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mikro
25
Aug 26, 2017
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I like the way they look but using hot glue to keep very strong magnets in place is killing me. 400S and 400I do the same thing I think.
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Aug 26, 2017
tessierpg
Aug 26, 2017
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mikroMaybe it has to do with keeping the distorsion low
Aug 26, 2017
mikro
25
Aug 26, 2017
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tessierpgTo me it looks more like an effort to keep the manufacturing cost low. One has to wonder about the longevity of that kind of solution.
I have seen other orthodynamic headphones where they put metal frame or plate to keep the magnets in place and properly aligned.
Essentially, that is the only thing keeping me from buying this one.
Aug 26, 2017
chrolls
11
Aug 27, 2017
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mikroU sure the 400s and i do this too? I quicksearched on Google and only came up with them using glue for some of their earpads. Don't know how I didn't notice that in the picture b4, I'm kinda down now :(
Aug 27, 2017
maximumsid
49
Aug 27, 2017
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mikroIs this really that big of a deal for people that they cancel them? If 400i and 400s do the same thing and we haven;t heard longevity issues on forums then I guess it isn't a problem.
Aug 27, 2017
mikro
25
Aug 27, 2017
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Aug 27, 2017
mikro
25
Aug 27, 2017
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maximumsidThat was the only reason for me not to buy them. That glue looks sloppily applied, most likely by hand. I have seen the picture where it looks like it leaked on the membrane itself.
As far as longevity goes, maybe that is some kind of super-duper glue that will outlast the owners. But I just don't like the idea of glue keeping magnets in place.
Although, price is relatively low, so it might be acceptable for some. Same thing in $400 phones is just silly.
Aug 27, 2017
tessierpg
Aug 27, 2017
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mikroMaybe it's a safer bet to buy the HE400i directly from Hifiman's site @ 249$... It's 80$ more however...
Aug 27, 2017
mikro
25
Aug 28, 2017
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tessierpgI would buy it from here if you are considering 400i. It appears to be the same thing, but 4XX looks better and it is significantly cheaper.
Aug 28, 2017
Heefty
1387
Aug 30, 2017
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mikroWhat would you propose be used in its place?
Aug 30, 2017
ProfessorPat
380
Aug 31, 2017
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mikroPeople love to complain about glue...
A $100 guitar is garbage because it's plywood. Too much glue. A $8000 guitar is amazing despite the 13 layer laminated neck, the top and back laminates, and the fact that the body is made of 5 pieces of wood. There's glue everywhere in both designs, but one is well implemented, and the other cheaply implemented. At least, that's the argument.
Glue itself is a perfectly viable and often extremely appropriate method of mating things. In this application, it could very well be done to provide damping from the driver to the shell. It may be done to save money, but the alternative metal cages and fixed attachment points could have been introducing resonance or distortion that was unwanted and unavoidable without a more open attachment scheme.
Of course, these are all hypotheticals, and you may be entirely correct in assuming it to be a cost cutting measure. No reason to completely discount a method that has shown no signs of being more prone to failure than other designs though.
Aug 31, 2017
GrizzledGeezer
50
Aug 31, 2017
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ProfessorPatThe question isn't whether hot-melt glue is effective -- it's how long it will hold. It's not the best choice for metal. If, a few years down the line, it starts coming loose, there 's going to be hell to pay.
Aug 31, 2017
maximumsid
49
Aug 31, 2017
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GrizzledGeezerLet us consider that HiFiman has been manufacturing headphones for years, and is one of the most respected brands in audio, unless we have a complete blueprint of how these headphone are engineered, we won't know for sure if its only the hot glue that is holding the driver, we can't be sure about absence of other structural support for the drivers, or if the glue serves some other purpose, and if hot glue is really that bad of a choice. These headphones are also very light for planar magnetics. If their headphone haven't had negative reports about their longevity, I doubt that they are going to mess up with this product, let up not judge this product based on what we can see in a single image. Unless of course someone has a degree in material engineering along with the complete knowledge about the structure of these headphones.
Aug 31, 2017
GrizzledGeezer
50
Aug 31, 2017
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maximumsidAnd you know these things,...?
I wouldn't trust hot glue to hold anything metallic in place. HiFiman is obliged to explain why hot glue was chosen. Wanna know what HiFiman is going to say? "Don't ask. Our designs are proprietary."
Manufacturers often make mistakes, usually to cut cost. I just bought TOSlink cables that are not only difficult to insert correctly, but won't snap into place (as Toshiba-manufactured cables do). The retailer -- without even bothering to test its stock on hand -- said "Duh. Nobody else has complained."
Aug 31, 2017
Heefty
1387
Aug 31, 2017
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GrizzledGeezerOn the other hand, if it's simple hot glue, it's easy to replace if it does come loose.
Aug 31, 2017
GrizzledGeezer
50
Aug 31, 2017
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HeeftyYes... Assuming the glue provides no "structural reinforcement".
I have a Nitty Gritty Mini-Pro 2 record cleaner, with all sorts of internal plumbing . About 15 years ago, I discovered that the adhesive used to hold the tubes in place had hardened and fallen to pieces. (I don't remember what adhesive was used.) I had no trouble fixing it (I don't remember what I used). The point is that few things last forever -- especially adhesives.
Aug 31, 2017
Heefty
1387
Aug 31, 2017
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GrizzledGeezerThat's true, but hot glue is more of a melted plastic than an adhesive. It will wear out with time, but so will most anything. Hot glue also has the benefit of not containing the highly volatile compounds found in most adhesives and as such may last far longer than a typical adhesive.
It's hard to say what will happen in the future, but I'm guessing it will be long after the warranty has expired before the glue fails anyway, so I'm glad it's something I can easily repair.
Aug 31, 2017
ProfessorPat
380
Sep 1, 2017
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GrizzledGeezerLet's consider for a second here that what is essentially a hot melt glue is all that holds a Grado headphone together as well. Grado has been making headphones far longer than Hifiman has been around, and we don't see those falling apart. Whether it be wood, aluminum, or plastic, they seem to hold up just fine for decades.
Assuming they use a similar adhesive, I don't foresee any issues unless you're abusive, in which case who cares how it's built.
Sep 1, 2017
luger
130
Sep 1, 2017
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mikroLSHISMS...
looks like silicone, used for insulation and keeping fragile wires in place.
"golly, gomer - might them thar ppl be tryin to hold magnuts in place whit hot glue?"
seriously.
freakin' wow...
I.AM.SPEECHLESS.
thanks for the laff.
really.
Sep 1, 2017
luger
130
Sep 1, 2017
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GrizzledGeezer"HiFiman is obliged to explain why hot glue was chosen."
Yeah, they've only been building and selling orthodynamic headphones since 2009, they should be 'splainin' themselves to you. yep.
Hoo wee!! Best be askin' 'em bout the cyanoacrylates, 'cause I'm sure they done used some super glue too.
Etc, etcetera, etcetera. You got your manufacturing technology degree where, again?
Don't worry, stuff some toilet paper in the back and tack it in place with some surgical tape, and you'll have the latest and greatest Monoprice M1060 Mod. Why don't you just get them instead?
"I read it on the internet, so it must be true..."
Sep 1, 2017
GrizzledGeezer
50
Sep 1, 2017
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lugerI have a BS EE, and over 70 years, have learned how to analyze what works and what doesn't. Where's your degree?
"Always assume the worst." We have no idea what the adhesive HiFiman is using is, or what purpose it serves. Yet people are reflexively defending a company, just because someone has the gall to ask reasonable (and possibly embarrassing) questions. Buyers have the right to know what they're getting.
Sep 1, 2017
Heefty
1387
Sep 1, 2017
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GrizzledGeezerGo ask the Coca Cola company for their recipe then. Here's the vault door that they use to keep buyers from knowing what they're getting.
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And FYI, I'm not defending anyone, just asking a simple question. To be precise, my question is: What would you use in place of hot glue for this application?
Since you're so offended by it, perhaps you could suggest a way to make it more suitable for your tastes rather than decrying the injustice of not knowing every step in their manufacturing process. That goes to everyone who is on here whining about hot glue. I have seen 3-4 of you in this chain now. Not one of you has the ability to suggest something better?
Sep 1, 2017
GrizzledGeezer
50
Sep 1, 2017
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Heefty"And FYI, I'm not defending anyone, just asking a simple question. To be precise, my question is: What would you use in place of hot glue for this application?"
That's a fair and reasonable question. It can't be answered until we know what this glob of hot glue (or whatever it is) is used for. There might be an excellent purpose (such as damping). But it looks... odd.
Sep 1, 2017
escudo777
10
Sep 1, 2017
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GrizzledGeezerI understand your point.The only definite way to know for sure about the quality and type of the adhesive is by dismantling the headphone driver. I personally think the adhesive will be fine if you handle the headphones without too many mechanical shocks. Let us hope these headphones sound great and are durable.
Sep 1, 2017
GrizzledGeezer
50
Sep 1, 2017
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escudo777I have two Yamaha YHD-1 headphones, each at least 30 years old, and "a-working still". This shows that orthodynamic headphones can last a long time. I bought the HE4XX to get something "better", and expect them to last until I die. (I'm 70.)
Sep 1, 2017
escudo777
10
Sep 1, 2017
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GrizzledGeezerWe cannot compare a new Chinese headphone to a 30 year old Japanese headphone. Nowadays few companies stand for quality and durability. The thing is many people don't care about longevity of a product and this is what companies are exploiting by releasing "upgraded" models each year.
Sep 1, 2017
luger
130
Sep 1, 2017
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GrizzledGeezermine is in physics. i know what i know has nothing to do with manufacturing engineering. the ee's i know remember Norton and Thevenin, and it remains a joke while they let computers design the circuits and they price out the silicon. i work for a manufacturing company, we build cars. someone else builds the speakers that go into them. i don't tell the manufacturing people how to do their jobs, i'm sure they don't sweat bose over the minutiae involved in making their speakers, they rely on them to meet spec. nowadays i just help make sure the computers work for the engineers and support staff. if you don't like our cars, you can leave feedback, and buy something else.
HiFiMAN is owned and run by Dr. Fang Bian. "Fang Bian is quite young, and quite passionate about what he does. With a Master’s degree in Science from Nankai University (China) and a Ph.D. in Chemistry, with a sub-discipline in Nanotechnology and Materials from the City University of New York"
https://www.strata-gee.com/look-up-in-the-sky-its-a-bird-its-a-plane-its-hifiman/ (2012)
i bought his company's RE0 back in 2010, and it is still one of the most exceptional IEMs I've ever heard. one of the shells separated when I used too much force to remove some aftermarket ear tips. the other wasn't abused as badly. cyanoacrylate undid the damage. oops. they offered to swap them some five years after purchase, for a nominal fee. i kept them.
so, "people are reflexively defending a company" in part because they make extraordinary product. well, perhaps the HE-350 excluded... ;-)
you are claiming to have "the gall to ask reasonable (and possibly embarrassing) questions"?
the only embarrassment i see here is your own, sir.
Sep 1, 2017
GrizzledGeezer
50
Sep 1, 2017
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lugerThere is no embarrassment in asking good questions -- and that's what I know how to do. If you're a good scientist, you, also, know how to ask good questions. That's what science is about.
Sep 1, 2017
mikro
25
Sep 5, 2017
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maximumsidGlue quality is one thing we don't know about, but sloppy application we can observe. You can see in this 400i picture that one of the magnets is not covered and it may fall out as far as I can tell.

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Sep 5, 2017
chrolls
11
Sep 6, 2017
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mikro
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According to the he4xx thread on SBAF, these are the 560s, which brand new retailed for a few hundred bucks I think? Same glue, same application, right? We've also as much established the 400s, 400i, and now 4xx do the same thing. At this point I think its fair to assume pretty much all of HFMan's phones do this.
One question.
How in all the name that is holy has there not been an internet wide backlash to this yet? I mean, assuming even a somewhat bad failure rate (let alone a high rate) after a few years in the wild, so many different models sold, etc. wouldn't you expect there to be a crapload of results from me googling "hot glue Hifimans" to have to do with the magnet structure? If there's one thing I know about the internet, its that such scandals, if you will, rarely go unnoticed. If anything, many times they're blown out of proportion. So what's the deal?
That might be the best argument against what you're saying I guess, just the lack of evidence that plausibly woulda been there if you're right, but isnt. I suppose the best counterarguement would be that its just not been long enough for the complaints to start trickling in. Give it more time, say 5-6 years. Or maybe for this particular massdrop specimen, they used a different method to cut costs (note the seemingly more sloppily applied glue), and we all just bought a ticking time bomb. Oh well.
BTW, I blame you if this all goes sideways, I'll be agonizing about this until Christmas thanks to you! (Not really)
Sep 6, 2017
chrolls
11
Sep 6, 2017
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mikroHere's a link to that thread fwiw: http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/massdrop-x-hifiman-he4xx-measurements-and-impressions.4815/page-9
I posted a question about the glue near the bottom of the page and several people were kind enough to answer. Maybe you'll find it useful. Cheers!
Sep 6, 2017
mikro
25
Sep 6, 2017
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chrollsHere is example of what looks like hot glue leaking onto the membrane. I posted this also on SBAF in the thread you mentioned.
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Sep 6, 2017
chrolls
11
Sep 6, 2017
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mikroDang. Welp, its too late now anyway, so in the meantime I guess I'll just comfort myself with the possibility this won't happen. Whatever. Hopefully this is just an isolated case, and not a "pattern of behavior"...
Sep 6, 2017
luger
130
Sep 17, 2017
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chrollsNice thread in SBAF - now I know what that means! You can't even type that without getting BANNED from Head-Fi, I've been drinking their kool aid for so long... ;-) Anyway, funny that Audeze, who charge QUITE a bit more for several models, have a notoriously bad reputation for customer service there, and 'HFM' is profusely praised.
In truth, I'm a total junkie on my Koss ESP-950 electrostatics, and since adding a bass exciter to Foobar - for putting the dynamic speaker distortion back they are missing - I've got no good reason to buy an ortho, or another dynamic [have Senn and Beyer], for that matter. Still love my RE0 earbuds, they taught me that good engineering can yield musically convincing results, without blowing the bank. Thanks, Fang.
Returning to our examination of Theater of the Absurd - I really DID like the suggestion that a better adhesive can be made from Orca Semen. Totally worth the read...
Sep 17, 2017
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