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AudioFaze
200
Oct 6, 2018
Has anyone compared the OPPO Ha-2/Ha-2SE to this device?
Caiz
23
Oct 10, 2018
stalepieI wonder how Amirs SINAD measurements compare with the SNR figures put out by Topping. I'm not saying SINAD is a "bad" format for measures, but that most the industry has been reporting THD and SNR separatly, so it's hard for me to know what the SINAD reporting means in terms of general market offerings., Especially with the different voltages tested at., for example Topping claims their SNR for this device is at 120(DAC), and Schitt claims a 108 for their Magni3.. and i don't see him declare in the forum posts of reviews; what sampling format he's testing on devices, which can make a big difference, both in the measurements, but also for shoppers looking at implementations..,
Z0d1Ac
251
Oct 10, 2018
CaizMeasurements can be great but not everything. You got to like how it sounds too you know. Btw the SINAD measurement is not great on high gain.
stalepie
19
Oct 10, 2018
CaizI guess you'd have to ask him if he doesn't see this comment. I don't know too much about it. I understood SINAD summaries were favored by the new Audio Precision unit he got. It still shows the THD+N as well as FFT graph and I think he tries to use the same measurement setups for each unit (so one review should be comparable to the next).
I don't think people can hear the differences at these levels. Most audio products measure well enough to be transparent? Sometimes there are differences with output impedance that make a small effect on how the headphone sounds.
Caiz
23
Oct 10, 2018
Z0d1AcWe'll, it shouldn't subjectively sound like anything i think, and agree with stephanie ;-) Measurements i understand show the discrepancies withing a given unit, so mean pretty much everything to me when deciding., i wouldn't trust my ears, especially dealing with things so fine as half-decent amp and dac measures, unless something is really off, so much as i dont even know the microphone used in most of what i listen too, so how can i know if i like the sound of a dac if mi hearing a microphone?,. unles listneing to true digital audio, like cmputer generated audio cga.., however, knowing im getting the quality right is important to me, for various reasons. I wouldn't trust my ear so much as measurements, unless something is really obviously inconsistent.,,, after all, if im just listening to what i like, how do i know what the artist intendeds, or what my audience would her, if i'm just calibrating to my own ear, lol. but with such things as dacs and amp, lol, im looking for accuracy, to get a reference for sound amnd make sure i know what im getting,.. So measurements mean everything about the accuracy, which is the point. lol, like "how it sounds", it shouldn't sound like anything as far as im concerned fellow, especially with a solid state product ;-) but audio quality is very really important to myself and others, even if i wouldn't trust my ear to pick out a difference., audio quality meaning the level of reproduction accuracy for samples.,, it's like a quality of life. and i say we should be paying the right people, under the right circumstances, and should be sure of that. (y)
Caiz
23
Oct 10, 2018
stalepie"I guess you'd have to ask him if he doesn't see this comment. I don't know too much about it. I understood SINAD summaries were favored by the new Audio Precision unit he got. It still shows the THD+N as well as FFT graph and I think he tries to use the same measurement setups for each unit (so one review should be comparable to the next). " ohh yeah, im not saying doing SINAD measures is a bad thing, and i agree tha;t a dac shouldnt sound to much like anything to my ear, im just saying it's hard to corroborate and cross refernce to do a proper analysis as a shopper when people are now using different units, and also running tests with different factors and unsaid values, like the varying of vrms or the sample formats.. and items like the da-amp like this nx4s isnt provided a measurement just for the amp stage, on the audio science forum, so it's just had to objective say, "we'll this one is clearly more accurate for my intents and purposes" and buy., and it's not that i dont trust one persons science, it's just tht cross referencing is vital, and the most common measures here, are not presented by themselves for this product by independent parties. For example, back when i last shoppd for a dsp-dac-amp, i was able to cross reference the same sort of measurements of SNR and thd, accross several independent sources, with this topping product, i cant get 2. So i say it's more difficult for my to know whats up.. i would have like to see a 1vrms SINAD measure for the common amps like magni, nx4s, 02, ect, tog et an understanding of how these amps compare for high efficiency headphones, then at 1vrms, then @5. i think most headphones are pretty efficient.., and while i have not registered yet on that forum, and was just wondering if anyone here has seen any other sources for meaures besides this one, There are a ton of analysis i wish i could see, like the NX5, and "secrative" NX3S, which i believe i have directly procured claims of the output impedance for, output impedance figures this manufacture seems to withhold for all but the nx4 product., and again i say, benchmark suggest these figures be published by manufacturers, so i think you can tell, it's become a complicated endeavor, by at least some data-witholding. Even creative now knows to publish thier output impedances, anyone ever publicly ask them why they have low output impedance now, but not earlier? i wonder what theyre answer would be as to why they had previously not advertised thier output impedance, for the past 30+ years, until now, and why their output impedance are so much lower now., i bet it would be a no comment? but yeah, topping doing it now, withholding a very important figure for customers to know, and you know what, i have seen hints that the nx5 flagship portable amp, has a high output impedance, almost like the Topping A30, though i am not certain. if your interested to know the nx3s, you can message me. no wonder the figure is being hiddden. Not to say it's not a useful product, just that having that figure known, would be a huge factor for system implementers..
Z0d1Ac
251
Oct 10, 2018
CaizI have been testing many amps for my new youtube channel and my ears have learned to spot differences quite easy now. Of course going from one solid state to another is going to be a smaller difference than going from one headphone to the other. But saying they all sound the same is ludicrous.
For example: - Fiio q1 mark ii: highs are dark, quite warm, slightly recessed vocals. ifi nano: mostly neutral sound signature and tonality but highs are a little bright/harsh. topping nx4: little V shaped sound signature with more recessed vocals but the highs and bass extends better with goon clarity/cleanness/tonality. - The line outputs the fiio sounds too congested and not high enough quality. If you use it's headphone balanced in then it comes close to competing to the other two. The ifi nano dac is almost as good as the nx4, but the nx4 still has better resolution, clarity, separation, dynamic range, extension, and with all that the tonality is what I like compared to the more boring ifi nano, but the only thing I don't really like is the distant/recessed vocals but you can turn the volume up louder to compensate but the highs start to be sharp (not harsh or bright tho).
stalepie
19
Oct 11, 2018
Z0d1AcI've usually read that the "Burr-Brown chips" (PCM1793) used in iFi's products have a forward midrange, not recessed. I would suggest trying to set up a double blind test with a friend, matching the volume levels carefully, and comparing the same bits of music with the same headphones to be sure you can really pick the players apart.
As for what you were saying Calz, I wish I had good responses... may be best to take it to ASR forum or ask others if you don't get a response here. I have read that there were actually were reasons for once having more than bare minimal output impedance. For instance, here is beyerdynamic's response to why one of their headphone amps has 100 ohms OI:
https://support.beyerdynamic.com/hc/en-us/articles/201847362-Why-does-the-A-20-have-an-output-impedance-of-100-ohms-
I'm not at all knowledgeable about these subjects so it's best to take the topic to those who are.
edit: This too might be interesting because it shows the effect of output impedance on the classic MDR-V6 headphone: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0321/7609/files/Headphone_Amplifier_Performance_-_Part_2.pdf?1361
I suspect it sounded warmer, less sterile and analytical, on older equipment, and the designers couldn't anticipate the ubiquity of low ohm OI devices (like phones and iPods) that came years later, unless portable players such as Walkmans already had this at the time.
Here is another article that seems to go against the grain a little bit:
https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/musings-headphone-amplifier-output-impedance
check out the summary statement at the end: "From the examples above it becomes clear that the best output impedance is not necessarily a low one. Increasing the output impedance may well reduce any oscillatory behaviour of the driver. Sure, it can slow down the response of the driver but sometimes that's a good thing. If you feel your headphone is a little bit 'hot' then increasing the output impedance using an adapter between headphone and amp (or by soldering resistors into the headphone or the headphone-plug) may well be a solution. "
Z0d1Ac
251
Oct 11, 2018
stalepieI was making the comparison short. I never said the ifi had recessed vocals. In fact in my review for it I said the vocals are slightly forward and highs are slightly bright, but it's the closest to neutral for me.
I have not tested higher output impedance amps. But if you have easy to run iems/headphones you may want to look into ifi audio's ieMatch. It will help in terms of lowering the volume which means you can get less channel imbalance, hiss, and it even improves dynamic range. May be what your looking for and is ideal for some of these portable amps I have tested which have too much power at the start of the volume nob.
amirm
341
Oct 12, 2018
CaizSNR and SINAD are two different things. SINAD is signal over the power of distortion+noise. SNR by definition is signal over noise alone. In that regard, SINAD ratings are more useful than SNR.
Also, SINAD is the same as THD+N. It is just stated in db versus %. The db number and hence SINAD are useful when evaluating fidelity because we can for example compare them to distortion free range we need for CD (16 bit data). Hard to do that with a percentage.
As to sampling rate, it is always at the bottom of the dashboard measurements in green. And there, unless there is a reason, the sample rate is 44.1 kHz. Other tests like Jitter use 48 kHz.
I plan to do a video tutorial on all my measurements at some point.
taww
1
Nov 29, 2018
Caiz "Measurements i understand show the discrepancies withing a given unit, so mean pretty much everything to me when deciding., i wouldn't trust my ears, especially dealing with things so fine as half-decent amp and dac measures...  I wouldn't trust my ear so much as measurements" This is a real head scratcher to me, but hey to each their own.
Aech661
82
Dec 2, 2018
tawwyeah.............. I try to use measurements to make decisions but I think I trust my ears more than measurements. If I had an audio store with a wide range of headphones and amps I wouldn’t bother asking for measurements from the salesman. I’d listen and choose what “sounds best” to my preference. I’ve picked headphones and amps based on reviews and measurements only to find out I hated them haha
NightLightFight
56
Dec 31, 2018
Z0d1AcI have been following a yt channel retro Eric reviews. Is it yours? Your reviews are quite nice .
Z0d1Ac
251
Jan 1, 2019
NightLightFightYes it is.
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