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jscrub
May 26, 2018
A few days ago I insulted MiTo on this forum, his response was immediate.
More recently I posted a request regarding information on Massdrops suppliers, I would like MiTo to share information on who is providing the Aluminum and PCBs for this build. I would also appreciate transparency regarding the cost of the hardware in the board. Both Massdrop and Mito have not replied to my requests for transparency.
This is the same item as the ALT keyboard, yet the group buy costs for either batch will not be influenced by each other. This is a basic PCB, acrylic plate and aluminum housing, how much do these materials cost? Are we talking 15% margin? 30%?
At $139 without keycaps we are looking at a $100 in material costs if we are talking a 30% margin, which is hand over fist profit for a retail outlet. There is no way the material costs are so high... $10 tops per item, maybe $50 in material costs... fuck it, go half the cost of the board $75... we are talking 38k in profit at 500 sales for what amounts to collecting orders, contacting vendors, placing the purchase order, and delivering parts.
People who think this kind of reward is reasonable have never run a small business. We are being taken advantage of, these profits are unheard of in the retail market.
Massdrop, I am disappointed in your failure to respond. I feel there needs to be a campaign inside the community to correct your profiteering on the back of a hobby that everyone should be able to enjoy.
shadydentist
9
May 26, 2018
jscrubMaterial cost is relatively low. Aluminum isn't that expensive. Manufacturing, however, is extremely expense. I don't know if you've ever looked at any similar keyboards, but $140 is very much on the low end for a cnc metal case. A comparable product is the tada68, which is about 150 for something with fewer features than the ALT. Your complaints about price gouging are wildly off base.
If you are really interested, go download a cad file of a keyboard case and see if you can find find a machine shop that can make it. You'll likely find quotes of 400 dollars just for the machining.
sevenseacat
1938
May 26, 2018
jscrubMiTo is the designer, not the manufacturer. Unlikely he can provide you this kind of information.
Keep backpedalling. You're making yourself look like at best uninformed, at worst an idiot.
jscrub
May 26, 2018
shadydentistYou are comparing the market price (prices you see on other websites) to what you see on massdrop, they are all marking cases up. I am making two requests, information on the vendor and information on the cost of the build.
Of course it is going to cost an arm and a leg for a one off production of a case. The setup is the most expensive part of the machining. Which is why I am frustrated. At this point in time, if massdrop is going to take on the venture of manufacturing electronic components (headphones and keyboards) they are hopefully doing it correct.
Hopefully they understand how to scale production and make the most money out of large orders. I do not know if massdrop carries inventory, but it seems like common sold items (headphones knives and now mech keyboards) are being acquired in some batch process for a better price.
If massdrop is doing things like removing the associated costs with carrying inventory and having any type of customer service, maybe they could bring transparency to the table in regard to their supplier and part costs.
After using massdrop for a while now most of my popular drops have been delayed, I have not joined a drop that actually presented any cost savings over conventional amazon, and I am only signing up for one of a kind hype products that are poor quality.
I have 3 pair of massdrop headphones ranging from 9.99, 39.99, 150.... they are all broken. Any time you ask massdrop for help the answer will be "sorry we cannot do anything but we can cancel your order."
In the end, to each their own, if you want to defend the business... cool. However, after recent interactions, sales, and my current experience with their delivery and products, I have done a 180 on the service and am here to ask for more.
sevenseacat
1938
May 26, 2018
jscrubYou're conflating so many issues into one, that it's not even funny. Now you're talking about broken headphones and customer service? Really???
jscrub
May 26, 2018
sevenseacatSo what you're saying is all you want to do is argue. Good points, you should write something after this to get the last word.
MiTo
13955
MiTo
May 26, 2018
jscrubLast thing I could care about at this point is being insulted by anyone over the Internet, but I realized you had more serious problems that needed to be addressed the moment you decided to run a dirty mouth with uncalled for attacks aimed at numerous fellow enthusiasts, merely because you don’t have better things to do, a proper hobby to enjoy or any empathy to share. The seemingly valid points you have been spamming are manipulative non-sense that was made up because you want to start a discussion with people, because of your seek for attention and because other than guessing you have no idea about what actually goes behind the design process of a custom community made product lke this, or any manufactured product for that matter. There are plenty of details behind prototyping, engineering, auditioning, manufacturing, quality control not to mention sales handling, logistics, customers support, distribution, taxes and profit since Massdrop isn’t charity.
Nobody here is in obligation to answer you at any particular time, not the community members, me included, nor Massdrop themselves. Let alone disclose details or costs for you, but you can be sure they are much higher than you think. Like another member suggested you can go ahead and design a product if you can, source enthusiast grade materials, work with international manufacturers and suppliers, setup teams and distribution within global reach, customer service, quality control procedures and logistic schemes, in case you really want to have a general idea about the actual costs behind a project of this magnitude and business model.
Massdrop’s operation is in compliance with the legislation, the company itself and the agencies that regulate fair trading and labor laws (not only in the US but overseas too) are doing and will keep doing their job when it comes to ensuring an adequate working environment for the employees. Otherwise projects like the ALT wouldn’t kick off to begin with.
There’s no space for hate and grit here, we are a passionate and dedicated mechanical keyboard community of hobbyists. Nowadays it’s no big deal for me to step away from a discussion when I see it’s going nowhere. This is clearly what’s going on so I won’t address to you further. I strongly suggest that you try to find another hobby and a passion to consume your heart as you seem to have a lot of stress and impatience in the head right now. Godspeed.
knowimagination
148
May 26, 2018
jscrubIf you think 30% markup is "hand over fist" profit for a small business it confirms the fact that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The rests of your post had already made it pretty clear but 30% would put most small businesses out of business real quick.
A community member
May 26, 2018
jscrub> Of course it is going to cost an arm and a leg for a one off production of a case. The setup is the most expensive part of the machining.
You just answered yourself. Think about it. The Pok3r is about half the cost of this because they made a shit ton more (between 10K and 100K units, while this board struggles to get over 1K) and that (the pok3r) comes with an aluminum case, RGB, and doubleshot caps.
jscrub
May 26, 2018
ok, how about the supplier part
jscrub
May 26, 2018
knowimaginationyou ever run a retail outlet?
jscrub
May 26, 2018
MiToSo where is the information on your suppliers??? These are just words you have given me, they are no help.
knowimagination
148
May 26, 2018
jscrubI’ve worked in a small business and if I had sold most items for a 30% markup then I would have been fired because the owner. Would have gone out of business.
No one owes you any information if you are comfortable backing this project then leave, you aren’t entitled to info on suppliers or material costs or anything else. Do you do the same thing when you go buy a new phone find all the suppliers and make sure that your phone isn’t marked up more than 30%? Of course you don’t so just go away and stop making everyone miserable having to read your asinine comments.
Good lord massdrop needs a block feature.
jscrub
May 26, 2018
MiToAlso Mito, you are at the head of a very public and a very profitable public offering... If you cannot handle the simple statements I have made, or answer the simple questions, the internet is not the place for you.
This statement "Last thing I could care about at this point is being insulted by anyone over the Internet, but I realized you had more serious problems that needed to be addressed the moment you decided to run a dirty mouth" is a representation of your inability to handle this situation. Answer the questions and move on, we do not need a novel written in the style of your personal diary.
Again, toughen up bud, you're making money... how bout you answer the questions rather than typing a lot of nothing to deflect the question. Who are your suppliers, what is the cost of the raw material?
ptiede
29
May 26, 2018
jscrubjscrub that is such a load of bullshit. Mito has been nothing but professional in dealing with people in this drop including you. Yes Mito is dealing with people in this drop but he is dealing with people who are actually interested in this drop and are asking meaningful questions. From scrolling through this it is clear that you are just spamming the thread with the same questions constantly, and actually not just this thread but multiple others. You are just trying to start shit so that you get attention. Furthermore, you pretend that you are being reasonable in your question but most of them are just baiting people into a response. You and your opinions are the most important thing in the world get over yourself.
jscrub
May 26, 2018
knowimaginationYour small business depended on greater than 30% margins? What were you selling? What is the business? Is it still in business? If your return on sales was greater than 30% why would you leave? A grocery store makes 1% ... A clothing store 10-13%.... Restaurant 2-5%, maybe a jewelery store could pull in 50% margin on retail, but an outlet like massdrop is sitting pretty if they are pulling in greater than 30% margin on their exchanges.
I don't know why you would need to be blocked from this mundane discussion regarding simple economics. I think it is a healthy discussion where defenders of MiTo make sure I avoid personal insults and trash anything negative I have to say about their dream.
Again, who are the suppliers and what is the cost of the material? People need to ask these questions for their own good.
jscrub
May 26, 2018
ptiedeWe will sign you up under the "hates my perspective and cannot handle dissent" column... thanks for the time
knowimagination
148
May 26, 2018
jscrubYou don’t even seem to understand the difference between a markup and a profit margin since you seem to be using them interchangeably.
No one owes you any information
jscrub
May 26, 2018
knowimaginationyeah that's it, use my lack of continuity to run from the discussion. I am sorry not to use the exact terms you need to hear.
knowimagination
148
May 26, 2018
jscrubThere is no discussion it’s just you using lots of words to say nothing because your upset about not being heard.
The terms make an enormous difference to the argument. Maybe you should learn the difference before you continue to say things that don’t make sense and then argue with people about how they are the ones who are wrong.
jscrub
May 26, 2018
knowimaginationoh, I've been heard, you're the one inserting yourself into the discussion to make an argument.
A community member
May 26, 2018
jscrubDude, just keep things clear. You don't like the pricing of this keyboard. Cool, then don't buy it. You keep talking big about what it takes to make this thing, yet you don't even consider just not clicking the 'join drop' button. End this conversation already.
jscrub
May 26, 2018
People read the thread and feel they need to get personally offended and defend some imaginary collective honor... If you don't like the conversation, don't read it. If you don't see the value in knowing the information, so be it... but massdrop is letting me down and I am asking the questions I want to know.
Again, if you do not like the conversation, do not read it.
knowimagination
148
May 26, 2018
jscrubAt some point a rational person would figure out that they are not going to get the answers they want. At that point you have to make a decision do I just move on and not take part in the drop, or like a petulant child do you just continue to ask the same questions over and over like you must have an answer or MD will suffer the wrath of your mommy and daddy.
jscrub
May 26, 2018
knowimaginationwhy are you typing still?
knowimagination
148
May 26, 2018
jscrubCause I love my keeb
jscrub
May 26, 2018
knowimaginationask not what your keeb can do for you, but what you can do for your keeb.
Rice_Krispies
53
Jun 1, 2018
knowimaginationOh man. X-)
Rice_Krispies
53
Jun 1, 2018
MiToYou are a class act. I appreciate the time, effort and enthusiasm you put into your projects. =)
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