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YossiAshkenazi
4
Sep 10, 2017
Looking for advice from the community: I joined the HIFIMAN HE4XX Planar Magnetic Headphones on Massdrop. I intend to use it in my office to listen to music stored on my desktop, mostly classical and jazz music. I'm looking for a reasonably priced DAC/AMP combo that would work well with these headphones. Thanks.
chancellorr
129
Sep 11, 2017
YossiAshkenaziHopefully you are the only one in this office, and what to you is "reasonably priced?"
YossiAshkenazi
4
Sep 11, 2017
chancellorrYes, I am the only one in this office... I guess in the range of USD 150-200
Jackula
1743
Sep 12, 2017
YossiAshkenaziThese are really inefficient planars @ 93dB sensitivity. You'll need all the power you can get to tame these beasts, for $200 the only option is probably a Schiit Modi+Magni combo. I generally don't recommend Schiit but there's nothing else in this price range that gives as much power.
YossiAshkenazi
4
Sep 12, 2017
JackulaThanks for the recommendation, but I live in Israel and it seems that the Schiit won't work with our 220 voltage.
maximumsid
49
Sep 12, 2017
YossiAshkenaziI am going to use these with Fiio E10K. I think it will be 'good enough' for these headphones, and it will of course drive them well because they are low impedance. It is the most recommended AMP+DAC at its price point, and unless someone tell you by experience that it is significantly worse than any other amp that you're gonna buy, I think it can be a good way to go, as it is also powered by USB of your PC or even Phone so voltages shouldn't be an issue.
YossiAshkenazi
4
Sep 12, 2017
maximumsidThanks, that's very helpful
Jackula
1743
Sep 12, 2017
YossiAshkenaziI think the Schiit Magni would work fine with 220v, you can select the power supply at checkout. Selecting the 230v power supply will let you take anything from 209v to 253v.
@maximumsid you do realise the Fiio E10K can only put 183mW into this headphone? You're going to get a lot of clipping distortion because it would run out of current and would drive the headphone into clipping. 183mW is less than 5% of ideal.
maximumsid
49
Sep 12, 2017
JackulaSo a headphone designed to work well with phones can't be driven by Fiio E10K, which is used by many people to even run their Sennheiser HD600? Seriously doubt that.
Jackula
1743
Sep 12, 2017
maximumsidThat's correct, the E10K can't run the HD600 without clipping either. They are just as power hungry as the HD6XX's and you'll want an amp that does 250mW at 300ohms for drive these without clipping distortion. Yes you'll get sound out of them, yes they will be loud enough, but are they being driven properly? No.
Neither headphones are designed to work well with phones. You can doubt all you want, but if you do the maths, the numbers won't match up.
Rob_v8
30
Sep 13, 2017
maximumsidI was in an audio store a few weeks ago to test HD600 with OPPO HA-1 on balanced conection and I had to set the volume pot past half for an acceptable audition. My advice, stop dreaming about E10K and HD600.
maximumsid
49
Sep 19, 2017
Rob_v8I am not saying that Fiio E10K is ideal pairing for HD600, but if you look on the internet, you'll find many people who run them with it. BUT that's not the point at all, the point is that if HD600 can be powered (even with clipping) by Fiio E10K, it should be able to EASILY power HE4XX, you can also find people running all other 400 models with a Fiio E10K so I don't see why HE-4XX would be an exception at 30-40 ohm (forgot the exact number).
Jackula
1743
Sep 19, 2017
maximumsidI don't know why you keep saying the He4xx is easy to drive. You either still don't understand, or don't care.
Let me make this clearer for you. The HD6XX has a sensitivity of 103dB, and a efficiency of 97dB. The He4xx has a sensitivity of 93dB and efficiency of 78dB. It is much harder to drive without clipping.
What makes it even worse is the current tilt, since it's of low impedance (only 35 ohms), it's very easy to get the volume required but you would be current capped because you won't be making full use of the voltage swing.
maximumsid
49
Sep 19, 2017
JackulaOkay, I didn't have the efficiency into consideration, I had only looked at the impedance, and the fact that they are advertising it as a headphone that can be run with smartphones. Wow that would be a bummer, because I have joined this drop, and only have Fiio E10K, which I had just bought to drive my HD598 and M50x (Didn't think I'll be getting a Hifiman). Time to look for an amp then I guess. Any suggestions for a good amp on the cheaper side? I plan to use Fiio E10K's DAC.
Jackula
1743
Sep 19, 2017
maximumsidThanks for agreeing, for a moment I thought you were being thick on purpose :)
Now that we're on the same page, let me explain the good news and what clipping means to a planar like the He4xx. Now that I re-read my previous posts, I realise I probably didn't have an appreciation of the output quality either as I didn't do any calculations. But based on my calculations, with the E10K outputting 183mW at 35ohms, the maximum volume you can get is about 91dB, this is higher than your average listening volume (I do hope so, sustained 85dB leads to hearing damage). So you're going to get clipping in two scenarios: 1) clipping of dynamics and 2) clipping of harmonics. However this doesn't take into account the current cap so potentially it could be worse.
For a dynamic transducer (like your 598 or M50) they tend to have a impedance bump in the mid-bass region (the hump on the HD6XX is almost double that of the headphone's rating), and clipping can make the sound muddy or loose. But for planars, they generally have a flat impedance response, you'll get a lot of clipping distortion with the E10K but clipping does not impact your sound that much, because your amp can provide a headroom above your average listening volume. Yes, you'll get an improvement with a better amp, but the scaling won't be night and day like a dynamic headphone.
My advice would be to keep the E10K for now but look into upgrading your amp in the future. Without anything else to compare to, it's really difficult to make the judgement "this sounds shit".
maximumsid
49
Sep 19, 2017
JackulaThanks for the detailed reply, I am not very experienced with headphone buying, and even though I am aware that sensitivity matters too, so far only looking at the impedance has worked out well enough.
Secondly, after re-reading your posts, I went to r/Headphones, and went to their AMP + Headphone combo calculator spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/191U0Q__6ieKyiKHI-_wTt-8j6wd2A3cpddE0_ieuxgI/edit#gid=0
After putting the specifications, it said that I can drive HE4XX at 102 dB (Fiio is 200mW @ 32 ohm). It also said that Fiio couldn't drive my earlier M20x [47 ohm, 97 dB sensitivity] (I think it considers 120 dB to be loud enough), but M20x was perfectly fine with phones and PC.
So I guess 102 dB is significantly beyond what is loud enough for me, I don't listen to headphones on high volume, as I have a small room in an apartment I (practically) live alone in, with a river outside, so I don't get environmental noise. I live in India, and very few amp/DAC brands are available here (only Fiio is easily and officially available), so 9/10 suggested amps are unavailable.
So again, I am very certain about 102 dB being more than loud enough (if that's the correct calculation, or even 91db should be 'enough' in my case). How much it impacts dynamics and harmonics will need to be seen (heard), and I'll keep looking for an amp in case it doesn't sound 'right'. Also, totally didn't know about the planar vs. dynamic impedance response, thanks for explaining that one. :)
Jackula
1743
Sep 19, 2017
maximumsidThat's the correct calculation. That spreadsheet uses VRMS to calculate the headroom, I tend to use power since not everyone publishes the VRMS. The equation is a bit different but they should arrive at the same number (101.06dB), so I admit I have substituted the wrong numbers. Plugging in the right numbers I got the same number as the spreadsheet.
The ideal headroom is actually 115dB, this is the reference level (though some people do prefer up to 120dB). The key thing to note is that the headroom is not the same as your listening volume. Your brain interprets the listening volume as an average volume over time, however even when you listen at, say, 80dB, some waveforms can push up to 115dB for a split second, but your brain combines all the soft and loud parts of a passage and works out the average volume from that. It really depends on the type of music you're listening to, i.e. if you're listening to Nightwish, there's not going to be much chance for clipping.
Most of the clipping you're going to experience are harmonics. Harmonics is associated with the timbre of an instrument, it's what makes a guitar sound different to the piano even when they are at the same pitch. Harmonics drop in amplitude over the frequency response, so when it clips it's hardly audible, but it affects the overall output from your headphones. You can think of it as something you don't hear directly, but affects the presentation of the sound you hear.
maximumsid
49
Sep 19, 2017
JackulaVery enlightening. Thanks again. :)
Rob_v8
30
Sep 20, 2017
BenGeldreich
35
Sep 20, 2017
JackulaThis discussion has been very useful! Thanks you for having it, I've learned a lot. I am planning on getting the o2/ SDAC combo when it comes out and wanted to check to see if it could power the HE4xx. After punching in the numbers into the Headphone calculator, my result was that the o2 can. power the HE 4xx up to 110dB. I can't imagine going louder than that for my ears, but if the ideal head room is 115dB then one would need a more powerful amp. Is that calculation right?
Jackula
1743
Sep 21, 2017
BenGeldreichAccording to NwAvGuy, 110dB should be good enough for most people, although 115dB is reference and 120dB are for some audiophiles.
I would trust whatever the calculator gives you, I ran my own maths against it and got the same result every time. If you really wanted 115dB, my calculations says you'll need 4,528mW, which is massive!
ProfessorPat
380
Sep 21, 2017
JackulaAssuming the numbers are correct, some of my best mastered music has peaks of something like 18dB above RMS levels. Assuming 80-85dB listening levels, 20dB is still 105dB at the absolute peaks. I think anything north of 105 is solid, with more headroom being great, so long as you're not freaking out about hitting 120+ numbers just for the sake of doing it.
That said though, where did we determine that these are 93dB/V? The spreadsheet calculator seems to imply that the HE400i is 93dB/mW. InnerFidelity's numbers show the HE4XX being harder to drive, but not so much that I could see them being almost 15dB/V less sensitive than what the sheet shows for the 400i. Hifiman is great about being useless here, only providing 93dB to go on, with no actual test method.
4.5W seems ridiculous to properly drive these though. If we assume Hifiman spec's these things /V, then you need over 28W to drive a HE6 to 115dB. I know they're inefficient, but...
Assume /mW and 8W drives a HE6 over 122dB. Much more believable.
Jackula
1743
Sep 21, 2017
ProfessorPatI wondered about their ratings myself, sensitivity is measured in /V while efficiency in /mW. So when I see the word "sensitivity" without any units defined I automatically think /V. A forum that I frequent also have people listing these as 93dB/V (can't say which forum as I value my privacy).
Personally, I like to use 118dB. Technically I'm really only interested in hitting 115dB, but if an amp gives a peak headroom of 115dB, it's going to have more distortion. Measurements I've seen generally show an exponential growth for distortion from roughly 50% of maximum output.
I believe NwAvGuy has done some testing that shows peaks reaching close to 115dB, but I'm not sure what volumes he played at. But he was well aware about the 85dB threshold.
ProfessorPat
380
Sep 21, 2017
JackulaMakes sense from a terminology standpoint, but I find it really difficult to imagine they're that ridiculously inefficient. Monoprice and Audeze's large planar drivers are both spec'd at better numbers /mW (both properly citing efficiency too though).
I know some of Hifiman's stuff has been notorious for being really inefficient, but their "efficient" models being that incredibly far behind everyone else is confusing. There's nothing "efficient" about sub-80 dB/V figures. And like I said, 28W to 115dB!?
Jackula
1743
Sep 21, 2017
ProfessorPatYou're right, it's confusing, they probably do have their terminologies mixed up then. I've seen it happen before, but they usually have the mW units defined. On HeadFi's product page for the HE6, they do list it as "Efficiency: 83.5 dB" (this means an sensitivity of 96.5dB/V), which is more efficient than 93dB/V, but still less efficient than 93/mW. 28W does seem hard to imagine, it's double of what my speaker amp can output, and it's at a much lower load.
ProfessorPat
380
Sep 21, 2017
JackulaHuh... hadn't even bothered to look at HeadFi. If that is correct regarding efficiency on the HE6, then it's pretty safe to assume they should all be efficiency rather than sensitivity as their site, and the info here, claim. The HE6 is undoubtedly harder to drive, as no one ever marketed that one as phone friendly.
Hopefully that is the case. It really shouldn't be a necessity to run 2W+ to get sufficient levels out of something being nearly pushed as portable.
Jackula
1743
Sep 21, 2017
ProfessorPat93dB/mW is a lot more efficient sure, but it's still not efficient enough to be phone powered (as how Massdrop markets it). So if indeed 93dB/mW, it would require 158.5mW to reach 115dB. It's probably just me, but for some reason it's hard to imagine 158mW can power a 35ohms planar. Considering the AKG K7XX needs 177mW at 62 ohms to get the same headroom.
ProfessorPat
380
Sep 21, 2017
JackulaPlanar drivers are certainly a lot more efficient than they were when Audeze and Hifiman first popped up. Not sure that it is, but it's definitely possible that we've pushed the design to much more usable efficiency levels.
Audeze and Monoprice specs have large planar drivers at 96-103 dB/mW. Hifiman has always been one of the less efficient options, but I can see 93 dB/mW being correct.
Acheron_NZ
1
Dec 30, 2017
maximumsidHey mate, how was your experience with the Fiio E10k with the HE4xx? I'm planning on buying this amp but unsure if it will drive these headphones well enough.
aceedburn
34
Dec 30, 2017
Acheron_NZHi, I use the Fiio X3 mark3 DAP with the Fiio Q1 Mark2 amp with the 4xx. With the bass boost and high gain options on the Q1 mark2, these are brilliant. Drives the 4xx beautifully and adds a little more oomph to the low end. This combination to me is a dream pairing.
maximumsid
49
Dec 30, 2017
Acheron_NZHE4XX were TERRIBLE with Fiio E10K. Even though it even has enough current to drive it (confirmed after getting final specs) the soundstage was narrow, the mids were recessed, and it sounded harsh. Then I got an O2 amp, and everything became MUCH better. I still use Fiio E10K as a DAC, so it's still being used, but the AMP of Fiio is really not good for HE4XX.
ExacoMvm
35
Sep 23, 2018
maximumsidF**k i wish i've read this earlier :D Well, atleast i wont have to buy an DAC anymore ( i guess ).
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Kbaum
64
Jun 2, 2022
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