SlideBelts: Vegan Leather Collection Discussions | Drop

Apr 20, 2018

No such thing as Vegan Leather.

Apr 20, 2018

onoduras

Apr 20, 2018

RayFYou're a little late to the party. :P It's just what they used to call "Patent Leather" which was no more leather than this is...

Apr 20, 2018

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Apr 20, 2018

onodurasAlways worth reminding the copy-writers--we’re not as dumb as they hope. Who were you referring to?

(Edited)

Apr 20, 2018

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Apr 21, 2018

RayFIt's a lot easier to read and write than "non-animal leather substitute" and everyone knows what it means.

Apr 21, 2018

Apr 21, 2018

tegeus-CromisWell, wasn’t that an enlightening response? From a site that sells A LOT of leather, I question their sudden interest in Vegan anything. My guess is PLASTIC, simply returns a better margin.

Apr 21, 2018

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Apr 21, 2018

RayFOr it could be that vegans frequently comment on leather drops either complaining about the fact that they exist or asking for more vegan options to be offered. It only makes sense to tap that market—look how well this drop is doing.
As a leather fan, I’m not at all concerned. Just look at how many leather products are up right now or have recently ended. (Currently, 9 in the men’s accessories section. 9, compared to one vegan option.) A single vegan belt option is not a sign of the leather end times for MD.

Apr 21, 2018

Apr 21, 2018

tegeus-CromisYeah, I’m not concerned either way. You continue to miss my point: “Plastic” does not equal “Vegan”. There are a lot of “non-animal” drops available on MD—that doesn’t make it a Vegan site. And selling plastic belts doesn’t mean MD suddenly gives a rats ass about Vegans in general. On the other hand, if any of the 41 buyers of these bellts actually bought them because they ARE Vegas, I’d love to hear from THEM (as opposed to YOU).

Apr 21, 2018

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Apr 21, 2018

RayFSo what is your actual complaint? That MD used the phrase “vegan leather”? That is the most succinct and clearest way to communicate with the people for whom this belt is meant. Avoiding that phrase because it annoys people not in the target market would be senseless.

Apr 21, 2018

Apr 21, 2018

tegeus-CromisOnly to you (and the person who writes MD’s ad copy).

Apr 21, 2018

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Apr 21, 2018

RayFAre you suggesting that most readers were misled by the phrase “vegan leather”? Were you? What did you think it meant?

Apr 21, 2018

Apr 21, 2018

tegeus-CromisI thought it meant MD needs to hire more talented—or at least , more imaginative—copy writers ;- )

Apr 21, 2018

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Apr 21, 2018

RayF“Vegan leather” is a phrase in common usage. MD didn’t invent it.

Apr 21, 2018

Apr 21, 2018

tegeus-CromisIt’s an oxymoron that just about any moron can see through. Common usage is not a defense; we can all think of words and phrases, no longer used these days because people finally stopped accepting them or in this case, suckering for them. But not everyone gets that, I‘m guessing?

Apr 21, 2018

Apr 21, 2018

RayFWhen you say “see through”, you imply that there is an attempt at deception. What is the deception?

Apr 21, 2018

Apr 21, 2018

tegeus-Cromis“Vegan leather”—not vegan, not leather. “See the cat? See the cradle?”

Apr 21, 2018

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Apr 21, 2018

RayF“not vegan”
Could you explain?
“not leather”
That’s not deceptive. No one reading the phrase “vegan leather” would think it was a claim that the product was made of leather. Unless you are saying some people believe it is possible to get an animal hide that didn’t come from an animal.
You might as well get upset because you bought a guinea pig and it turned out to be neither from Guinea nor a pig.

Apr 21, 2018

Apr 21, 2018

tegeus-CromisI’m beginning to think you’re a Republican, or at least, Tucker Carlson?

Apr 21, 2018

Keth

760

Apr 23, 2018

tegeus-CromisThey need to state what it's made of. "Vegan leather" is not regulated, and is often made of toxic plastics that are far more harmful to animals and the environment than actual leather production. If it's PVC or PU based, rather than kelp based, no one should be buying it as production of those materials is extremely toxic and energy intensive, and the only reason to buy "vegan leather" is because of environmental concerns.

Apr 23, 2018

Apr 23, 2018

KethYou forgot to remind tegeus-Cromis that he's an animal too--maybe even more so?

Apr 23, 2018

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Apr 24, 2018

Keth“They need to state what it’s made of.”
They do: “These belts swap out the animal hide in favor of faux leather polyurethane and PVC.”
I’m not saying it’s a great product. I’m saying there’s no reason to flip out over the use of the phrase “vegan leather”. At least, not the reason RayF is using.

Apr 24, 2018

Keth

760

Apr 24, 2018

tegeus-CromisAbsolutely, my big issue is with vegans, not the belt. Don't pretend to be pro environment and pro animal when you buy products that swap natural materials for toxic plastics.

Apr 24, 2018

Apr 24, 2018

KethThis is getting a tad out of hand--pretty sure no one at MD was actually marketing these belts to the Vegans (if any) in the audience, they just chose an awkward synonym for vinyl in their headline--which I suspect, even they regret by now. My original comment was intended to give them a hard time about that, not to seriously raise a credible argument/voice for Vegans--which by the way, none of the buyers (so far) have admitted to being. As for your "issue" with Vegans, I don't doubt they have concerns for the environment (don't we all), but that's not what Veganism is--it's a conscientious decision to abstain from animal products, in part, because of the undeniable cruelty involved in raising, and consuming them the way most of us do (which certainly does reek havoc on the environment). Veganism is not a perfect "ism" (no "isms" are), but I give them credit for trying. It's true that plastics are toxic (toxins are certainly part of the process, anyway), but what Vegans are attempting to do is not participate in animal cruelty, not save the world from toxins. Everyone knows cars and airplanes add to air pollution, and we're all concerned about clean air--but no one is expected to walk from LA to New York to prove their sincerity. We all just do what we can do, when and where we can--right?

(Edited)

Apr 24, 2018

Apr 24, 2018

RayFI may not be a vegan, but I am a vegetarian, and neither group wears leather. I really cannot see your issue with the title - the second I saw 'vegan leather' I knew exactly what they meant. Just because it's more commonly called 'faux leather' or 'PU leather' or whatever else doesn't make a difference. It communicates the same thing, arguably more clearly: this product is not made from animal skin, but still looks like leather.

Apr 24, 2018

Apr 24, 2018

SithonThat may be the way you do it, but being a Vegetarian doesn’t mean you don’t use/wear leather—being a Vegan does. My point is what I’ve already stated above. I’m not trying to convince you or educate you—you’re on your own in that regard.

Apr 24, 2018

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Apr 25, 2018

RayFEh? How does being a vegetarian mean you don't use leather? Regardless, you've made no point other than 'it shouldn't be called vegan leather' and provided no real reason why, other than 'i don't like it being called that'. It's not even massdrop's choice - it's what the company themselves called it.

Apr 25, 2018

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Apr 25, 2018

SithonHow about we use your own words to answer that question for you?
You said: "I may not be a vegan, but I am a vegetarian, and neither group wears leather" I said: "being a Vegetarian doesn’t mean you don’t use/wear leather—being a Vegan does."
You seem to be confused about the two terms (Vegan vs Vegetarian). As I mentioned, I'm not here to educate you, Google the terms if you're actually interested in either (I'm guessing not).
And you're right--my point was it shouldn't be called Vegan Leather. And it doesn't matter who decided to call it that, the company or MD.
It ain't what it ain't, and it is what it is!
Can you follow that?
PS: Do you eat eggs?

Apr 25, 2018

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Apr 25, 2018

RayFYes, thank you for repeating yourself without answering anything. My point was, I'm baffled as to why you think vegetarians wouldn't be opposed to wearing leather. And yes, I do eat eggs. Because I'm a vegetarian.
And so far as I can see you've not given any reason why it shouldn't be called 'vegan leather', other than 'I don't like it' and 'it's not real leather', which would be the entire point of it having the word 'vegan' preceding it.

Apr 25, 2018

Apr 25, 2018

SithonThere are lots of reason for becoming a Vegetarian--health and conscience being two common ones. If you've chosen health as your motivation, you might not be concerned about wearing leather, or consuming/using other animal products. If, on the other hand, your motivation was conscience, you probably will not want to wear leather or use/take part in, other products or industries that are part of the killing-of-animals-business (because you've done a little research and know about the cruelty and environmental impacts of those industries).
So to clarify; some vegetarians would be apposed to wearing leather (or using any other animal derived products), and some would not. The difference is motivation.
Lets assume you're in the conscience-camp; you see the cruelty in killing/mistreating animals (you wouldn't treat a pet that way, so why a cow--frame of mind). Eventually you're going to learn that any industrial scale animal consumption business has it's short comings, and where you might have first thought of Cattle, you'll realize it's bad for poultry too. And if you take it further (depending on your commitment to the cause), you'll learn that even products like bread and beer aren't truly Vegetarian or Vegan products. It just depends on how far you want to take your convictions.
In that respect, Vegetarianism and Veganism are a bit like religion--some Catholics eat fish on Friday, some don't; some use the Pill some don't ;- )
Now for the big finale: if you've chosen Veganism, as opposed to Vegetarianism, you have almost certainly done so because of your concerns about animal cruelty. In that context, the word "Leather" can only be associated with one thing only: ANIMAL CRUELTY, because there is no leather that isn't the result of killing an animal, and that's what you're opposed to. From that point of view, there is no good leather, because leather equals killing. Vegans don't like killing, so Vegans think putting the words Vegan and Leather together is counterintuitive (or down right insulting, when you aim it at them in an attempt to market something). That's an extreme view, admittedly, but it's a logical extension, depending on conviction.
Well-- what do you call IT, if you don't call it LEATHER?
That's a reasonable question. Vegans don't mind buying food that is vegan and says vegan on the label, but for the reasons I've mentioned above, they might not be too enthusiastic about products labeled: Vegan Steak, or Vegan Hotdogs. It's certainly done, and it does describe the product (and I'm guessing some vegans would eat it), but it's not a name THEY would have chosen for the products. It's the word association that presents the conflict, just like the term Vegan Leather. PETA uses the term, but if you do a search for Vegan Shoes, you're unlikely to find a retailer using Vegan Leather to describe the product. The preferred description would use the words: "Cruelty-Free." It's a little awkward sounding, but it gets straight to the point most Vegans are concerned with.
So, my point in taking MD to task for hocking Vegan Leather belts, was their dubious intentions. They can't be claiming they're offering these belts for reasons of conscience, because the site is littered with dead animal products. So much for deeply held convictions regarding animal cruelty, right? What's left? Money! Same old MD motive as any other drop. Now if I were a Vegan with deeply held convictions about animal cruelty, why would I purchase a plastic belt from a site that sells plenty of real leather products? Wouldn't that be a bit counter to my feelings? Yes it would! Even though it might be no big deal to a Vegetarian like yourself. And by the way you are not a Vegetarian, but you may be an Ovovegetarian (look it up).
And if none of the above makes any sense, consider this: one could argue that some ice cream is brown. One could also argue that shit is brown. But no one would buy ice cream labeled "Shit-Brown Ice Cream" because it would go against most people's deeply held convictions about not eating shit.
Know wud 'ah mean, Vern?

Apr 25, 2018

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Apr 26, 2018

RayFThank you - I actually do see your point now. Whilst on some level I do agree, I also personally don't see issue with the use of animal-derived names for non-animal products (I feel that the word 'leather' would have to be in this drop somewhere, at least, to describe the style, similar to how a vegan sausage would be labelled as such to communicate the type of food). I also don't know anyone that objects to these terms (which makes sense since I don't have any friends or family that abstain from using animal products) so that point of view never occured to me.
I also see positives in companies like massdrop offering products like this - greater visibility for products, a greater range of options etc., As well as demonstrating that there is demand for products like these. I guess it depends how you view massdrop too (this being a moneygrab doesn't bother me, I just hope it shows enough potential for leather alternative based products to be considered more often in the future.)
I should probably also point out a mistake I made here. I mentioned that the company calls it a 'vegan leather belt', but it appears that they actually just call it their 'vegan belt'. Oops.
And finally, yes, I am a vegetarian primarily because of ethical concerns. Technically I would be a Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian. I've never seen anyone else define that as a seperate 'thing' than Vegetarian before, rather just a type of vegetarianism (and the main type, as far as I'm aware). Mind if I ask why you do?

Apr 26, 2018

Apr 26, 2018

SithonI was a Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian. I'm not now, but hope to be again at some point in the future.
These classification or levels of Vegetarianism have to do with one's depth of understanding and depth of conviction; the more you know (which really comes down to--how much you want to know), the more difficult it becomes to ignore the issue. I felt guilty as a vegetarian, knowing I wasn't doing the most I could do, while also knowing I wasn't in a position to affect change in the greater scheme of things. In the end I suppose we do what we can, when we can, as best we can--even if that just means ranting about someone else not doing it any better.
Glad you get where I was coming from, hope we both get to where we're going ;- )

Apr 26, 2018

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Apr 26, 2018

RayFI get it now and I think you’ve made great points. I honestly thought you were straight-up trolling earlier, but I was mistaken. Thanks for learning me some things.

Apr 26, 2018

Apr 26, 2018

tegeus-CromisYou're welcome--no hard feelings here.
It's nice to meet new friends and have interesting conversations, while shopping for lots of useless stuff we probably don't need, isn't it? Where would we all be without MD?

Apr 26, 2018

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Calaverasgrande

1486

Oct 17, 2018

RayFGuess I'll return my tofu hot dogs and vegan mayonnaise. They don't pass the scrutiny of some online grammar nazi.

Oct 17, 2018