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Seelen
323
Sep 2, 2016
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gravi_t
39
Sep 4, 2016
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SeelenTactical pens are recommended if you work at or frequently visit places where you are not allowed to take cutting tools or weapons, but you still want to have some sort of self defense tool. Or if you're not comfortable walking around with knives. Or you want to have a conversation starter for those boring meetings.
Seelen
323
Sep 5, 2016
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gravi_tWell, sure, though at that point you're pretty much saying, "so that I can carry a weapon where people aren't supposed to carry weapons", and at that point doesn't that become part of the problem? Having a weapon in a place like that means that if a person uses it in the wrong situation, they become the "bad guy" or whatever.
If it's a place where you can't carry a weapon, it means somebody didn't want you to have one for a very good reason...don't like it, don't go there.
It's not the "oh it's just something silly and cool to have" people I care about...think about the flip side of things, a product like this enables people to sneak weapons into all sorts of places. I mean a lot of the people buying a thing like this are going to be paranoid gun nuts, mall ninjas, or people who might wish actual harm to somebody in a place where it's supposed to be difficult to do so.
Im just saying, the legitimate uses for this thing are really on the low end of the spectrum. Its like when people market a knife as being good for "stabbing", the mall ninjas and people intent on doing harm are really going to be the main groups interested.
If it's a place where you can't carry a weapon, it means somebody didn't want you to have one for a very good reason...don't like it, don't go there.
It's not the "oh it's just something silly and cool to have" people I care about...think about the flip side of things, a product like this enables people to sneak weapons into all sorts of places. I mean a lot of the people buying a thing like this are going to be paranoid gun nuts, mall ninjas, or people who might wish actual harm to somebody in a place where it's supposed to be difficult to do so.
Im just saying, the legitimate uses for this thing are really on the low end of the spectrum. Its like when people market a knife as being good for "stabbing", the mall ninjas and people intent on doing harm are really going to be the main groups interested.
Seelen
323
Sep 5, 2016
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SeeTOPhI agree with you here. It's not the object I disagree with, I'm only here to warn against falling into that sentiment. I don't want to get too off topic, just wanted to voice my opinion on objects like this that start to straddle that line. If we are going to have community chosen products that can be used for many purposes, then I do feel it's our responsibility to choose objects that we feel in good faith will not be misused.
I'm not just crusading here, though I am sort of playing devil's advocate a bit (in part because this is a horrible design for a pen OR for a weapon haha); mass drop sells lockpicking sets, and I'm fully confident that the people buying them here are just screwing around or using them as tools without malicious intent...I guess I'm just saying, in principle, the less legitimate uses a misusable object has, the more potentiallly harmful or dangerous it could become to our community.
So anyways, I don't feel like this is anything terrible, just that, unlike other novelties, when a weapon approaches uselessness for legitimate purposes, but serves to highly camouflage it's dangerous function, the line gets a little muddled.
Just for extra shits and giggles, can you imagine if this thing made the local news or god forbid there was a crime committed with it? They'd be comparing it with box cutters pretty quickly...
I'm not just crusading here, though I am sort of playing devil's advocate a bit (in part because this is a horrible design for a pen OR for a weapon haha); mass drop sells lockpicking sets, and I'm fully confident that the people buying them here are just screwing around or using them as tools without malicious intent...I guess I'm just saying, in principle, the less legitimate uses a misusable object has, the more potentiallly harmful or dangerous it could become to our community.
So anyways, I don't feel like this is anything terrible, just that, unlike other novelties, when a weapon approaches uselessness for legitimate purposes, but serves to highly camouflage it's dangerous function, the line gets a little muddled.
Just for extra shits and giggles, can you imagine if this thing made the local news or god forbid there was a crime committed with it? They'd be comparing it with box cutters pretty quickly...
SeeTOPh
9
Sep 5, 2016
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Seeleni can see where youre coming from but its lack of a sharp edge i feel keeps it pretty safe. when you say a crime committed with it, what kind of crime are you thinking? and be realistic about it, not some crazy what if. and im not being rude to you, sorry if im coming off that. like you im really just playing the other side here for the sake of discussion. I think its an average pen in design, not great but not terrible. very few of these "Tactical pens" look very good. its like tactical backpacks, they only look good because theyre ultra functional. and some guys out there love to act and show off like theyre badasses when really theyre just idiots, but they do spend a lot of money
Seelen
323
Sep 5, 2016
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SeeTOPhNo, you're not rude. I really don't disagree when it comes to this actual drop; I just think many of this company's offerings bring up the darker side of EDC. I mean the 606 is being talked about as having extra material in the tip for "thrusting", it's basically a knife designed for stabbing. Do I think somebody is spending $300+ so they can commit a crime? No (at least not with intent). Again, partly I'm against the mall ninjas who ruin things for the rest of us...I understand they generate sales and are important, at least until the general population starts to care more about quality in most of their purchases (never? Lol).
Mostly though, it's just the attitude that going down this path can produce. In some ways it's hard to explain...it's not like HIDE YO KIDS danger...I believe the alarmists about this stuff are just as bad as the mall ninjas...I just think it's important to have this discussion sometimes with EDC; its the same discussion responsible firearm owners sometimes need to have. It's just the nature of the hobby, our hobby runs 1000x closer to negative things than say, quilting, so we at least need to acknowledge it's existence and do what we can to avoid that path.
I guess I just mean we don't want to glorify the whole YOU NEVER KNOW WHEN YOURE GONNA GET SHANKED thing, or the "oh it's a great thrusting knife" comments as if they are innocent. Overall I'm not freaked out or upset, I just think we in our hobby have a constant choice whether to go down that path, and we have to consistently choose not to, and not to ignore it. Hope that makes sense, it's not that I think people are actually buying these for crimes.
Edit: as far as a crime committed, this definitely seems like the kind of thing that would end up in a high school fight where some kid ends up taking one to the arm or something haha (okay, it's not funny, but, it is). You are definitely right, it is funny to me mostly because it's ridiculous, but it's the kind of thing a school kid would find cool and carry. I could picture some local news finding out and freaking, "You'll never guess what can be used as a WEAPON around your children EVERY DAY" lolol
Mostly though, it's just the attitude that going down this path can produce. In some ways it's hard to explain...it's not like HIDE YO KIDS danger...I believe the alarmists about this stuff are just as bad as the mall ninjas...I just think it's important to have this discussion sometimes with EDC; its the same discussion responsible firearm owners sometimes need to have. It's just the nature of the hobby, our hobby runs 1000x closer to negative things than say, quilting, so we at least need to acknowledge it's existence and do what we can to avoid that path.
I guess I just mean we don't want to glorify the whole YOU NEVER KNOW WHEN YOURE GONNA GET SHANKED thing, or the "oh it's a great thrusting knife" comments as if they are innocent. Overall I'm not freaked out or upset, I just think we in our hobby have a constant choice whether to go down that path, and we have to consistently choose not to, and not to ignore it. Hope that makes sense, it's not that I think people are actually buying these for crimes.
Edit: as far as a crime committed, this definitely seems like the kind of thing that would end up in a high school fight where some kid ends up taking one to the arm or something haha (okay, it's not funny, but, it is). You are definitely right, it is funny to me mostly because it's ridiculous, but it's the kind of thing a school kid would find cool and carry. I could picture some local news finding out and freaking, "You'll never guess what can be used as a WEAPON around your children EVERY DAY" lolol
SeeTOPh
9
Sep 7, 2016
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Seelenim gonna write more later, cause i agree 110% with apart of what i think youre saying. this "youre always in danger and always need to be prepared for it" sentiment thats going around our culture is freaking insane. so much of whats sold nowadays is based on peoples fears. and IRRATIONAL fears, fears of things where the odds of them happening is darn near winning the lottery
Data
2004
Data
Sep 7, 2016
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SeeTOPhPreparedness is not fear. You're picking on the wrong motivating factors. It's true that some companies and organizations (which shall remain nameless) are pushing a lot of fear behind their products/ideals and it's shameful. But culturally, it's up to each individual to do a personal, objective evaluation of any given threat and determine if it's significant in his/her specific case. Guys in Montana probably don't have to worry much about hurricane preparedness. Rural farmland homeowners probably don't have to worry much about inner-city gang violence. It can be difficult because there are a lot of different "threats" to evaluate these days, but the information is out there if you need it.
Statistics are part of the equation but they are not the whole equation. Gang violence still rarely erupts in Smalltown USA. Montana has bad weather too... And these things can have a cost in terms of human life. Preparedness is about arming yourself with the tools and knowledge to say, "It won't be me," or, "I'm as ready as I can reasonably be for that." It's about refusing to be that statistic, and effectively improving the statistics for everyone. Rarity alone does not somehow shield you from random danger, nor is preparedness any sort of guarantee.
I don't expect to ever need to fight someone with a pen. And let's be frank, very few people on this site know the first thing about fighting with a pen. It's not even called a Fighting Pen. It's just a cool pen made from a premium metal and it happens to have a few secondary uses "just in case". That's why this is an attractive product for some people. Don't try to read into it any further than that.
Statistics are part of the equation but they are not the whole equation. Gang violence still rarely erupts in Smalltown USA. Montana has bad weather too... And these things can have a cost in terms of human life. Preparedness is about arming yourself with the tools and knowledge to say, "It won't be me," or, "I'm as ready as I can reasonably be for that." It's about refusing to be that statistic, and effectively improving the statistics for everyone. Rarity alone does not somehow shield you from random danger, nor is preparedness any sort of guarantee.
I don't expect to ever need to fight someone with a pen. And let's be frank, very few people on this site know the first thing about fighting with a pen. It's not even called a Fighting Pen. It's just a cool pen made from a premium metal and it happens to have a few secondary uses "just in case". That's why this is an attractive product for some people. Don't try to read into it any further than that.
Seelen
323
Sep 7, 2016
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DataUnfortunately, I have to read further into it than that, because I know people first-hand who actually say things like, "I have to carry my firearm with me every single day in case I am backed into a corner and need to defend myself". The guy takes martial arts, carries weapons, practices WEEKLY home invasion drills...being prepared is definitely understandable and a fantastic thing, but that's overkill.
By the way, when I speak, I do so as somebody who grew up in a very rich neighborhood, but who spent a couple years living in an area with a murder a month within a mile, an area bad enough that driving down my street at night, you would see teenagers with no shirt on and guns tucked into the back of their jeans walking down the middle of the street like they owned it (because, well, THEY DID) so I do know about legitimate threats, and I do know that there are many many places where those threats are negligible.
I tried to tell one friend...if you honestly think you're going ti that area of town, sure whatever, wear protection and hope for the best, but if you're picking up bread 3 minutes away, no.
Here's my biggest issue with the "preparedness" NUTS. It changes the way you think, the way you perceive the world. That one friend carries everywhere, and he talks about "neutralizing threats", about "being backed into a corner", about how "you never know who could come after you, it could be ANYBODY".
You can't honestly tell me that companies and online forums aren't playing on his insecurities, can you? I mean, nothing is more comforting to a man than being told he is right.
EDIT: I do want to be clear that, again, I am moderate here, and I am not taking any side; I think some of this shit is just cool, some of it is useful, and the rest people should have the right to own...but that doesn't mean we have to encourage ownership of preparedness products for people who aren't simply trying to be prepared. You kind of hit on my point about preparedness, the closer to get into preparedness territory, the more useful an object must be for it to not (unintentionally or otherwise) prey on the weak and insecure subgroup.
By the way, when I speak, I do so as somebody who grew up in a very rich neighborhood, but who spent a couple years living in an area with a murder a month within a mile, an area bad enough that driving down my street at night, you would see teenagers with no shirt on and guns tucked into the back of their jeans walking down the middle of the street like they owned it (because, well, THEY DID) so I do know about legitimate threats, and I do know that there are many many places where those threats are negligible.
I tried to tell one friend...if you honestly think you're going ti that area of town, sure whatever, wear protection and hope for the best, but if you're picking up bread 3 minutes away, no.
Here's my biggest issue with the "preparedness" NUTS. It changes the way you think, the way you perceive the world. That one friend carries everywhere, and he talks about "neutralizing threats", about "being backed into a corner", about how "you never know who could come after you, it could be ANYBODY".
You can't honestly tell me that companies and online forums aren't playing on his insecurities, can you? I mean, nothing is more comforting to a man than being told he is right.
EDIT: I do want to be clear that, again, I am moderate here, and I am not taking any side; I think some of this shit is just cool, some of it is useful, and the rest people should have the right to own...but that doesn't mean we have to encourage ownership of preparedness products for people who aren't simply trying to be prepared. You kind of hit on my point about preparedness, the closer to get into preparedness territory, the more useful an object must be for it to not (unintentionally or otherwise) prey on the weak and insecure subgroup.
Data
2004
Data
Sep 7, 2016
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SeelenYour friend sounds like the classic Mall Ninja. You don't appear to take him seriously and that's good. Few people would, even within the prepping/EDC communities.
What can I say, other than some people are more susceptible to marketing than others? So it goes with any market segment.
What can I say, other than some people are more susceptible to marketing than others? So it goes with any market segment.
Seelen
323
Sep 7, 2016
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DataYep, pretty much...like I said, I don't think we should stop selling things that fall into both categories, just that, there are a multitude of products out there, so we do have to be careful to vote on ones that fall less into mall ninja and more into preparedness.
I don't even care that people want to be stupid mall ninjas, honestly...but it's the way they view the world that becomes a problem, and to a lesser extent, it bleeds through to the rest of us.
Countless studies have shown that those who carry begin to distrust and become more suspicious; we just have to be very mindful of these things, because if we aren't, they WILL happen to us or to those we know.
Sorry for going so off topic, one just sort of led to another and I've had it on my mind for a while. Thanks for actually reading what I had to say everybody, whether you agree with it or not. I'm not used to people being respectful when their opinion differs from my own :p
I don't even care that people want to be stupid mall ninjas, honestly...but it's the way they view the world that becomes a problem, and to a lesser extent, it bleeds through to the rest of us.
Countless studies have shown that those who carry begin to distrust and become more suspicious; we just have to be very mindful of these things, because if we aren't, they WILL happen to us or to those we know.
Sorry for going so off topic, one just sort of led to another and I've had it on my mind for a while. Thanks for actually reading what I had to say everybody, whether you agree with it or not. I'm not used to people being respectful when their opinion differs from my own :p
SeeTOPh
9
Sep 7, 2016
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Dataso i proofed this and man i went on some tangents and i dont know how relevant what ive written actually is to this conversation or this discussion but ive already typed it all so ill just leave it. sorry for the typos, grammar, and overall boring nature.
i agree with you that this item is definitely a "just in case" ill add to that: "just in case, but probably wont..."
its just that i read/hear so much out there from people who talk about NEEDING "backup knives" and "backup guns" and 99% are NOT first responders or military or security people. I agree that you never want to be a statistic but theres too many people in my opinion that go overboard with that and far too many people and companies that dont just profit from it but also incite it.
I can honestly say that I have lived in and put myself in situations that are more dangerous than the vast majority of people will ever have to deal with and Ive learned a few things from that. I would say the biggest one is that it is incredibly difficult to prevent the unexpected, and the idiom "expect the unexpected" is literally impossible and essentially paralyzing if you truly follow it. Example: as a medical student doing my emergency medicine rotation i was tasked with disrobing the transients and drunks who came in, as students we obviously got all the $h!+ jobs. Well a homeless man who had urinated and vomited on himself needed treatment, so i went to take his clothes off. I told him "Sir, im about to take your pants off". He was essentially out on his feet, my words were a formality, or so i thought. i crouch down to unbutton his jeans and like a freakin ninja, in one deft motion, this guy reaches over to the instrument tray, grabs a pair of scissors, and plants them squarely in my back, between shoulders and a couple inches off midline. Long story short, i ended up being fine as it did penetrate about 2/3" but missed my lung, which is possible posteriorly.
Earlier in my life, before med school I had a bit of a substance abuse problem and in procuring my DOC I would make daily trips to neighborhoods and inside houses with multiple firearms, both assault type and handguns, but never once was there ever a problem. By avoiding people with reputations for violence and situations that were overtly unsafe (that term is relative because none of what i was doing was safe by any means) i was able to make it thru that dark period of my life essentially unscathed.
Now we all come at situations from our past experiences and thru our own subjective perspectives and I will admit that as a 6'6" 30-something who played college football my sense of security, things i find threatening, and issues i face are vastly different than a 5'2" 105lb woman but I have learned that carrying things for protection can actually be detrimental because they provide a false sense of security to most who fail to pay proper attention to their surroundings as many feel a gun or a knife is some sort of bubble of safety. Could I of avoided getting stabbed? yes, by not allowing anything stabbable to be within reach, its hard to think like that all the time though. But no matter what i was carrying could of prevented that. And during my forays into the "drug world" i carried a knife on me (i didnt want to carry a gun because if i was arrested or detained my problems would be significantly magnified with a firearm involved). But it wasnt the knife that kept me safe, it was my "wits" i guess you could call it, or just my overall ability to read people and read situations. oh, and i know using the term "wits" is oxymoronic there as its pretty dimwitted to of been there in the first place. but like i said, its all relative.
Thats my major point here, you cant buy safety. Nothing you carry will make you safe because the majority of bad things that happen do so because you are either unaware of they are impossible to avoid or predict. But the biggest thing you can do for your own safety is by being observant. that doesnt mean you have to constantly be scanning the horizon for dangers ahead, but just be aware and know what to look for. the good thing about that is it can become second nature and you dont even have to try after a while, it ends up being easy and effortless. but just dont put your trust or your faith in a bullet or blade (or in this case a pen) cause 99% of times they aint gonna stop whats coming. i would know, i got stabbed by a hobo, haha....
alright, i totally went on a rant there, but this is a good discussion and ill repeat seelen that its nice to be able to do so without anyone being a jerk. touche to everyone for being cool
i agree with you that this item is definitely a "just in case" ill add to that: "just in case, but probably wont..."
its just that i read/hear so much out there from people who talk about NEEDING "backup knives" and "backup guns" and 99% are NOT first responders or military or security people. I agree that you never want to be a statistic but theres too many people in my opinion that go overboard with that and far too many people and companies that dont just profit from it but also incite it.
I can honestly say that I have lived in and put myself in situations that are more dangerous than the vast majority of people will ever have to deal with and Ive learned a few things from that. I would say the biggest one is that it is incredibly difficult to prevent the unexpected, and the idiom "expect the unexpected" is literally impossible and essentially paralyzing if you truly follow it. Example: as a medical student doing my emergency medicine rotation i was tasked with disrobing the transients and drunks who came in, as students we obviously got all the $h!+ jobs. Well a homeless man who had urinated and vomited on himself needed treatment, so i went to take his clothes off. I told him "Sir, im about to take your pants off". He was essentially out on his feet, my words were a formality, or so i thought. i crouch down to unbutton his jeans and like a freakin ninja, in one deft motion, this guy reaches over to the instrument tray, grabs a pair of scissors, and plants them squarely in my back, between shoulders and a couple inches off midline. Long story short, i ended up being fine as it did penetrate about 2/3" but missed my lung, which is possible posteriorly.
Earlier in my life, before med school I had a bit of a substance abuse problem and in procuring my DOC I would make daily trips to neighborhoods and inside houses with multiple firearms, both assault type and handguns, but never once was there ever a problem. By avoiding people with reputations for violence and situations that were overtly unsafe (that term is relative because none of what i was doing was safe by any means) i was able to make it thru that dark period of my life essentially unscathed.
Now we all come at situations from our past experiences and thru our own subjective perspectives and I will admit that as a 6'6" 30-something who played college football my sense of security, things i find threatening, and issues i face are vastly different than a 5'2" 105lb woman but I have learned that carrying things for protection can actually be detrimental because they provide a false sense of security to most who fail to pay proper attention to their surroundings as many feel a gun or a knife is some sort of bubble of safety. Could I of avoided getting stabbed? yes, by not allowing anything stabbable to be within reach, its hard to think like that all the time though. But no matter what i was carrying could of prevented that. And during my forays into the "drug world" i carried a knife on me (i didnt want to carry a gun because if i was arrested or detained my problems would be significantly magnified with a firearm involved). But it wasnt the knife that kept me safe, it was my "wits" i guess you could call it, or just my overall ability to read people and read situations. oh, and i know using the term "wits" is oxymoronic there as its pretty dimwitted to of been there in the first place. but like i said, its all relative.
Thats my major point here, you cant buy safety. Nothing you carry will make you safe because the majority of bad things that happen do so because you are either unaware of they are impossible to avoid or predict. But the biggest thing you can do for your own safety is by being observant. that doesnt mean you have to constantly be scanning the horizon for dangers ahead, but just be aware and know what to look for. the good thing about that is it can become second nature and you dont even have to try after a while, it ends up being easy and effortless. but just dont put your trust or your faith in a bullet or blade (or in this case a pen) cause 99% of times they aint gonna stop whats coming. i would know, i got stabbed by a hobo, haha....
alright, i totally went on a rant there, but this is a good discussion and ill repeat seelen that its nice to be able to do so without anyone being a jerk. touche to everyone for being cool
Data
2004
Data
Sep 7, 2016
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SeeTOPhWithout exception, the first and most important tool in any "situation" is your brain. Your wits and awareness (and gut) will keep you away from danger and, failing that, get you out of danger better than any tool. The tool just adds leverage.
Some people feel they need more leverage than others. ;) And any tool without the proper training and experience can be more harmful than helpful.
I can't really comment on your past experiences but thanks for sharing them. You guys should consider starting a thread in the EDC discussion if you want to continue this thread. We've gone way beyond any relevance to this specific drop.
Some people feel they need more leverage than others. ;) And any tool without the proper training and experience can be more harmful than helpful.
I can't really comment on your past experiences but thanks for sharing them. You guys should consider starting a thread in the EDC discussion if you want to continue this thread. We've gone way beyond any relevance to this specific drop.
Redkid
48
Sep 8, 2016
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SeeTOPhOriginally a mall ninja is a mall security guard that carries tactical military gear and preparedness equipment while patrolling the mall. He often trains using military drills and uses military lingo at all times.
The term has however evolved to mean anyone with similar military "over-interest".
The term has however evolved to mean anyone with similar military "over-interest".
Tugboat801
2
Sep 11, 2016
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RedkidNot to completely dumb down this feed but some of us bought this pen because it looks beautifully machined and will be fun in the pocket. I love well made knives and well made, detailed things in general. To me, the "tactical" label also speaks to quality, detail and craftsmanship.
Redkid
48
Sep 11, 2016
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Tugboat801I don't know why you replied to me, I was only answering the question of what a mall ninja was.
Personally the "tactical" label means nothing to me, because it is applied to both crap and great. I'm sure this is a great tactical pen, however I don't see a use for it, for me or anyone else. Maybe collecting fine items?
Personally the "tactical" label means nothing to me, because it is applied to both crap and great. I'm sure this is a great tactical pen, however I don't see a use for it, for me or anyone else. Maybe collecting fine items?
Tugboat801
2
Sep 11, 2016
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RedkidSorry. Didn't mean to reply jut to you. Just weighing in.
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Pretty much anybody I can think of that would ever buy this already has a glass breaker in their car (and probably another on their EDC knife in their pocket, too)