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AudioAlchemy
9
Aug 3, 2017
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So just a quick question. Which headphones should I get, the Massdrop x HIFIMAN HE4XX or the Massdrop x AKG K7XX Red Edition? https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x-akg-k7xx-red-edition
I can only afford one or the other, so what do you guys think is the better choice? I appreciate any input and advice you can share.
Thanks!
Aug 3, 2017
aames
24
Aug 3, 2017
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AudioAlchemyThe K7xx are the K702 with a slight bass boost (which is welcome in my opinion - it's only 3db). Massdrop have sold over 15k of them and there have only been a handful of complaints, none of which have been about the sound quality as far as I know. I bought the K7xx a year ago now and my only complaint with it is the long cable and the mini-xlr adaptor (you can get a shorter cable on ebay for about 20 bucks if it bothers you), other than that I've found them to be fantastic at reproducing pretty much all types of music.
There is only 1 review of the HE4xx so far, and while it's encouraging (the tl;dr of the review over at superbestaudiofriends is - they're planars, they don't suck) - it's still only 1 review.
For my money if I could only buy 1 pair it'd be the AKGs right now - they're extremely comfortable, they can be powered by a phone pretty easily and they give a great soundstage.
Aug 3, 2017
AudioAlchemy
9
Aug 3, 2017
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aamesI do own a pair of Sennheiser HD650's, so should I still go with the K7xx? And do you know if you can get a balanced cable for the K7xx?
Thank you aames for your advice and reply.
Aug 3, 2017
aames
24
Aug 3, 2017
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AudioAlchemyIf you have the HD650s then you might want to save your money altogether. Law of diminishing returns kicks in with both the k7xx and the he4xx in this case - as you already own a very fine pair of headphones that most people's ears won't be good enough to pick out flaws with.
I would caution that you shouldn't be drawn in by the fact that the he4xx is planar either as it doesn't have the typical bass frequency response curve that something like the mrspeakers aeon has.
But if you're looking for something to spend $200 on then don't let my opinion stop you :)
As for balanced cables? Not unless you mod, the mini-xlr for the k7xx uses 3 pins, not 4.
Aug 3, 2017
AudioAlchemy
9
Aug 3, 2017
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aamesthank you aames. Is there a headphone drop that is active right now that you would recommend? (Sorry for asking so many questions, but you really seem to know what you are talking about)
Aug 3, 2017
SeT9
40
Aug 3, 2017
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AudioAlchemyIf you already have the hd6xx, it will probably win on everything above the bass. If this is based on the he400i like it seems, then they should be pretty close in quality, but the he4xx will have better planar bass. If you have the budget and you haven't tried a planar before this would be a good option. Look up the super best audio friends measurements, they will be more accurate than what is shown here. Bass should be good down to 30hz.
Aug 3, 2017
Z0d1Ac
251
Aug 3, 2017
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AudioAlchemyHave not heard either, but the HE4XX should work without an amp while I know the K7XX need an amp to power them.
So I would go with the HE4XX, plus they are planar and I saw two other reviews so far (other than the one your finding here) and they are a really great buy at $170. They will probably sound neutral like HD 600 and tweaked a little to sound like the HD 6xx.
Aug 3, 2017
Mr.Belding
43
Aug 3, 2017
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AudioAlchemy AKG K7XX is the better choice. If you really want planar then wait for the Fostex T-X0 drop.
And the HD650 you already own is the best choice.
Spend the money you have on a good dac/amp or dont spend it at all.
Aug 3, 2017
Alpiney
3
Aug 3, 2017
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AudioAlchemyIMO don't bother. I've never been very impressed with the K7XX - it sits on my headphone shelf barely ever touched. I have the HD600 and I had the 400i and both were superior to the K7XX. What you have already is good enough.
Aug 3, 2017
gardibolt
11
Aug 3, 2017
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aamesYou do need a serious amp with the 7XX; my portable Fiio E11K couldn't get much out of them. I picked up a supercheap ($67) but much more powerful little SMSL SAPii headphone amp last week and that makes them sound really terrific. I've been listening daily with them for hours and am finally very happy indeed with the 7XX. Unfortunately that amp is not portable, but I'm guessing that the Fiio A5 ($129) can do the job if you need a portable---people say it drives the Sennheiser HD650 well and that's got a much higher impedance than the 7XX (300 vs 72 ohms).
In any event, I'm a bit leery of the 4XX. I have the HiFiMan 400S and they're wonderful; I love them for classical music and they're super easy to drive straight out of a source without an amp. Natural sound that feels the closest to a live performance that I've been able to find. I also tried the HiFiMan/Massdrop HE350 last year for $99 and those were terrible headphones, with mushy sound plus they were very uncomfortable. Which way will the 4XX go? I have no idea. The low price point kind of worries me as to what they may be skimping on. But I'm very happy with the 400S so I'm not exactly a motivated buyer and YMMV. If it's a clone of the 400i, which seems to be the case, it may well be a great deal.
Aug 3, 2017
BeyondMaxPower
202
Aug 3, 2017
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Mr.BeldingIMO the HD650/HD6XX are terrible headphones. No deep bass, all mid bass, rolled off highs. They are not HiFi in the slightest. I own 8 full sized headphones, 5 IEMs, driven by a $2,000 amp and Schiit Modi Multibit or Creative Sound Blaster X7 with highly upgraded op amps. I despise the HD6XX, and at meets I've heard them with several different DACs and amps, balanced and SE. They're terrible, sloppy is a good word. My opinion is not common, but with 30 years into this hobby, I was extremely disappointed with the HD6XX/HD650.
Aug 3, 2017
KaneDWilliams
46
Aug 3, 2017
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Z0d1AcMy K7XX sound decent from the output of my Macbook Pro and ok from an iPhone, although the level from the phone is not that loud, but I don't listen to can loud anyway. Through an amp they are better, but I would not say they "need" one.
Aug 3, 2017
KTMD
195
Aug 3, 2017
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BeyondMaxPowerJust curious, have you tried the 650s with a tube amp? I have some Schiit and a LE Creative X7 and I would not run the 650s with either of those. The X7 isn't great, for gaming sure, but that's it.
Aug 3, 2017
Vigrith
4081
Aug 3, 2017
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BeyondMaxPowerI'm sorry to be the barer of bad news but your opinion is categorically wrong. They are very good headphones which you happen to not like/appreciate which is absolutely fine.
My primary chain is Tidal through JRiver/ROON wasapi USB > Schiit Eitr > Schiit Yggdrasil > Pathos Aurium/Zana Deux S/Black Widow/Mjolnir 2/Jotunheim (etc) into a bunch of different headphones, with the 6XX being the cheapest within my collection. There's plenty of deep rumbling bass, the highs are definitely not rolled off and there is barely any of the (in)famous "veil".
Is it the best pair of headphones out there? No. The best headphones I own? No. Are they amazing? Yes. Are they for everyone? No. They scale very well and with a 2 grand amp + an MB DAC you should be able to tell, if you can't then you know, shit happens, everyone has different ears on them and that's part of why this hobby is fun.
"despising" a pair of headphones seems a little too extreme, especially when they're as well regarded (and for good reason, as said) as the 650s.
Aug 3, 2017
trybeingarun
137
Aug 3, 2017
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AudioAlchemyWait it out if you can. Let a few buyers post their reviews. Hifiman doesn't seem to have the best reputation when it comes to QC. So, even if the initial reviews about sound are decent you still wouldn't know a thing about durability. I have a K7xx myself. It's pretty good, esp. for movies and pop music. It sometimes feels a little cold sounding (compared to HD6xx) so I don't like it for all music genres, even though it definitely doesn't do anything particularly bad though.
Aug 3, 2017
BeyondMaxPower
202
Aug 3, 2017
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VigrithWell I have far more experience in this hobby than the vast majority, and deep rumbling bass, they absolutely do NOT have, unless you call mid bass actual bass. There is absolutely no sub bass at all. The bass that is there is sloppy compared to most of my headphones, other Sennheiser headphones I own have the same issue. Highs are ABSOLUTELY rolled off, and that is common knowledge. They are mid centric headphones, great for vocals, but nothing else IMO. Most confuse 80-150hz peaks as deep bass, but it isn't.
When young people rave about them, it tells me they have little experience with good audio (most have no serious 2 channel system, and own very few headphones, most entry level stuff). They are good for certain music types, but I own far better choices for the music I enjoy. I am going to mod them, as they are useless to me in their current state.
I'd bet many would prefer this drop over the HD6XX. All I'm saying is HD650 is overhyped, and when people say they don't like them, it's always get better upstream gear. I've heard the HD650 with some of the best headphone amps in existence, including the fabled Bottlehead Crack with Speedball, Auralic Taurus MKII, MicroZOTL2 (which I own, tricked out with very good NOS tubes and LPS), most of the Schiit amps, DIY acclaimed designs, etc. DACs from the Yggy down to $100 ones. Believe me, I've tried everything to get the most out of them, they just bring nothing special, except for vocals and acoustic music. They have their place, they aren't terrible, but it's my worst purchase in audio in a very long time. I also prefer a more typical V or U shape frequency response, HD650 are the opposite of that preference.
Aug 3, 2017
needhelp
331
Aug 3, 2017
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BeyondMaxPowerget hd700, you will love it.
Aug 3, 2017
BeyondMaxPower
202
Aug 3, 2017
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needhelpI've heard it, but not in the best environment. I did like them more, HD800 was ok, if I listened to classical or jazz far more, I'd be interested, but probably in the upgraded HD800S.
I'll most likely be buying the Smyth Research A16 next month, and it was designed around the HD800. I'll obviously try all the headphones I currently own first, and the HEX V2 may be just fine. Really want to try some bass heavy cans like the TH-X00 Ebony or M1060s I already own. HEX actually has really good bass as well, with a huge soundstage. I'm very happy with my headphones at the moment, they are definitely on the end of the list for upgrades. Hopefully I'll be going to a meet in a month or so. One is smaller and much easier to deal with noise. The other is in December, far larger with over 35 tables setup, and every piece of gear you could imagine. No shortage of meets in Philly, and that doesn't include the home theater meets I also love to attend.
Aug 3, 2017
Vigrith
4081
Aug 3, 2017
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BeyondMaxPowerFirstly, regarding the highs you do have a point - I should've reworded that part but didn't so that's on me. The highs are rolled off for sure yea, I just personally do not see that as a bad thing but when it comes to pin point accuracy I can see how it is regarded as a flaw. And it is a flaw, there's no way around that and explaining it away isn't gonna do anyone any favours, it's just an imperfection I (and many others) tend to actually enjoy.
I also agree that their "flaws" or imperfections should not be chalked up to "get better gear" - some people don't like the 650s, some people like the 800s which I absolutely abhor (and own because they are a microscope and good for testing changes in the stream) and that's perfectly fine. They're a polarising pair of headphones and I'll actually also give you the fact that they're overhyped.
They definitely deserve praise in my book and I've stated before here and in many other places they're one of if not my favourite headphones (not favourite sounding). For desktop use I own LS50s which are fed by a competent amp and I have Devialet Phantoms in my living room, I'm absolutely not the best versed person when it comes to 2 channel gear on like Focal Grand Utopia level gear but to me speakers and headphones are two completely different things - if I want speaker sound, I listen to speakers, I don't need subwoofers on my head nor do I want HD800 soundstage when I have headphones on.
I disagree that they're only well regarded by younger people though, I have plenty of friends and acquaintances both online and otherwise who regard the 650s very highly and are 45+ years old. They're good headphones no matter how badly you think they sound or how boring they may be to some, with most genres of music despite shining with acoustic tracks and vocals as you stated.
They're relaxed and warm headphones and many see that as just straight up bad and inaccurate but as said, this hobby is so subjective that your ruling and preference does not apply to everybody. In this particular case you are in the vast minority and that cannot just be explained away by "no, you guys are incompetent millennials with no experience, they're bad for real". They don't even measure badly, of course they won't beat a grand + headphones produced nowadays especially considering they're like 20 years old now but still, comparisons like that are unfair and unrealistic in my opinion.
Aug 3, 2017
BeyondMaxPower
202
Aug 3, 2017
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VigrithI think one reason people love them is because they are a very relaxed, warm Headphone. You can listen for hours and they are very comfortable, light, and don't have issues in the upper ranges, especially beyond 5Khz. They're gentle on the ears, sound wise. Any age group would love this quality. It's when a literally 20yr old tells me they're better than some serious cans, I laugh. Not all happy HD650 owners, are young, and I didn't mean to imply that. Sorry if that's how it sounded.
I will mod them very soon, as a very trusted person I know, sent me the mod he absolutely loves (we have very similar views on our sound preference). Just need the time.
I went from a huge house with a home theater, to a small apartment in Philadelphia. I've become addicted to headphones for movies and gaming. Music listening from time to time (usually 2 channel during the day with no neighbor issues). At night, I do at times want a speaker on my head sound, and amazingly you can get it. Details with headphones are far easier heard than any speaker system (95% aren't hardcore with sound like I am). My theater setup could play at 122-125 decibels without distortion. It was unreal, and guests would freak out how great it was. At normal listening levels, movies felt real. So most of my listening would suck with the HD650s. For music they can be alright, if I wasn't for other cans I own, they could get far more usage. Hopefully this mod really clears them up like I've read.
Aug 3, 2017
larrymichii
57
Aug 3, 2017
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VigrithThey sound muffled. :). Actually only own the HD600 but they sound muffled to me. It might come down to personal taste and also level of hearing loss depending on age group. Someone who is 20 has excellent hearing so they might not perceive them as muffled as someone my age in their 40's. However, my 14 year old nephew thinks they sound muffled too so who knows.
Aug 3, 2017
Vigrith
4081
Aug 3, 2017
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larrymichiiUnderstandable - that's a commonly brought up issue with the 6xx line, and I agree to a certain extent; I don't think they sound muffled with the gear I feed them but they don't have the clarity, sparkle, separation or spaciousness (not necessarily soundstage) other headphones do; that's why headphones like the HD800, HE-1000 and Focal Utopia exist, those sound super open, clear as day and ethereal and that's perfectly fine, I'd buy Utopias if I could and that's why I keep my 800s around even though I don't actually enjoy listening to music through them.
Just comes down to preference really, only reason I felt like I should offer a different point of view was because I think saying they're bad is just unfair regardless of whether or not one likes their sound signature - I don't think overhype and bandwagon behaviour can explain away the thousands on thousands of pages of praise in the 650 thread on every audio related forum board I frequent/know of. In my mind they are objectively good headphones despite their shortcomings 20 years post launch and when compared to other ones that cost x or y times as much.
Aug 3, 2017
Mr.Belding
43
Aug 6, 2017
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BeyondMaxPowerWhat is your recommendation for the best open headphones for under the 200 dollars?
You are the pro here with te most experience. So i will definitely buy them instantly. And AudioAlchemy also.
Aug 6, 2017
BeyondMaxPower
202
Aug 6, 2017
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Mr.BeldingI know you're being sarcastic, but it depends entirely on your sound preference. Best under $XXX doesn't exist really. What I or anyone else prefer, you may hate. We all hear differently from each other. Plenty of options in each price range.
Aug 6, 2017
Mr.Belding
43
Aug 6, 2017
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BeyondMaxPowerAudioAlchemy asked us which headphones to recommend around 200 dollar. I think the HD6XX is the best option. You than said it was the wrong choice. But you didn't come with a better option. So please do. I think everyone is exited which one you will recommend us.
Aug 6, 2017
BeyondMaxPower
202
Aug 6, 2017
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Mr.BeldingHonestly if I was in the market for a headphone in the $200 range, I would be ALL over the 4XX drop. Planar drivers are really special, and present music in a wonderful way. I may get in this drop just to mod the heck out of it. For me, $169 is throw away money. If I break it, oh well. Stock they should sound really good, but after modding my Monoprice M1060 and getting great results, I'm tempted to try these and see what they can do.
AKG K7XX is another choice at $200 that is an awesome gaming headphone. Decent bass, big soundstage, gentle sound. Easy listening.
The Beyerdynamic DT770 (closed), DT880 (semi open, most neutral of this line), or DT990. EQ can really help take the highs a tad. Great bass and mid bass. Great immersive gaming headphone. All of these are under $200 and are a solid choice. There are plenty more, these are just a few with different sound qualities that may meet your expectations well.
Aug 6, 2017
ProfessorPat
380
Aug 8, 2017
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BeyondMaxPowerWhat have you done to the M1060? I've yet to touch mine. Seems they should be capable. There's definitely some potential in there that they're not fully using in stock form.
I was looking at the HE400i and the M1060 both back when I bought mine, so I'm interested in what may be, in some capacity at least, a cheaper 400i, to add to the collection. If my 1060s mod well, the HE4xx should be pretty much the same in terms of potential. Most open planars are pretty simplistic in their design. Even more reason to check these out if the mods are worthwhile.
Aug 8, 2017
LMAONAISE
147
Aug 27, 2017
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aamesJust got a good DAP (fiio x5 iii) and the tempatation to buy a short cable for my k7xx was easily remedied with some braiding. Just throwing it out there as my wallet cries in the corner and I browse massdrop.
Aug 27, 2017
Joeclu
0
Dec 2, 2017
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BeyondMaxPowerWould like your opinion of the HE400i
Dec 2, 2017
BeyondMaxPower
202
Dec 2, 2017
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ProfessorPatHonestly, go to Head-fi. M1060 thread is active as hell. You'll get the information you need.
Dec 2, 2017
KaneDWilliams
46
Dec 3, 2017
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BeyondMaxPowerYou know, if we all started to use calibrated headphones such as the Nura's then we would all be hearing pretty much the same thing. If people all making music also started using calibrated headphones and speakers to mix/master on, this means we would all be hearing pretty much exactly what they intended. Now, this may not be ideal for some, as we have personal tastes as well as personal hearing, so you may hear exactly what they heard in the studio but actually want more bass than they wanted! I however, would love it if every pair of headphones and speakers/monitors would be calibrated to out own hearing, so we do have a universal reference.
Dec 3, 2017
Surfinsam
50
Feb 11, 2019
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KaneDWilliamsThere's a reason NS10s are in almost every big studio
Feb 11, 2019
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