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profet
61
May 16, 2016
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SATA? Really? 50 max connection cycles before the ports fail. SATA is not meant to be a user peripheral cable. Check the durability section of this link: http://www.molex.com/webdocs/datasheets/pdf/en-us/0678005003_PCB_HEADERS.pdf
Vimto
9
May 16, 2016
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profetZefyr talks about the connector specifically on his GH interest check thread https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79183.msg2042533#msg2042533
Data
2004
Data
May 16, 2016
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profetHe mentioned it was "shrouded" -- I assume he means shielded. Molex makes a SATA connector rated at 500 connection cycles. Google "Molex 47080-4002" and read the datasheet for yourself. I don't know for certain that's the exact connector used in the VE.A but they exist, so you can relax a little. :P
Edit: It's easier to read the datasheet via Mouser: http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/276/0470804002_PCB_HEADERS-170024.pdf
Edit: It's easier to read the datasheet via Mouser: http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/276/0470804002_PCB_HEADERS-170024.pdf
profet
61
May 16, 2016
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DataSo one can relax because a connector exists that is rated at 500 (maximum) insertions? It may (or may not) be used in this product. Hundreds of insertions are just not acceptable for a consumer product. Keep in mind we're talking about the actual port. NOT THE CABLE. We're talking about the keyboard itself having a lifespan limited by the connection port used. Insert/remove the cable more than the 50 or so times that the connector is rated at, you need a new $500 keyboard.
Relax! It's just money.
Relax! It's just money.
Data
2004
Data
May 16, 2016
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profetYou're sure making a lot of noise over something we know very little about that impacts maybe a tiny percentage of users. How often do you expect to unplug and reconnect your keyboard -- not just the keyboard, but the bridge between halves? Is that something you do every day? Is it something you expect to do? Because that's weird.
50 reconnects is the typical rating, but doesn't imply that the port automatically fails after 50 ... and that's taking a big stretch and assuming VE.A uses the lowest-rated (cheapest) connector. I showed you that higher-rated connectors exist. The creator has assured us that it's not an issue. Yet here we are continuing to argue. Why?
500 reconnects should be more than enough for the typical use case. You made the assertion that it's not (for "consumer products") but you've utterly failed to back it up. Last time I checked, motherboards and hard drives were "consumer products" and the standard SATA connector has never been a problem for those devices. I know lots of people who swap hard drives on a regular basis and I've personally done it with hard drives used for enterprise disk imaging (on hundreds of desktop builds) without any problems. If you have a use case that falls outside of this range then you are using the product in ways which were not intended. That's on you. Maybe you should look elsewhere.
Good luck to you.
50 reconnects is the typical rating, but doesn't imply that the port automatically fails after 50 ... and that's taking a big stretch and assuming VE.A uses the lowest-rated (cheapest) connector. I showed you that higher-rated connectors exist. The creator has assured us that it's not an issue. Yet here we are continuing to argue. Why?
500 reconnects should be more than enough for the typical use case. You made the assertion that it's not (for "consumer products") but you've utterly failed to back it up. Last time I checked, motherboards and hard drives were "consumer products" and the standard SATA connector has never been a problem for those devices. I know lots of people who swap hard drives on a regular basis and I've personally done it with hard drives used for enterprise disk imaging (on hundreds of desktop builds) without any problems. If you have a use case that falls outside of this range then you are using the product in ways which were not intended. That's on you. Maybe you should look elsewhere.
Good luck to you.
theimmc
872
May 16, 2016
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DataIf this is used at a fixed location, I don't see any issue. But if you intend to carry it around, you'll be plugging / unplugging at least once a day, likely more. Personally I wouldn't carry this around - too expensive, too big - but I can relate with why some would want to.
Data
2004
Data
May 16, 2016
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theimmcI don't know many people who carry their $400 Korean customs back and forth to school/work, but I suppose I've seen stranger things. Again, this falls outside the intended use case. If you need to tear down your VE.A a lot I'd suggest that if you're just very careful around the SATA ports, knowing that they aren't really designed for that, you shouldn't have a problem.
rbtbl
41
May 16, 2016
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DataStill, something like eSATA would've been a better choice. I know it's mentioned in the geekhack thread, but it was dismissed for being symmetrical which is not true at all. As it stands, it's probably good for potential buyers to be aware that the connectors in this keyboard won't be as durable as those in other split keyboards.
rollyplank
30
May 16, 2016
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DataDo you unplug and plug in your hard drive twice a day?
I look around at other split boards and I see that they have solved this issue. For instance, the Infinity Ergodox uses a USB-C connector. These connectors usually have >10,000 mating cycles. SATA has a least 2 orders of magnitude less cycles and it is less dust tolerant (for those of us who commute).
That's not to say that there aren't reasons for going with a connector like SATA; for one, it discourages users from plugging into stuff that they shouldn't! Given that the average buyer of this board will probably treat it like a baby (I will), then maybe the SATA is good enough.
I look around at other split boards and I see that they have solved this issue. For instance, the Infinity Ergodox uses a USB-C connector. These connectors usually have >10,000 mating cycles. SATA has a least 2 orders of magnitude less cycles and it is less dust tolerant (for those of us who commute).
That's not to say that there aren't reasons for going with a connector like SATA; for one, it discourages users from plugging into stuff that they shouldn't! Given that the average buyer of this board will probably treat it like a baby (I will), then maybe the SATA is good enough.
KallenStadtfeld_SC
24
May 16, 2016
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rollyplank@rbtbl @rollyplank How does using this connector affect latency? I know on the Massdrop version of the Ergodox, latency between halves was something mentioned.
rbtbl
41
May 16, 2016
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KallenStadtfeld_SCThe connector has nothing to do with latency as far as I know. That all comes down to software protocol and hardware design, not connector... Unless we're talking about some wide parallel connector that bridges the whole key matrix between the two halves.
rollyplank
30
May 16, 2016
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KallenStadtfeld_SC@KallenStadtfeld_SC, Good question, I almost addressed it in my previous comment.
When we say USB-C, it refers to both a connector and a standard for how the connector is used. You could decide to ditch the standard and use the connector for something it's not meant for. For instance, you could use the "data" wires for extra power instead, but then it could blow up if the user plugs it into something with a USB-C connector that actually uses the USB-C standard.
The USB-C standard requires bundling up data before sending over the cable to be unpacked on the other side. This packing/unpacking causes some latency, but it reduces the number of wires needed to convey information and let's lots of devices talk on the same bus.
To oversimplify, The SATA standard is much more direct. It sacrifices utility in order to move data faster.
ELI5: If you're in a crowded room, you have to say someone's name before talking to them. If it's only the 2 of you, it would be a waste of time to say each other's name between every sentence!
From what I can tell, the Ergodox actually uses the USB-C connector and standard. The VE.A uses the SATA connector, but I doubt that it uses the SATA standard. My best guess is that it is just being used as a direct data bus between 2 microcontrollers using a UART. This eliminates the packing/unpacking of USB.
This is my best guess without knowing exactly how the SATA connector is wired.
When we say USB-C, it refers to both a connector and a standard for how the connector is used. You could decide to ditch the standard and use the connector for something it's not meant for. For instance, you could use the "data" wires for extra power instead, but then it could blow up if the user plugs it into something with a USB-C connector that actually uses the USB-C standard.
The USB-C standard requires bundling up data before sending over the cable to be unpacked on the other side. This packing/unpacking causes some latency, but it reduces the number of wires needed to convey information and let's lots of devices talk on the same bus.
To oversimplify, The SATA standard is much more direct. It sacrifices utility in order to move data faster.
ELI5: If you're in a crowded room, you have to say someone's name before talking to them. If it's only the 2 of you, it would be a waste of time to say each other's name between every sentence!
From what I can tell, the Ergodox actually uses the USB-C connector and standard. The VE.A uses the SATA connector, but I doubt that it uses the SATA standard. My best guess is that it is just being used as a direct data bus between 2 microcontrollers using a UART. This eliminates the packing/unpacking of USB.
This is my best guess without knowing exactly how the SATA connector is wired.
KallenStadtfeld_SC
24
May 16, 2016
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rbtblOkay thanks! It makes sense that it shouldn't but I felt it wouldn't hurt to ask since it's the first time I've seen it done this way.
KallenStadtfeld_SC
24
May 16, 2016
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rollyplankThanks for detailed explanation. I would assume that it shouldn't cause any issues then as far as latency. @rbtbl helped alleviate those concerns as well.
Makami
4237
May 17, 2016
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Hey,
aren't you supposed to rest a while, your health is worth a lot more than all mks gathered around the world!
Edit: It seems referenced post is gone.
aren't you supposed to rest a while, your health is worth a lot more than all mks gathered around the world!
Edit: It seems referenced post is gone.
Vermillion
45
Oddforge
May 17, 2016
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MakamiAh, yes, I'm on iPhone now.
I removed my post cause Data already pick it right. It uses Molex connectors.
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