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diyaudio
42
Apr 26, 2018
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I know it's a little OT, but talking of Submariner homage options, I bought a Tisell, blue bezel, blue dial, and I'm very happy with it. Everything about it, size, sapphire crystal, Miyota movement, steel bracelet, feels just right. 40mm is neither too big nor too small. I ordered online from their Czech website and paid list price. I just thought that is a good option if you're considering this drop. https://www.tisellwatch.com/diving-watches/tisell-sub-9015-2-40-mm/

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Apr 26, 2018
MadAnthonyWayne
63
Apr 27, 2018
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diyaudioHUGE difference between a Miyota 9000 series movement and and the Swiss ETA 2824-2.
Apr 27, 2018
diyaudio
42
Apr 29, 2018
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MadAnthonyWayneCare to elaborate? Or is this one of those Truths Which Everyone Knows?
Apr 29, 2018
MadAnthonyWayne
63
Apr 29, 2018
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diyaudioIt's one of the Truths Which Everyone Knows.
First, creating a high-beat mechanical watch movement with sufficient precision to achieve high enough accuracy that they can be routinely submitted to COSC for their chronometer certification is no simple feat, with as much marketing hype as the COSC has and the cost it incurs, it's still an accuracy certification. The forces required from a mainspring on the regulating portion of a watch to drive it at 28.8kbph are substantially higher compared to 21.6kbph or 18kbph, and achieving isochronism at that rate is difficult. It's why there are not that many 28.8kbph movement caliber families, and only a very few 36kbph movement calibers, the latter in extremely low volume numbers, and they're basically hand built, or rebuilt from a 28.8kbph ebauche. ETA mastered the Black Art of designing and manufacturing precision high-beat 28.8kbph movements with exceptional reliability and durability in very high volumes in the early 1970's. They've been doing it ever since, and they're noted for high precision that enables regulating them to high accuracy. That kind of track record and pedigree is worth everything in the realm of designing and manufacturing mechanical watch movements.
The Miyota 9000 family is a significant step up for Miyota in mechanical movements, and their first movement development since creating their dirt cheap 8000 family in the early 1970's. It was created by Miyota as the industry vacuum for high beat 28.8kbph hand-wind and hacking movements started forming with ETA (part of the Swatch Group) drawing down on sales of its movements to other companies outside of the Swatch Group. ETA had been propping up the mechanical watch industry globally with high-beat movements for decades, including many finding their way by various resale paths into high end fakes coming out of China. The typical path? Company XYZ legitimately using 2824 family movements orders 500 of them to leverage on volume pricing when they only need 300. The other 200 are sold off as a commodity at cost to anyone coming to the table with the cash to buy them. The Chinese fake makers beat a path to their door to get the legitimate watch company's excess. The source of them is virtually untraceable as movements are not serial numbered. The pressure was mounting on ETA from the Swiss watch industry to shut this off. The only means to do that was by shutting off supply to companies outside the Swiss Watch Federation (a Swiss industry group) and the Swatch Group.
The 2824 movement family, which has existed since 1971, just a few years shy of half a century, has withstood the test of time emerging arguably as the most robust and durable wristwatch movement design ever created. It's about the time Miyota created the 8000 family of cheap mid-beat. Those are reliable workhorses, but they're not high precision and as a consequence they're not noted for ability to sustain and maintain high accuracy. The aura surrounding the ETA 2824 isn't marketing hype. There's a reason the watch industry globally was beating a path to ETA's door for those movements. One can be assured, provided the watch case isn't compromised to contaminate the movement, and that it hasn't been unduly abused with repeatedly severe mechanical shock, there's high probability an ETA 2824 family movement will still be working reliably with good accuracy 40 years from now. Miyota cannot begin to make that claim yet with its 9000 family. They've not been on the street for a decade yet. If a movement is damaged, how well does Miyota support it with parts availability? Not a problem with the ETA 2824 family. With an ETA powered watch you've got a high degree of confidence it will be running with good accuracy four decades later, with zero maintenance, in spite of what ETA recommends, and if perhaps it does get damaged, there's confidence proper watchmaker can repair it and regulate it back to very accurate timekeeping.
When the high-beat Miyota 9000 family has been around to demonstrate its long-term durability and reliability for a couple of decades, along with a logistical support system that readily provides parts for them, perhaps it can stake a claim. It's much, much, much too new a movement. Can Miyota keep its quality control under control? I welcome the Miyota 9000's as finally some new mechanical watch movement development, but to claim they're on par with the ETA 2824 family is much too soon. Come back in 25 years and make a long-term reliability and durability claim.
Bottom Line: The ETA movements, and the Sellita clones (Sellita made movements for ETA under contract for decades), are proven workhorses with decades of high reliability and durability. The Miyota movements do not yet have that and won't have it for another 15 years or so. Buying a Miyota 9000 powered watch buys into the risk it won't prove to be as robust, durable or reliable over time as the ETA 2824 family have. That it beats at 28.8kbh, can be hand wound and hacks isn't enough. Will it still be running accurately forty years from now? Miyota cannot make that claim. ETA can.
Apr 29, 2018
diyaudio
42
Apr 30, 2018
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MadAnthonyWayneThanks. Interesting reply. In effect, we don't have _proof_ that the Miyota 9015 series movements (which are used in the Tisell I mentioned) will last 30 years. Maybe this is an important factor influencing some buyers. Not me. In 30 years, I expect to be either dead or so old that I won't care whether my Tisell works well or not.
By your logic, I guess you're uncertain of the provenance of the new breed of Omega movements too, which are showcased as "Master Chronometers", but use a new "co-axial" movement with low VPH?
On the Miyota vs ETA debate, I found this thread: http://forums.watchuseek.com/f71/eta-2824-vs-miyota-9015-specific-watch-comparison-4519745.html
Apr 30, 2018
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