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zerox4c
13
Nov 3, 2013
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Responding to AshSam's post above:
Would it not be reasonable for me to ask your company yourselves to “keep in mind we ship to many countries all over the world” and in that case make a fair effort to disclose to customers prior to their purchase that the offer you are making available internationally is not suited for customers located outside of the United States?
With regards to what is feasible (possible and practical to do easily or conveniently) I don't see how it is inconvenient to the point of impracticality when placing your order to the supplier to simply advise them of the pertinent details, for example “Dear Storz & Bickel, We have received 25x orders from the United States, 3x orders from Europe and 1x Australian order (etc) so this means we need 25x of the special US 110V version and then 4x the version that works everywhere else on the planet. Please fill this order with the appropriate units and send the items in bulk to our distribution center.”
Your website makes the claim “…and places that order directly with the manufacturer.” so I can't see any fair grounds for you to claim that the supplier is not making the European/International models of the product available to you.
If for some reason though, you really only want to make customers happy if they are American residents, why not add a simple “• suitable for 110V electrical supply only” somewhere within the description of the product? That would ensure that customers do not mistakenly form the impression that some effort will be made on behalf of your company to accommodate their international order and avoid disappointing occurrences such as this.
In the absence of such a disclaimer or option at purchase, and given that the product is indeed available in versions suitable for a 110V supply such as found in the United States and for a ~220-240V supply such as found virtually everywhere else, it would seem reasonable to believe that you will in fact accommodate your international clients with the correct device when you have provided no advice to the contrary.
Am I the first person outside of the US to place an order through your business for this or a similar electronic product?
It's not like I'm physically walking into an American retailer and demanding they sell products according to British measurements, or asking why you don't have an obscure size of battery to match a product that is only common in Timbuktu.
You are an online service, ostensibly offering the opportunity to people from all around the world to participate in group purchases in order to achieve a lower price by combining purchasing power.
“Massdrop takes a group of people that each want to buy the same thing, combines their order, and places that order directly with the manufacturer. As a result, everybody in the group gets the large quantity price while only having to buy one (or two, or ten). (Pro Tip: The bigger the group, the better price that everyone will get!)”
It definitely doesn't say everybody chips in and then majority rule applies and we'll send you what most people ordered and if that's not suitable for you well then you should have kept in mind that there are lots of countries and bad luck for you if yours is not America.
Given that you've happily offered each individual member of the group the option to purchase either the Digit or the Classic, along with either the Easy Valve kit or the Solid Valve kit, it is clear that your use of the term 'want to buy the same thing' need not be limited to 'the exact same product with the exact same options' and given you've made no mention of any limitation in this regard, wouldn't a reasonable person assume you would do the right thing with regards to shipping the US or the EU model of the product?
I don't know what the demographic breakdown of your customers are within this group purchase, but how do you think the rest of your customers would feel if you were to now advise them that you will be shipping out only the European versions of the product, and when they asked why, you responded with an “Oh you can't expect that we'll send you a product that works in your country or even advise you beforehand which version we'll be sending - that would be inconvenient for us.”
Would you expect they would find that sort of response acceptable? If not, then how do you suppose my situation is any different and why a like response will be acceptable to me?
I'm sorry to come across as hard to deal with, but I have a concern that operating the device for an extended period of time via means of a step down converter may cause the device to fail early or perform less accurately, and about how the products warranty would be affected.
I'm trying to get some information from Storz & Bickel as to how concerned I should be about that possibility, but I don't accept your response that it's inconvenient to the point of impracticality to order an EU version of the product from Storz & Bickel when you're taking orders internationally.
If somehow I have overlooked the part in the product description where adequate warning is given about the products unsuitability for operation outside of the United States, or even the use of Massdrop in general by customers outside of the United States then there will be great quantities of 'egg on my face' and you can have my retraction and apologies.
Should that not prove to be the case I would really appreciate if someone would please get in contact with me with some options on how we might remedy the situation - preferably something along the lines of:
"We're sorry we completely overlooked this aspect of our responsibility to our customers when making this offer available internationally. We agree that it is in fact practical and reasonable for us to ensure customers are happy with our service by either 1. Sending the version of the device appropriate to each country from which it was ordered 2. Allowing the customer to select the regional version of the product they want at the point of purchase or 3. Making it clear to customers that only the US version of the product is being made available as part of the group purchase. In order to rectify the situation we have contacted our supplier and arranged for an EU version of the product suitable for your use to be dispatched to our distribution centre and will ensure it is posted out to you with minimal delay".
If it is too hard or inconvenient, would you consider arranging a refund of the purchase price?
I was really happy to be a part of this group purchase and even promoted it to others. If we are unable to arrange for an 220V model as part of this group purchase - should I then start promoting a poll for interest in the Volcano from non-residents of the USA or are we just not really welcome on Massdrop?
Regards, Zero
Nov 3, 2013
Ash
405
Nov 3, 2013
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zerox4cHi Zero,
I'm not saying its impossible for us to do what you're asking, but accommodating the voltage requirements for each country is very complicated on our end in terms of planning, logistics, and handling.
For some drops, we do have options to place what kind of power adapter you need, so it's not as if it's something we've never done before. With this drop in particular, I do agree though--there should have been an indication on the voltage requirements. For that, I apologize.
-Ash
Nov 3, 2013
zerox4c
13
Nov 3, 2013
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AshI appreciate the apology. Communications mistakes can happen, especially when dealing across international borders.
I'm a little bemused that whilst admitting responsibility for not correctly communicating this limit to the offer, you're company is not offering any solution beyond my option to take it or leave it.
If you concede that it is not impossible, as you have acknowledged above then I really don't see why you wont just don't go ahead and do it.
I would have thought in the interest of providing an excellent service to your customers you might have considered inconveniencing yourselves just that little bit in order to actually rectify the situation. Recognising that there was a miscommunication at your end is a step in the right direction.
You keep making statements that imply that every single country in the world has a unique electrical system and that I am being unreasonable in my expectation that you apply expert knowledge about each country when that is simply not the case.
I doubt you're being intentionally misleading, so I feel as though you might be confusing power point socket type with electrical voltage and if that is the case then may the following information serve to illuminate and perhaps even save your company altogether from having to deal with a problem that may seem to be “very complicated on our end in terms of planning, logistics, and handling.” but in all actually - isn't.
"Dealing with electricity differences can be daunting, but it actually isn't too hard. There are only two main types of electric systems used around the world, with varying physical connections: 100-127 volt, at 60 hertz frequency (in general: North and Central Americas, Western Japan) 220-240 volt, at 50 hertz frequency (in general: the rest of the world, with some exceptions)" (The 'some exceptions' mentioned appear to be a few tropical islands.)
Source of quoted text: http://wikitravel.org/en/Electrical_systems, additional information at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_country.
So you can see how when dealing with an online store such as your own which claims to order products directly from the manufacturer (Storz & Bickel in Germany) and even goes so far as to prompt me to “keep in mind we ship to many countries all over the world” that one would expect you to be competent in this area and not fob me off what is essentially a lame excuse.
If you're able to effectively plan, arrange logistics for and handle the combined order in the correct combination of Digits vs. Classics and Easy Valves vs. Solid Valves and ship them to the respective customers located around the world you really can't expect me to accept that it would be significantly harder to the degree of being beyond your ability to manage, if one more variable (US 110V 60Hz or International 220V 50Hz) were involved with the order. As you state above, you've even done it before!
While a voltage converter can reduce our supply from 230V to 110V without difficulty, it does not change the frequency of the alternating current from 50Hz to 60Hz so I can only hope that when the item arrives and following your advice I use the product with a converter, that the products accuracy and safety of operation is not detrimentally affected.
[EDIT: Storz & Bickel have advised that this will void my warranty, I have been left with no other option than to request the cancellation of my participation in this drop and the arrangement of a refund of money paid at your end].
You've admitted the error at your end, if you're not going to rectify it there's not much I can do other than provide customer feedback as I have.
Bearing in mind that if one of your domestic customers had phoned you up and advised that you had errantly sent them a European appliance when they had the fair expectation that they would receive the American version, your company would surely be responding with a solution, not just an excuse. Upon that basis I do feel that in this case Massdrop.com has demonstrated a disregard for its international customers.
I trust that this incident will give you foresight and allow the correct steps to be taken to prevent this from recurring with another customer.
All the best for the future.
Regards, Zero
EDIT: I've received the following e-mail from info@storz-bickel.com
>Dear [my name], >Thank you for notifying us of your problem. We are sorry you are experiencing difficulties and would love to help you! >We recommend trying to cancel the order with the reseller as the voltage is not suitable for your location. >We do not recommend using the machine with a power converter as the warranty will be voided if anything ever happens to the machine using it with incorrect voltage. > You may order a machine with suitable voltage and an adapter for Australia (will be added to your shipment depending on the delivery address) plus free shipping to Australia at www.storz-bickel.com >[etc]
So yeah, it's obviously so infeasible. I suspect that you might not really be dealing with the manufacturers like you claim to be. There really isn't any excuse for not honouring the offer we agreed on.
As such, I now have no other option than to request that you PLEASE CANCEL THE ORDER and arrange a refund. I have sent confirmation of this request via e-mail. I am incredibly disappointed that your company was not interested in rectifying its mistake and presented me the only with the option only to take or leave the offer for an inappropriate device.
Regards, Zero
Nov 3, 2013
runean
Nov 4, 2013
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zerox4cWonderful. I was planning on getting a dedicated US-AUS style adapter, but that's a good point on the frequency, Massdrop, this is poor play. You do make it very clear that you're internationally inclined, and already offer extensive options as Zero mentioned for Easy/Solid/Classic/Digital; it seems absurd that you couldn't bundle a well suited adapter (especially considering this is one of your more expensive drops, if you've included it in cheaper ones) or at the very least WARN ALL NON US CUSTOMERS THEY WILL INSTANTLY VOID THEIR ADVERTISED WARRANTY. From what I understand I have no choice in this matter, there is nothing I can do or buy, even at my own expense, that will protect my device and warranty?
Well, I guess saving a hundred dollars is worth forfeiting your warranty, hey?
I understand you simply sell the product, but I feel in the dark. Tracking numbers would be wonderful too (:
Nov 4, 2013
zerox4c
13
Nov 5, 2013
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runeanI've ended up biting the bullet and paying the extra few hundred dollars to purchase the product from a local supplier.
They supply the device in the appropriate voltage and adapter to fit our power points and confirmed that they are an authorised reseller so my warranty will be valid. It's apparently going to be here in the next couple of days which is a bonus after this headache.
I'm not sure how much of an impact the 50Hz or 60Hz would really make, I've read that especially the Classic model is designed to be fairly simple and robust in terms of its electronic components (don't take this advice as a recommendation to use it on the wrong type of power supply however, I'm only a layman). The Digit which I had ordered is more sophisticated in order to allow for the accurate temperature selection which was important to me so I didn't want to chance it by introducing compromising factors.
They're fair to not offer to cover repairs that are required due to using the device on an incorrect voltage under warranty. You might still be able to get the repair done outside of warranty and just pay for the replacement labour and parts. I'm unsure. The idea to me is that I hope to not have to send the device in for repairs at all as the only authorised repairer of the device are the manufacturers themselves in Germany.
I did some research and found that the frequency of alternating current can be used in relation to timing circuitry. If you've got the right voltage going through the device by means of your converter it _might_ just mean that the three minute automatic shut off takes 16% less time to kick in. If that were the only impact you could be laughing really.
On the other side of things, how much do you want to trust a $25 adapter to protect your $500+ appliance? That's all that is going to be on the wire between the device and more than double its recommended voltage. Even then, the 50Hz to 60Hz difference will remain and may or may not cause problems.
Due to this concern, I probably would have ended up buying a high end converter which could end up costing me close to as much as it would have cost to simply purchase the correct device in the first place.
Given the way my concerns were dealt with, I had the impression that I was the only international customer and logged in to remove my posts on the subject, but I see that I was not the only non US resident who was under the impression that the company was open for business internationally and had its act together.
If you do receive the device from Massdrop, I hope my concerns and reservations prove to be exaggerated. Otherwise speak to Ash (poor bugger has had to read all of my essays on the topic already and is aware of the situation) and see what he can do for you.
All the best, Zero
Nov 5, 2013
Ash
405
Nov 7, 2013
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runeanWe'd love to give you guys as many options as we can. We're not exactly in a position where we can dictate to our vendors what we need and when we need it; we have to strike deals with them and hopefully everyone follows through on the gentleman's agreement.
For this particular drop, we were only able to get the US-based adapter. I honestly wish that was made more clear to you guys. Once again, I apologize for that.
Nov 7, 2013
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