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Amnesia1187
544
Aug 19, 2017
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ShalakazaamI feel like you are trying to imply this rather affordable case is expensive. I'd love to see you produce a better case cheaper. The Mekanisk Klippe is going to be a similar case and will run $179.99, the Fjell was like 250+ if I remember right. The E6-V2 GB that just ended STARTED at $300, and could easily get to like $400+ with all the brass parts.
Small batch high quality cnc is expensive.
Small batch high quality cnc is expensive.
Shalakazaam
596
Aug 19, 2017
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Amnesia1187it's a nice case but they should mass produce it to bring down the cost and stop catering to such a niche market. the mass in mass drop should mean something, shouldn't it? lol
Amnesia1187
544
Aug 19, 2017
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Shalakazaampricing is based on economics... not magic. there is a point where you just can't get cheaper because the time on the cnc doesn't somehow decrease with increased volume. You have to have access to substantially larger multi head cnc machines. But even those aren't magic, they just let you make multiple cases at once.
Most of the lower priced cases are cast or dramatically simpler manufacturing, they also tend to be thinner low profile cases that use substantially less raw aluminum.
Even if mass producing the case would drive the price down to say $100, that wouldn't happen at 100 units or probably even 1000 units but at like 10000 or 100000. And the demand just isn't there for that.
Most of the lower priced cases are cast or dramatically simpler manufacturing, they also tend to be thinner low profile cases that use substantially less raw aluminum.
Even if mass producing the case would drive the price down to say $100, that wouldn't happen at 100 units or probably even 1000 units but at like 10000 or 100000. And the demand just isn't there for that.
Shalakazaam
596
Aug 19, 2017
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Amnesia1187If that's the case, explain to me why then the aluminum case on, say, a pok3r is obviously a lot cheaper, yet the exact same size? In economics, there's also things such as margins among other things.
Amnesia1187
544
Aug 19, 2017
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ShalakazaamThe aluminum case on a pok3r is a painted/powder coated (not anodized/mao) and cast (not CNC) part. Anodizing/mao is more expensive and time consuming. A milled case is substantially cheaper and faster to produce. a cast case is just not as strong. It's more efficient because it's not machined out of a billet but rather the exact amount of metal is poured into a mold. it also scales much faster because you can just add more molds forever as long as you can hold your metal to temp.
the pok3r case is also something like 1/4th the thicknesss of this and is produced to a much larger scale than this. You seem to think economics is some sort of magic where the things you want are produced to scale so they can be made cheaper just for you regardless of if there is any demand to support it. I bet vortex produces 1000s if not 10s of 1000s of cases a batch. even at $100 a case this would never sell that many. So while yes, there is likely some way to lower the price, there is not enough demand to make doing so viable.
You cannot not produce a Ferrari for the same price as a Hyundai, and in the same way, you cannot produce a high end/well finished CNC case for the same price as a low end cast and coated one. its not just a small difference. It uses substantially more and nicer raw material CNC cases start as it starts out as a single billet of metal and has a much slower more expensive manufacturing process. A slower more expensive finish. fewer can be produced at a time. Etc.
the pok3r case is also something like 1/4th the thicknesss of this and is produced to a much larger scale than this. You seem to think economics is some sort of magic where the things you want are produced to scale so they can be made cheaper just for you regardless of if there is any demand to support it. I bet vortex produces 1000s if not 10s of 1000s of cases a batch. even at $100 a case this would never sell that many. So while yes, there is likely some way to lower the price, there is not enough demand to make doing so viable.
You cannot not produce a Ferrari for the same price as a Hyundai, and in the same way, you cannot produce a high end/well finished CNC case for the same price as a low end cast and coated one. its not just a small difference. It uses substantially more and nicer raw material CNC cases start as it starts out as a single billet of metal and has a much slower more expensive manufacturing process. A slower more expensive finish. fewer can be produced at a time. Etc.
Shalakazaam
596
Aug 19, 2017
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Amnesia1187It's almost guaranteed that they'd sell more if they dropped the price. You'd be creating more demand. Of course if you produce a case that costs more than most keyboards themselves, you're going to sell fewer of them. That's basic logic. You're comparing apples to oranges with that analogy. But, yes, I understand this case is of a higher quality. However, that's not to say it's not overpriced and or the price could be reduced in one way or another, which will likely increase demand. I get where you're coming from and, if you're willing to pay the outrageous price, all the world to you. This sort of thing will remain niche for as long the producer maintains his business model and customers like you are willing to pay a premium for such things.
Amnesia1187
544
Aug 19, 2017
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Shalakazaammore raw materials cost more money. more time being manufactured costs more money. you seem to think they can just magically lower the price regardless of what it costs to ya know... produce the thing. The raw materials in use here COST MORE than the ones used in the pok3r case. No matter how much you scale up your production, you are still using more material of a more expensive variety. The finishing process costs more and takes longer, no matter how much you scale, MAO/Anodizing will ALWAYS cost more than powder coating. CNC will ALWAYS cost more and be slower than casting. The "one way or another" you would reduce the price would be to reduce the quality. You can't have both cheap and quality just because you want it.
Yes, if you just up and dropped the price, they would sell more, but would they sell ENOUGH more. You are doing economics backwards. You don't set a price based on how it would sell then try and figure out how to make something reach that price. You need to actually be able to produce the product for what you are selling it for.
So for example, let's say they could somehow produce this case to sell at $100 by making 25,000 of them. The biggest keyboard group buy I've seen sold like 4000-5000 units if I remember right (though it was a keyset), but lets just say we hit that hypothetical, we list for $100 and sell 5000, the problem is we still have to buy the other 20,000 cases, lets say production cost on the cases is $80 a pop... thats a cool 1.6 MILLION dollars in spend to buy 20,000 cases you may well never sell, all to get $100k profit or an operating loss of 1.5 million.
I bet if you were lucky, they could drop the price like $10 at 1000 units or something. You need high margins or easily scalable production to make economies of scale really pay off. You also need HIGH VOLUME.
Sure, if you are apple you can pull it off: https://blog.bolt.io/no-you-cant-manufacture-that-like-apple-does-93bea02a3bbf
" What happened when Apple wanted to CNC machine a million MacBook bodies a year? They bought 10k CNC machines to do it. How about when they wanted to laser drill holes in MacBook Pros for the sleep light but only one company made a machine that could drill those 20 µm holes in aluminum? It bought the company that made the machines and took all the inventory. "
This is how you drive pricing down... You have to reach automation scale. But, most companies cannot afford the outlay of hundreds or thousands of cnc machines, and even the companies they contract out to don't have that kind of production capacity.
Yes, if you just up and dropped the price, they would sell more, but would they sell ENOUGH more. You are doing economics backwards. You don't set a price based on how it would sell then try and figure out how to make something reach that price. You need to actually be able to produce the product for what you are selling it for.
So for example, let's say they could somehow produce this case to sell at $100 by making 25,000 of them. The biggest keyboard group buy I've seen sold like 4000-5000 units if I remember right (though it was a keyset), but lets just say we hit that hypothetical, we list for $100 and sell 5000, the problem is we still have to buy the other 20,000 cases, lets say production cost on the cases is $80 a pop... thats a cool 1.6 MILLION dollars in spend to buy 20,000 cases you may well never sell, all to get $100k profit or an operating loss of 1.5 million.
I bet if you were lucky, they could drop the price like $10 at 1000 units or something. You need high margins or easily scalable production to make economies of scale really pay off. You also need HIGH VOLUME.
Sure, if you are apple you can pull it off: https://blog.bolt.io/no-you-cant-manufacture-that-like-apple-does-93bea02a3bbf
" What happened when Apple wanted to CNC machine a million MacBook bodies a year? They bought 10k CNC machines to do it. How about when they wanted to laser drill holes in MacBook Pros for the sleep light but only one company made a machine that could drill those 20 µm holes in aluminum? It bought the company that made the machines and took all the inventory. "
This is how you drive pricing down... You have to reach automation scale. But, most companies cannot afford the outlay of hundreds or thousands of cnc machines, and even the companies they contract out to don't have that kind of production capacity.
Shalakazaam
596
Aug 19, 2017
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Amnesia1187Bunch of straw man arguments in your last post. You can refer to my last comment which would be an entirely sufficient response to this last comment of yours.
Amnesia1187
544
Aug 20, 2017
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Shalakazaam... At this point I'm going to just assume you are a troll and stop responding. You really don't seem to grasp that there really just isn't much price to reduce. This is not a high margin case, it is ACTUALLY expensive to make. They can't just drop the price because then they would literally be selling them for less than they cost to make.
Plus, this is actually a CHEAP keyboard case. People pay $600-800+ for stuff like Duck keyboard kits. You not being able/willing to afford something does not make it overpriced. Just because you don't wanna pay what it costs, doesn't mean it can magically be made for what you are willing to spend. I'd love to know what exactly in my argument makes it a straw man argument.
Your argument is that all they have to do is mass produce to magically make it affordable and somehow skyrocket demand to justify it. You aren't actually providing any evidence or reasoning behind your argument. It's easy to say "the price could be reduced in one way or another ", but I'm curious if you actually have any ideas on HOW you might do this. What is one way you would cut costs? How much do you think this case costs to produce? What do you think the profit margin is?
My argument is that CNC manufacturing IS expensive and can only be made so cheap. No matter how much you cry about the pricing, realistically there is no VIABLE way to drive the pricing down much lower without compromising on quality, and for a great many of us, the whole point IS the quality. If I wanted a cheap cast and powder coated case then I'd just buy a pok3r case.
And also, let's be real here, lowering pricing is not gonna be some magic bullet here... The lambo case is only $80 and it's only sold 30 units so far. Pricing is just one part of what drives demand... quality is another. If this case is SOOOO overpriced as you say, then why have twice as many people purchased it despite it costing twice as much?
Plus, this is actually a CHEAP keyboard case. People pay $600-800+ for stuff like Duck keyboard kits. You not being able/willing to afford something does not make it overpriced. Just because you don't wanna pay what it costs, doesn't mean it can magically be made for what you are willing to spend. I'd love to know what exactly in my argument makes it a straw man argument.
Your argument is that all they have to do is mass produce to magically make it affordable and somehow skyrocket demand to justify it. You aren't actually providing any evidence or reasoning behind your argument. It's easy to say "the price could be reduced in one way or another ", but I'm curious if you actually have any ideas on HOW you might do this. What is one way you would cut costs? How much do you think this case costs to produce? What do you think the profit margin is?
My argument is that CNC manufacturing IS expensive and can only be made so cheap. No matter how much you cry about the pricing, realistically there is no VIABLE way to drive the pricing down much lower without compromising on quality, and for a great many of us, the whole point IS the quality. If I wanted a cheap cast and powder coated case then I'd just buy a pok3r case.
And also, let's be real here, lowering pricing is not gonna be some magic bullet here... The lambo case is only $80 and it's only sold 30 units so far. Pricing is just one part of what drives demand... quality is another. If this case is SOOOO overpriced as you say, then why have twice as many people purchased it despite it costing twice as much?
Shalakazaam
596
Aug 20, 2017
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Amnesia1187Now you've misconstrued some of what I'd said, significantly. Go reread the conversation. Have a nice day.
Menuhin
104
Aug 24, 2017
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Amnesia1187This one has very similar (but better) design and even more similar to the design of Korean Duck mini, cost < $100.
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=44698462095&ft=t&toSite=main
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=44698462095&ft=t&toSite=main
Menuhin
104
Aug 24, 2017
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ShalakazaamIt doesn't need to be mass produced - it just takes the willingness of the Chinese makers to lower their profit margin from the price range they raised to match those of the Korean makers.
This one has small production and even can request custom-made features, at the cost of just a bit > $90.
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=44698462095&ft=t&toSite=main
This one has small production and even can request custom-made features, at the cost of just a bit > $90.
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=44698462095&ft=t&toSite=main
Shalakazaam
596
Aug 24, 2017
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MenuhinExactly. I'm sure the cost of everything CNCing involves differs from region to region.
tobsn
263
Nov 23, 2017
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Amnesia1187You can produce that thing for $50-80 even with MOQ 20 pretty much anywhere... those arguments for the price are totally bogus. its a single piece simple tray mount.
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