context". unless i was able to compare them in a blind test anything i heard that was different could be put down as a psychological bias of simply believing theres a difference.
In another video i watched one of the guys in the video state that he had an old broken amp and a new expensive amp and put a big fake switch in front of them and all this switch did was make a click up and down, it didn't swap amps, he tested many of his audiophile friends and they all said things like the expensive amp sounded more natural, Warmer, Cleaner and any other descriptive word you can think of, Yet everything they heard was through the same amp at all times. So please do yourself a favor instead of arguing with me (I don't know whether your doing it to justify purchases or because you genuinely believe you are right), there is ultimately no harm or cost in doing a blind test with audio products like dacs and amps, because in the long run, no matter what the specifications says or what you are putting through it, or what you or I believe if you can not on any song under any circumstance notice an audible difference in the blind testing then what does it matter.
Even with the comment I posted, from NWavguy that you mentioned, he states the same thing I mentioned above regarding jitter and how individuals perceive that and how DAC performance can affect that. Yet somehow, you skate over that to talk about all of this other stuff outside the realm of what the OP originally asked.
I have nothing to justify here except a conversation. Just like I said before, just because YOU can't perceive a difference and aren't sensitive to jitter or hiss like others does it diminish the benefits of a good DAC in your audio chain. You keep bringing up cost and yet again I have stated nothing about the OP buying stupidly expensive or exotic equipment. Just that a DAC would present changes in his chain as they already own the CTH which will power the Elex just fine.
I just feel like you're being obstinate even after seeing quotes from NWavguy and reading the article. As far as I know, maybe I'm more sensitive to jitter as he States. And maybe you're not. I know I am with hiss and my very sensitive IEMs and have equipment to counter that. The only point here was to help the OP answer their question about whether a DAC would be needed over their MacBook. And the consensus overall is that one would. Especially if their chasing the best quality they can get. Which, one would assume in spending almost $1k on an amp and headphones. A DAC would be the next logical piece to their chain. And depending on what they want to hear or grow, the DAC they choose matters. If they all sounded the same then it would be a non-issue but just like amps, they have their own quirks that the OP may hate or love.
I'd be quite surprised if you blind tested gear and could actually notice a difference, excluding any cheaper gear under $100-200,
Even between the ODAC, Modi and Aune T1 (RCA out) which are all around the same price, the difference is easy to tell. Out of these 3 I prefer the Aune over Modi over ODAC, and that's in descending price order.
Price doesn't really correlate with enjoyability, but I find it does play a role in technicality. That is, if you consider a $2K Benchmark DAC, it is technically more transparent and resolving than the Modi, but the oval tonality of the $100 DAC is still more enjoyable.
Something to note though, most beginner audiophiles cannot tell the difference between DACs, this is not a criticism but just an observation. I was a beginner audiophile once and couldn't tell the difference between a $50 DAC and a $1000 one. I bought a Schiit Bifrost many years ago and sold it within the same week because it made zero difference to me.
Once you know what to listen for, suddenly everything will start sounding different. It's not about having golden ears, it's a natural evolution over time.
People can spend their money on whatever they want, it just kind of bothered me that somebody would post such a low quality and annoying response to an informed and reasonable comment. There are many instances where somebody actually did perform a blind test and said they heard zero difference between equipment, https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/8d2h8g/with_sennheisers_hd_600_i_cant_tell_the/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=headphones , here's one from today. This really surprised me, but the guy did an ACTUAL objective test yet he wasn't able to hear a difference in the 600s even though they're not the easiest thing to power.
This isn't an isolated case, there are many reviews, tests, and even sound demos like this if you look for them. I was never insulting this site or the products and I don't know why you're bringing that up.
At one point buying expensive audio components becomes questionable, if not completely subjective and influenced greatly by placebo. This is especially true with Dac/Amps because of offerings such as the O2/ODAC. IMO its almost completely a waste of money to buy DACS that cost over $100-150, and to a lesser extent the same goes true for solid-state amps.
I could kind of understand buying more expensive tube amps, but that's about it. When people are paying ridiculous prices for things that don't do better than their cheaper counterparts in measurements, it's time to do a sanity check and perform some blind tests. Expensive cables would be the most extreme example of this crappy spending, unless you could prove this otherwise??
Guess you reaffirmed that though.. Hilarious that you just jumped there! :')
" any talk about any gear is met with "did you blind test it though?" "
I don't think that is true. The community has a tendency to recommend fairly priced gear, and understands that placebo does exist in the audio world. I don't see how this could possibly be a bad thing. It's not like they circlejerk constantly about it.
I think you got /r/headphones confused with Head-Fi for a majority of these points. Anyways, just because a community differs from what gear and price ranges YOU look for in audio doesn't mean they're a bunch of "mostly inexperienced users". It's almost as if you went on /r/headphones once, started scrolling down, saw more posts asking questions rather than reviews and said "these are a bunch of group-thinking uninformed users" even though you never bothered to read the comments of any post that you saw and check out the answers that people have to offer to the questions asked on there. This is similar to judging a forum solely by the titles of each thread.
Apparently Reddit is a much more popular community. Because of this you will see more questions asked by beginners and budget advice than on more niche forums. This doesn’t make the community bad, the information that comes from the people that answer these questions is just as helpful and knowledgeable, and the users are more friendly as well.
I can’t understand your point about group think in the community, it’s probably one of the least circlejerky and most comfortable audiophile communities I know. No circlejerks, no enormous hype over products (literally the opposite of group think in audio), very good recommendations for beginners as well, lots of resources and info on the sidebar. The simple fact that objective measurements are widespread and that blind tests are supported and recommended makes this place the literal opposite of a group think community.
“Everyone's ears are different as are their desires and budgets”
/r/headphones is much more budget-oriented than the likes of communities like Head-Fi. I have absolutely no idea what you’re trying to prove using this statement against /r/headphones, they are budget-friendly and versatile.
in fact, in ALL audible differences, between ALL components, basic electrical properties create The Largest Single Difference in Sound.