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Bobthedespot
85
Feb 27, 2018
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I hope it doesn't seem like I'm just crapping on drops... but hopefully someone can get value from this comment.
Nordost cables are not necessarily "made in USA", just "assembled in USA".
My Taiwanese sourcing agent showed me that all of the totl Nordost Odin cables were repurposed medical imaging cable. Before you expect to be able to DIY a cheaper cable that performs as well, I should mention that I priced out the Nordost Odin 2 (retail ~45k before discounts), and it would have cost 900 USD when using WBT silver spades as terminators.
Feb 27, 2018
SGva
46
Feb 27, 2018
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BobthedespotAbsolutely, totally false statements from Bobthedespot. Nordost cables are 100% manufactured and terminated in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. That's in the USA folks! Your Taiwanese sourcing agent? Perhaps he is referring to the counterfeit "Odin" cables sometimes seen on ebay which are of horrible quality and, total fakes from China.
Feb 27, 2018
Curieux88
66
Feb 27, 2018
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Bobthedespotjust FYI. raw cable manufacturing requires insanely large machines. no audio cable companies are capable of affording such facility. A lot of them just outsource raw cables from a company called New England Wire Technology in new hampshire and from china. As long as it's manufactured according to the spec, who cares if it comes the states or china? (besides the labor law issue, which the companies have no control over).
Feb 27, 2018
Bobthedespot
85
Feb 27, 2018
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Curieux88I completely agree. @Curieux88
If it sounds good, looks good, and lasts well, I'm all for overseas manufacturing when it makes sense.
I think Nordost could afford their own machines if I am not badly mistaken, and many companies use the same shops for manufacturing/assembly.\
D'Agostino, for example, manufactured his iconic design with the help of Slovenian weapons manufacturers in CT... over $50M alone in CNC machines.
@SGva Proof? It's not hard to snap a shot of your production facilities, if you in fact make the raw cable yourselves. And no I'm not talking about those abysmal cables on ebay. I'm talking about actual cable produced and sold for ultrasonic imaging machines. It's expensive, and probably well engineered for its intended purpose.
I don't really care if it is made in China, but you need to get a hold of your factory to manage 3rd shift product runs if it's an exclusive design (which I doubt). I have held the cable samples in my hand and held them up against the Odin 2 cables in person, and they are identical.
I'm willing to concede that the cable may be made with lower quality wire, or maybe using different insulating layers, but I personally doubt it. The whole point of my post was to call attention to the very likely case that the Nordost Cables are not entirely Made in the USA, rather just Assembled in the USA.
Feb 27, 2018
Curieux88
66
Feb 27, 2018
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BobthedespotHave you seen cable machines? Those are just not some office printer. It's pressure extruded that allows even strand tension. Each cable also get lubricant, so it's a lot more complicated. When you get a chance, cut one up and see what it looks like. Those machines are NOT cheap, let alone hiring someone who can operate/maintain.
I can tell you all about D'Agostino. First of all, they are not manufactured in CT anymore. They moved their facility to carefree, arizona in 2013. They have never, not once in the company's hisotry, made their own chassis in house. Their CT "facility" was his own's house's garage. The chassis used to be, probably until 2011 or so, came from a small machine shop in CT, and since then all of their momentum chassis are made by a gigantic machine shop in colorado springs. That company makes things for the government and such, and it's fucking ginormous. The chassis for their progression line are made by a large machine shop in Tempe Arizona. I'm not saying what they are doing is bad. I'm just telling you that they never ever owned any CNC machines of any size. The largest machine they own is probably some $200 drill press. My point being, I don't know where you heard about that $50m CNC set up, but that's a lie. Even companies like that cannot afford a CNC machining system. Things are expensive.
edit: again, these companies don't get stock cables from some rando companies in china. they often design their own, and outsource raw cable manufacturing to overseas bc there are not that many companies in the US that can do that. So technically speaking, yes they are not entirely made in the US by definition, but what's wrong with that? Most manufacturing is done not only bc of the cost, but also because of lack of manufacturability in the us.
Feb 27, 2018
SGva
46
Feb 27, 2018
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Bobthedespot"the very likely case that Nordost Cables are not entirely Made in the USA . . ."? You are indeed mistaken. 100% USA made, in Massachusetts. Nordost has also examined the fake Chinese cables and they do not have, among other properties, Nordost's patented dual micro mono-filament construction and, are of very inferior quality including the raw cable conductors, connectors and dielectric ("jacket"). By the way, the proprietary Odin 2 HOLO:PLUG connectors are also made in Massachusetts. Check out their website at www.nordost.com for more info.
Feb 27, 2018
Bobthedespot
85
Feb 27, 2018
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Curieux88I think we missed something somewhere.
I'm perfectly familiar with wire manufacturing, and I've been in facilities tooled for wire spooling. I'm not at all suggesting that wire could be made in a printer on a desktop.
Also, the "small machine shop" in CT is actually very large. The owners won an intellectual property lawsuit against D'Agostino after he went full retard and tried to bounce town. I actually had the chassis that was entered as evidence in the trial on my bench for a while. The $50M CNC was owned by the shop, not D'Agostino. While the machine was not in the slightest related to D'Agostino, there was in fact a single 5-axis machine that was double the footprint of a semi-trailer.
Their bread and butter as a shop is precision satellite parts. They also make optics mounting hardware for guns. The D'Agostino project was just a project, certainly compared to the scope of their normal work.
Feb 27, 2018
Bobthedespot
85
Feb 27, 2018
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SGvaI don't think you have any credibility on this.
Feb 27, 2018
Curieux88
66
Feb 27, 2018
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BobthedespotYeah, we definitely missed something. I interpreted your comment as companies should be able to afford machines like that, and you brought up the $50m CNC in relation to dagostino. I just want to tell you that no small company can afford full out CNC machine or wire manufacturing machines. Those are a whole separate business of its own. Dagostino is still small enough that they have to outsource chassis manufacturing, and that's mostly the case in the industry.
and as for JVP, which I remember as the name of the shop in CT, was described to be small. But I guess that was compared to the shop in colorado springs, which has their own anodizing stations and painting facilities. I can't argue about the lawsuit, which I have heard of. I only heard it from the guy who used to work for dagositno and im sure he heard it from dagostino himself, so it's most likely skewed. Although dagostino argued he got robbed by the owner of JVP.
either way, no audio company can afford their own machines. they don't have $50m just hanging around for such investment. also, at this point, there are not that many manufacturers that can produce quality goods in the states anymore. i know a guy who works for a cable company, and while he was working on some cable design with new england wire tech, the company that essentially invented a whole bunch of cable manufacturing, straight up told him they are not capable of producing the design. so he had to outsource it to china.
yeah, there's nothing wrong with getting stuff manufactured in china. the reality is that it's really hard to find american manufacturers anymore.
Feb 27, 2018
Bobthedespot
85
Feb 27, 2018
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Curieux88JVP it is. They do have extensive capabilities, certainly more than your buddy was told. I know there are 2 sides to every story, especially in court.
Overseas manufacturing tends to be a necessary evil, but the number of audio companies getting ripped off by their manufacturers is insane.
My new favorite story of Asian extortion is GEC and Aurasound... how does getting forced out of business by your factory sound?
Non-compete --> exclusive production relationship --> threats of grey market channel sales --> 55% ownership after "bailout" forced by inflated production cost claims --> foreign reverse merger OTC listing --> total liquidation of the company through bankrupcy
GEC ends up with the patent rights, and the investors in AuraSound lost $30M on valuation.
Feb 27, 2018
Curieux88
66
Feb 27, 2018
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BobthedespotMaybe. I always heard about how he couldnt get JVP to produce the quality products or even to meet the promised quantity. maybe something else was going on between them.
I can see that happening in the US, not just china. speaking of dagostino, he got kicked out from krell by the investors. I know it's nothing to with intellectual properties and such, but getting ripped off by investors or a third party isnt all that rare. I still don't see the absolute reason to avoid china.
Feb 27, 2018
Bobthedespot
85
Feb 27, 2018
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Curieux88That kind of thing tends to happen when you have an affair with your investors' wife.
I might have the front and back and time and place backwards, but D'Agostino's exit from Krell was not at all due to him getting ripped off.
Plus he actually didn't do the heavy lifting from an intellectual standpoint on the amp. <-- this from a SVP at Harmon
Feb 27, 2018
Curieux88
66
Feb 27, 2018
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Bobthedespothuh, that's interesting. I got it from the friend, who obviously only heard it from his boss. The story went that he stupidly signed a contract (with the investors) without reading it, and eventually got kicked out by them. He obviously had more engineers to do the engineering portion, but i guess that's what most electronics companies are like? there's a chief engineer who gives direction, and the baby engineers do the details.
Feb 27, 2018
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