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CEE_TEE
3480
Aug 15, 2018
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nebulouso
6
Keyboard Club Member
Aug 16, 2018
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CEE_TEEAny new runs of the original unbalanced SDAC?
cspirou
220
Aug 16, 2018
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CEE_TEEVery nice!
One question I have is if this is a fully balanced DAC with one DAC chip per channel? Or is this just balanced output with a se -> BAL conversion? I only saw one DAC chip listed so I don't know which.
Either way there is still a benefit.
One question I have is if this is a fully balanced DAC with one DAC chip per channel? Or is this just balanced output with a se -> BAL conversion? I only saw one DAC chip listed so I don't know which.
Either way there is still a benefit.
HannaBanana
9
Aug 16, 2018
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cspirouThe fact that we aren’t getting a clear response to this might mean that it isn’t “fully balanced” just one DAC chip total, not one per channel.
CEE_TEE
3480
Aug 17, 2018
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JaggiHi Jaggi,
We have both balanced and unbalanced output. The DAC chip can output balanced even as a single chip.
I am waiting on a more technical explanation of how that is accomplished.
The USB 1.0 / USB 2.0 switch allows you to toggle between the USB modes. The Original SDAC is USB 1.0 and very easy to use. No drivers with either Windows or Mac. This new version can be switched into USB 2.0 mode for more resolution on PCM files and the addition of high resolution DSD files. In USB 2.0 mode, you can use without any special drivers if you have Windows 10 or Mac.
Expanding capability for those who would like to have it. More outputs, more inputs, more USB Modes for more file types and resolutions.
The USB 1.0 / USB 2.0 switch allows you to toggle between the USB modes. The Original SDAC is USB 1.0 and very easy to use. No drivers with either Windows or Mac. This new version can be switched into USB 2.0 mode for more resolution on PCM files and the addition of high resolution DSD files. In USB 2.0 mode, you can use without any special drivers if you have Windows 10 or Mac.
Expanding capability for those who would like to have it. More outputs, more inputs, more USB Modes for more file types and resolutions.
cspirou
220
Aug 17, 2018
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JaggiThe switch is probably the same as 'expert' mode for the Schiit Modi 2. It distinguishes between USB Audio Class 1 and USB Audio Class 2. UAC1 doesn't need any drivers while UAC2 needs drivers on certain Windows systems. UAC1 can only go to 24/96 where UAC2 can go up to 24/192(or higher?).
I would do USB2 and then switch if you have any issues.
Also the back has two XLR jacks, it's clearly balanced.
I would do USB2 and then switch if you have any issues.
Also the back has two XLR jacks, it's clearly balanced.
Jaggi
737
Aug 17, 2018
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CEE_TEEHi CEE_TEE
> We have both balanced and unbalanced output.
Yes I realise that, but the whole sentence (of which I only quoted part) makes it clear (at least to me!) that the part I quoted was supposed to refer to the unbalanced output:
"On the back panel, you’ll find a balanced output, three-pin XLR outputs, and a coaxial SPDIF digital input, which will allow the DAC to interface with balanced amplifiers and single-ended amplifiers at the same time."
Thanks for the explanation of the USB switch, although I must say it surprises me. I have a few USB 2 DACs, and I always assumed that they'd work in standard USB mode without needing a driver (or a switch!) I guess I've never put that to the test though...
> We have both balanced and unbalanced output.
Yes I realise that, but the whole sentence (of which I only quoted part) makes it clear (at least to me!) that the part I quoted was supposed to refer to the unbalanced output:
"On the back panel, you’ll find a balanced output, three-pin XLR outputs, and a coaxial SPDIF digital input, which will allow the DAC to interface with balanced amplifiers and single-ended amplifiers at the same time."
Thanks for the explanation of the USB switch, although I must say it surprises me. I have a few USB 2 DACs, and I always assumed that they'd work in standard USB mode without needing a driver (or a switch!) I guess I've never put that to the test though...
Deerjesus
24
Aug 17, 2018
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CEE_TEEIf using this coupled with the balanced input of the THX 789, will the THX only output via its balanced? Would like to know if this will then free up the unbalanced output of this SDAC to run to a speaker setup.
CEE_TEE
3480
Aug 17, 2018
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JaggiAh, thanks Jaggi: you were pointing out that we are missing the SE output mention for the back panel. Thank you! I'll work to get this added tomorrow.
We have the USB mode switch so that you know you can use this DAC even if you don't have a Windows version that easily/quickly supports USB 2.0. Glad you have not had any issues with USB 2.0 and I hope nobody will!
We have the USB mode switch so that you know you can use this DAC even if you don't have a Windows version that easily/quickly supports USB 2.0. Glad you have not had any issues with USB 2.0 and I hope nobody will!
horseman612
31
Aug 17, 2018
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CEE_TEE"The DAC chip can output balanced even as a single chip.
I am waiting on a more technical explanation of how that is accomplished."
Unless this is a different chip with essentially 4 DACs instead of 2 (L/R, +/-, if a quality DAC chip like that exists I'm not aware of it) the only way to do that is by phase-splitting the chip's unbalanced output. That gives you a balanced output but does NOT make this a balanced DAC, and IMO does not provide much benefit in a home audio setting. This arrangement gives you XLR's noise rejection over long cable runs but does not give you the sonic benefits of fully separate + and - signal paths (which have to start at the source to provide much benefit other than the noise rejection.)
(ETA that I see now that it's an AK4452, a good chip but definitely a 2 channel one - if it's using only one of these, it must be phase splitting & cannot be a true balanced DAC.)
Unless this is a different chip with essentially 4 DACs instead of 2 (L/R, +/-, if a quality DAC chip like that exists I'm not aware of it) the only way to do that is by phase-splitting the chip's unbalanced output. That gives you a balanced output but does NOT make this a balanced DAC, and IMO does not provide much benefit in a home audio setting. This arrangement gives you XLR's noise rejection over long cable runs but does not give you the sonic benefits of fully separate + and - signal paths (which have to start at the source to provide much benefit other than the noise rejection.)
(ETA that I see now that it's an AK4452, a good chip but definitely a 2 channel one - if it's using only one of these, it must be phase splitting & cannot be a true balanced DAC.)
db42
81
Aug 17, 2018
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horseman612I'm actually also curious about this. Looking at the data sheet for the AK4552, even though it's only 2 channels, it seems it does output both a positive and negative signal for each channel. It also claims that the outputs are fully differential and must be summed externally. So while it wouldn't make this DAC dual mono, it could still be balanced. Hopefully, this is the path they went with this DAC, otherwise, if it is indeed phase-split, then I don't see how it would be any better than attaching the single ended SDAC to an amp that does it's own phase-splitting on the single ended inputs (I'm no engineer so please correct me if I'm wrong with any of the above). I'm more concerned about the lack of optical input. My whole audio setup is at my desk with my PC and in an effort to eliminate as much chance for interference from all my equipment and wifi as possible from my audio chain I try to use optical to my dacs. Hopefully an optical equipped version could be in the cards (any input on this @CEE_TEE )
Keth
760
Aug 17, 2018
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horseman612So essentially there's zero reason to switch from the https://www.massdrop.com/buy/26776 I already have, for desktop monitor usage. An integrated passive preamp would have served powered monitor users much better.
mastershake
376
Aug 19, 2018
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CEE_TEEhow about these sdacs in a chassis matched to the other massdrop ones? i would be way more inclined to buy and wait if this was in a matching chassis. also id like to know as others have asked if this is truly balanced or does it use phase splitting or how does it achieve balanced? this would have been awesome for my office to sit with the second cth and lcx i have there but im just not crazy about the odd form factor compared to those. ill also add please do what you once did and make us aware of upcoming products in this lineup so people dont get pissed because they bought a combo product thinking nothing else was coming but they really wanted separate components and now this comes along etc etc. im all about grabbing everything up till now in your lineup but im torn on this one. matched in a chassis would have been insta buy for a lower priced dac.
Fayne
2586
Aug 19, 2018
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mastershakeThe data sheet for the AK4452 shows full differential (balanced) output. Exact text for such can be found on page 83. I'm not entirely sure if they're doing any funny stuff (phase-splitting) inside the chip to generate the differential out.
https://www.akm.com/akm/en/file/datasheet/AK4452VN.pdf
I'd also like to see this in a chassis that matched the LCX, CTH, and THX instead of the current box. Dead space is perfectly fine in a box, just make it stack with the others.
https://www.akm.com/akm/en/file/datasheet/AK4452VN.pdf
I'd also like to see this in a chassis that matched the LCX, CTH, and THX instead of the current box. Dead space is perfectly fine in a box, just make it stack with the others.
Pierre111
413
Aug 21, 2018
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FayneNot debating if this DAC is Balanced or not, but full differential output doesn't mean the same as balanced. It just mean that the signal is appearing twice with an inverted polarity, now this can be used to output a balanced signal but the rest of the circuit matters
Fayne
2586
Aug 21, 2018
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Pierre111If you have full differential output coming off the chip it'd be incredibly stupid to rectify it into single ended configuration then phase-split it back out. Seeing there is no amp circuitry, I highly doubt they are doing this.
That said, it is a valid question. A bit more information than 'we used this chip' and 'it is balanced' would be nice, for sure.
That said, it is a valid question. A bit more information than 'we used this chip' and 'it is balanced' would be nice, for sure.
Pierre111
413
Aug 21, 2018
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FayneI'm not debating the fact that it's a balanced unit, but the DAC recieve a digital signal by channel, and output 2 copy of the same signal, one being phase reversed, that's all it does, it's not doing "funny stuff like phase splitting" Differential output DAC chips are used in single ended designs all the time, in fact the vast majority of top tier DAC chips have differential out and the vast majority of the design using these chips are single ended. There are numerous reason to have common mode rejection between the DAC output and the next stage in the design, in this case a line level driver, but it absolutely don't mean that the design is balanced. Some use the chips in full differential mode, some in pseudo differential, and some use these 2 outputs to build a balance design just wanted to clarify that this is not the same
CEE_TEE
3480
Aug 22, 2018
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Pierre111We have confimation from AKM that there is one data stream from the modulator which is fed to the switched capacitor output filter acting as a phase splitter into balanced output.
JeremyP
45
Aug 23, 2018
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CEE_TEESo can someone tell us how this confirmation from AKM relates to the use of the "dual channel" DAC for full differential output?
From my (rather ignorant) reading of this, it sounds like the DAC chip is outputting what is essentially a single-ended signal and then it is being split out into (psuedo?) balanced signal after that point. Is this a correct reading of this?
From my (rather ignorant) reading of this, it sounds like the DAC chip is outputting what is essentially a single-ended signal and then it is being split out into (psuedo?) balanced signal after that point. Is this a correct reading of this?
Pierre111
413
Aug 23, 2018
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JeremyPIf I may, i didn't want to create a whole debate and it seems to confuse people, in effect I was just pointing that the differential output of the DAC chip doesn't tell any info if the output of the unit is Balanced or not. In fact it doesn't matter either they use both output to create a symmetrical and impedance matched pair to ground (a balance signal). The unit is not a preamp, not an amp, it's the very first stage of the analog audio chain so if the output is balanced it's a balanced DAC. the differential output of a dac chip matters if you connect it to something after it with a differential input A balanced output is different and it's not less balanced or pseudo balanced, it's balanced, regardless if they use both output of the chip or one. We can debate if something is truely a balanced design if it has analog inputs and outputs, we can then debate if the signal stays symmetrical troughout, if a XLR connector has just been put there for convenience, etc. but in this case it's just an output. You may be interested to know if they indeed used both polarity inverted output of the chip or if they used used a switched capacitor but there is not one method that is less balanced than the other. It's the very begining of a chain in a balanced configuration, and this balanced signal in all case is being generated after the chip. I was just pointing out that checking if the chip has differential output is not the right argument to say this DAC is fully balanced. In fact it can only be fully balanced or not at all.
H_COW
54
Jul 25, 2019
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CEE_TEENow that the AAA-789 has the awful 'drop' logo in the front, it no longer matches the look with this DAC.
Is not only that the logo was added, it is a bold font and the THX AAA 789 got relocated in a line instead of the nice 3 lines that match the rest of (mass)drop built products.
rslatara
287
Jul 29, 2019
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horseman612So it's pseudo balanced? Are you sure it is a 2 channel, I read it was 8.
CEE_TEE
3480
Jul 30, 2019
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rslataraFrom Michael Grace's reply in the first discussion post:
BALANCED LINE OUTPUTS
The AK4452 DAC uses switched capacitor output filters (following the delta sigma modulator) which provide an inherently balanced signal at the output pins. From here, the balanced signal is sent to a fully differential output filter/driver amplifier. This amplifier has differential inputs and balanced outputs. Specifically this circuit is a fully differential multiple feedback 2nd order low pass filter with a Bessel response and a corner frequency of 100kHz. The fact that it is fully differential guarantees that the positive and negative phases leave the box with almost perfect amplitude matching (around +/-0.002dB). The Bessel response is chosen for the best phase response. The balanced outputs have a 300 Ohm output impedance (150 Ohms per leg) and produce exactly 2x the output voltage of the unbalance outputs at 4.34Vrms in to a 100k Ohm load. The unbalanced line outputs on the 3.5mm stereo jack operate simultaneously to the balanced outputs and put out 2.17Vrms in to a 100k Ohm load. All inputs and outputs feature robust ESD (electrostatic discharge) production.
A note on balanced vs. unbalanced signals: First of all, there is no inherent difference in fidelity between a balanced and an unbalanced signal. Under ideal conditions both signals can carry identical information. It is the factors of the real world where there we can differentiate (pardon the term!) between the two. As many probably already know, balanced line signal transmission with a differential receiver can reject common mode noise. The amount of rejection is known as the common mode rejection ratio (or CMRR). An unbalanced interface is prone to noise caused by ground potential differences between a DAC and a downstream device. This can be caused, for instance, by a setup where a computer is connected to a DAC via USB, the DAC is then connected to an amplifier, and that amplifier is connected to earth ground. If the computer is also connected to earth ground then you have a ground "loop" and current will flow through the audio cable ground between the DAC and amp causing noise. A balanced interface can reject that noise but the design of the balanced driver and receiver circuitry can cause degradation to the signal in the form of distortion and amplifier noise. So you see there is no black and white way to evaluate whether balanced is better or worse in a given setup. Ideally the DAC would have a galvanically isolated (ground isolated) USB interface which would break the "loop". Galvanically isolated USB is expensive and unfortunately not in the budget for the SDAC. So in this case, if there is going to be a potential for a ground loop, a well designed balanced interface can really help. The CMRR of the receiving device will determine how well it will reject noise.
Hope that helps!
rslatara
287
Sep 10, 2019
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CEE_TEEEDIT: This is a no frills straight up device and I think that is why it works as there are no remotes or extra filters to mess up the sound. It's transparent with a leaning to analytical without being overly cold. It goes good with the 789 and LCX. The LCX also comes to life with the extra gain from the balanced inputs, so if you have an LCX and are let down by the SE then this is what you need.
I have found amps like the LCX-SDAC combo and Jotunheim with 4490 are for convenience and actually are not as good as even a good RCA DAC in. Then the XLR DAC is again superior than the RCA for the extra power at the very least.
Thankfully Grace must have some talented and experienced designers on hand to bring us this little black marvel.
(Edited)
ZedPotts
51
Dec 18, 2020
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horseman612Has anyone measured the two against each other and evaluated them for differences?
ZedPotts
51
Dec 18, 2020
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Pierre111Question: do you think this DAC will serve better than the 90$ single-ended drop + grace DAC running into my Teac HA-501?
FlacAttack
14
Sep 11, 2021
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cspirouI thought it was supposed to have support for UAC-1 when I bought it, but I’ve tried switching to use with PS5 and it’s not recognized at all.
FlacAttack
14
Sep 12, 2021
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CEE_TEEIs the USB switch meant to switch between UAC-1/UAC-2 modes?
FlacAttack
14
Sep 12, 2021
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FayneThen why is it not detected by the PS5, when they’ve confirmed that UAC-1 DACs are supported? Also, why is the switch labeled “USB-1/USB-2”?
CEE_TEE
3480
Sep 12, 2021
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FlacAttackYes but you may need to power the DAC through the USB with a 5V 1A plug into the wall if USB-2. Then use optical into PS5 if PS5 has optical output. That may be one way to do it. USB 2 can require more power than USB 1 or PS5 USB may not be powered.
FlacAttack
14
Sep 12, 2021
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CEE_TEERunning optical is not a solution to the question I asked. The DAC is powered, so I’m not sure why USB power would be needed. Are you familiar with this DAC and/or the PS5, or are you just pulling random suggestions from a hat?
cspirou
220
Sep 12, 2021
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FlacAttackHave you tried USB-1 with any other devices? Also have you tried other UAC-1 DACs with the PS5?
not too familiar with the PS5 but maybe there's something in the menu that need to be configured
FlacAttack
14
Sep 12, 2021
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cspirouBoth USB modes work fine with PC and I have a UAC-1 DAC/amp unit that works with PS5. There are no options for any of that, it’s just plug and play.
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What excites me about this one: -People are going to love the USB connector :) -Small enough to be very compatible with many different system set-ups -How it looks on top of our THX or LCX amps -All the stuff crammed into that back panel…making the dual 3-pin XLR fit! -Coax SPDIF option (great for CD players or USB-to-SPDIF converters) -USB 2.0 to support more filetypes, very high resolution -Great for output into powered speakers while using digital volume control on your computer
I just keep checking out the back: