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MrDocNoble
75
May 15, 2017
I wonder if someone could help answer this for me. To begin, I'm not adverse to spending $50 on a high-quality spinner, but therein lies the problem: Quality.
First, It's being developed by RAMA WORKS which never created a spinner before. Granted, spinners don't truly require any sort of sophisticated engineering (center of mass in center, with weight distribution focused on the extremities to enable increased torque), but it's still a factor. Additionally, I don't see any product by RAMA that is focused on a lot of movement really, so that's one thing.
Second, I do have qualms regarding the bearing. It's a 608. That's exactly the same as the one used in most skateboards. Granted, it's ABEC 9 which is 'high performance', but if we consider the bearing-to-spinner ratio, it's rather not suitable. There's a reason why most small-size / "midget" spinners have R188 bearings. The decreased size (therefore better ratio to body) allow for much better spin times and performance.
This leads to the third point. This spinner, priced at $50 and advertised as a 'top-quality' spinner from a group which has never released a spinner, has only about 2 minute spin times.
Given the fact that it'll ship from Hong Kong mid-August, I am just seeing it difficult if it's truly worth its price tag. The only thing going for it are the CAD images posted on the front page. ..
TomKazansky
206
May 16, 2017
MrDocNobleyour concern about quality is right, RAMA did have a prototype but producing +2000 pieces is another matter, people will doubt if the manufacturer can maintain consistent quality. but: put your faith in RAMA and Massdrop!
I don't know about the "bearing" so I have no comments here.
I have never used a spinner before so I don't know if you're supposed to spin and then let it, well, spin while you sit and watch.
please read the "Lastly" part in Vigrith's comment: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x-rama-s01-remedy-spinner/talk/1685280 it's you who decide if this spinner is worth its price tag.
MrDocNoble
75
May 16, 2017
TomKazanskyWell, to be fair, the points in your post portray a rather weak argument:
1.) Concern on quality 2.) No comment on the very thing that makes a spinner, spin 3.) Never used a spinner 4.) Quoting Vigrith in which he/she says "people are buying this primarily due to customer loyalty"
Honestly, it makes it seem as if this isn't a spinner drop, but a $50 donation drop for a small, rotatable art piece...
I honestly think the spinner will look very close to the concept images, considering the previous products feedback and that the design looks to be rather easy to machine via CNC or something.
As for general spinner knowledge:
608 Bearings are relatively large. Therefore they have more innertia and resistance to motion, and they generally need to cover more distance for a full rotation compared to the smaller bearings. They also have a greater surface area = greater friction, and thus have less of a spin time.
Additionally, the bearing casing is larger than the r188 ones, meaning there's less mass/material in the spinner itself, which is detrimental for spin times.
Since we're dealing with a small object that needs to spin for a long time, r188's honestly win across the entire board. So that's the main thing.
As for spinners themselves, I personally use it as a fidget toy. The vibrational and gyro feedback really does wonders -- it's kinda like the sensation of typing on a mechanical keyboard but several times a second and radiates across your entire palm. It's really excellent. The problem with a ~2 minute spin time is not the fact that it stops spinning after 2 minutes, but that you can /feel/ it slowing down shortly after spinning.
I have another spinner that spins about 2.5 mins. I can feel it slowing down around 30s in.
That's just a really annoying thing to have sometimes. But it's acceptable considering I got it for about 3 bucks off of eBay.
But this here is a $50 dollar spinner. From what I see here, this drop just seems to be geared towards blind customer loyalty and "first-time" spinner buyers.
Zanduby
80
May 16, 2017
MrDocNobleThank god for adapters eh!? Not everyone is about spin time, but there are plenty of options to fix this.
As far as quality, a lot of people here come from the mechanical keyboard world, were we know very well of Rama's ability to design and create great pieces. He has also made some cuff links and collar stays.
For sure there is some customer loyalty here, but it is hardly blind. I've watched as Rama have worked on prototyping this spinner and the work he's put into designing the body.
makats
51
May 16, 2017
MrDocNobleIt amazes me that people can get annoyed with the thing that is supposed to do the very opposite of it :)
Doesn't it defeat the purpose of it altogether?
Vigrith
4081
May 16, 2017
MrDocNobleI have no argument against your knowledge of spinners, your points are made mostly in a fair manner and I agree with much of what you say. My only qualm is with the way you portrait this as if it's unacceptably sub par; according to what @Zanduby said (whom I trust) you can just get an adapter for the bearing, and whilst spending more money on something that's already arguably not cheap is far from ideal, it does help fix the issue of this being catered toward "beginners" (if such a thing can exist in the world of fidget spinning).
Just because I'm not buying this for its price:performance ratio doesn't mean there's blind following going on, many people buy many things for reasons other than that. I easily justify the cost personally with zero concern far as its spin times et al goes for reasons I've already expanded on here.
MrDocNoble
75
May 17, 2017
ZandubySo you're saying that if I want to convert this spinner to be similar in quality as other spinners within that price range, I should buy an adapter (ranging 3-10$ or so), new pads (~5$), and great quality r188 bearings (~25$)
So that's about 33$ above the 50$ price point, alongside the long shipping costs. That's a bit far fetch, don't you think?
But you do have a point. It would be cheaper to get it at 50% off the fake MSRP 100$ price tag right :P so 88$ vs 133$s...
I agree that RAMA has some great design abilities, but, to quote myself: "Additionally, I don't see any product by RAMA that is focused on a lot of movement really, so that's one thing." So the point about making cuff links and collar stays... I mean collar stays really? The amount of research, development, and rigorous testing behind collar stays must've been phenomenal.
As regarding customer loyalty, that was a bit rough from me, I agree. What I meant to stay is yes, RAMA can make some visually nice and substantially decent quality items, but this is his first foray into something like this. Prior expectations should not be blindly adapted to new frontiers
MrDocNoble
75
May 17, 2017
VigrithI agree that my written stance is quite strong, I'm just hoping that it would elicit a suitable response to my worries.
I actually did join the drop for the brass, rose gold one. But when I looked more into spinners and became aware of the current available ones out there, I realized that all I'm really doing is dumping excessive money for something that looks great.
And yeah, you can do all the adjustments needed and add the extra 33$ to make the spinner to perform as others around its original price point, but that's the thing. So far it just seems that there's just a large amount of 'new' people that are unaware of the current options and have no qualms for spending excessive money on something that performs worse than 15$ spinners from spinetic-spinners.com.
But don't let me make you feel that your purchase is a mistake or a bad decision. The ultimate goal at the end of the day is if you gain the enjoyment from it that you expect you will (or more!). I'm not bashing this spinner as being subpar, I'm just reacting from the fact that it's being portrayed as something that it isn't. After all, I fell for it before I actually did any sort of research into it.
KingRama
844
RAMA
May 17, 2017
MrDocNoble Not sure why you're questioning my capabilities as an industrial designer, our goals are to solve problems. Just because someone has never designed a spinner before doesn't mean they cannot design a good one. The spinner was never designed to be the highest end, fastest spinner - it was designed to be a great feeling device to fidget with and ultra compact to fit into your pocket for the go. "This finger spinner bridges the gap between the ultra high end and the everyday beater." My portfolio also extends far beyond what is shown to the public.
As for the choice with the 608 bearing, it was used to allow for the maximum in choice -since you can choose to use a 608 or an R188 via an adaptor. As for the spin time, that is for the Aluminium variant - the brass one has a greater spin time with the included bearing. Other bearings can be easily placed in - the goal of the product is to be used as a baseline to improve upon, I want people to experiment and do something with it. It's always a fun task to make things better yourself. I also don't believe that higher spin time is necessarily better, I think it's fun to spend more time spinning it up / fidgeting with it - rather than waiting for the next round.
Hope that helps you understand the product a little better!
MrDocNoble
75
May 17, 2017
KingRamaThanks for the great reply Rama, it was much appreciated! That was the response I truly wanted and does clear up the intended purpose for this spinner for me. Cheers.
KingRama
844
RAMA
May 17, 2017
MrDocNobleNo worries at all mate! Glad that cleared some things up :)
Cheers!
TheSkeleton
3134
May 18, 2017
MrDocNobleAnother point to add is that a lot of buyers are from the mech keyboard community and modifying our products is like #1 on our list, so while you have to modify the spinner to make it it's best that's fine for most users.
TheSkeleton
3134
May 18, 2017
KingRamaBtw RAMA sorry for not being able to get in on this drop, I've already had to but 400 dollars worth of keyboard stuff and tacking this on would kill me
BrainFlush
6860
May 18, 2017
TheSkeletonI just stopped eating. And that's ok. Because I adopted a Spooder! :D
TheSkeleton
3134
May 18, 2017
BrainFlushWhat spider, golden orb weaver?
BrainFlush
6860
May 18, 2017
TheSkeletonHonestly. They surprised me by the choice and I'm going to embrace it. Pink and Red Spooder. :D
TheSkeleton
3134
May 18, 2017
BrainFlushI agree
MrDocNoble
75
May 19, 2017
TheSkeletonYou do know that the majority of spinners have removable bearings rights? And others even have modifications available for their arms (only a few mind you, but the point stands). And pretty much every spinner has removable/replaceable/custom buttons as well.
RealLaugh
35
May 19, 2017
KingRamaIs the adapter included or are they sold with the aftermarket bearings?
MrDocNoble
75
May 20, 2017
RealLaughFairly certain what's included are:
1 x Spinner 1 x 608 Bearings ABEC 9 2 x Thumb Buttons (the other spinner up atm doesn't include these by default) 3 x Grub Screws (That keeps bearing secure) 1 x Grub Tool (to unscrew the screws).
No adapter afaik, but I could be wrong
MrDocNoble
75
May 31, 2017
KingRamaHey rama, quick question.
Will the retention screws deform the bearing when screwed in? Cause I assume there's quite a bit of force from the 3 screws to keep it in place.
KingRama
844
RAMA
May 31, 2017
MrDocNobleHey mate :)
Nope! The grub screws don't actually have to be very tightly torqued to secure the bearing. It will not deform the bearing, even if tightly torqued.
MrDocNoble
75
Jun 12, 2017
KingRamaWhat did you do that makes it different than, say the Vorso flat top, which also uses retention screws (two instead of your three) that results in bearing deformation after long-term usage?
KingRama
844
RAMA
Jun 20, 2017
MrDocNobleWoops! Sorry mate, just saw this - if you believe that bearing deformation would be an issue (I don't believe it is if not over-torqued) you can use Nylon retaining screws which will take on the deformation :)
AlexCzar
120
Oct 31, 2017
KingRamaActually it is. If under-tightened the screws quite quickly become loose due to vibration and bearing pops out, when tightened though performance noticeably degrades (at least I think this is due to tightening as nothing else changed on mine).