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MasterRo
86
Mar 29, 2017
When selecting down sleeping bags and quilts, it is wise to consider the materials and how it is used within what system it is used in. The colder the temperatures and the more humidity in the environment, the more likely there will be condensations challenges within the quilt/bag. The accumulation of moisture in a down bag equates to greater drying times or a loss of loft and thus a loss of heat retention. For these times, it is wise to have a shell fabric that is more air permeable with a good DWR. For reference: https://hikelighter.com/2015/02/18/wind-jackets-montbell-tachyon-patagonia-houdini-zpacks-wind-shell/: https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/100458/ .53 CFM — ZPacks Pertex GL .53 CFM — ZPacks Ventrum ( ZPacks claims it is equivalent to the Pertex GL) Joe V at Zpacks reports Ventrum was tested at 6.63 CFM with a HH of 281 mm. Here are the details for UL Argon not be confused with the sil treated Argon. 40.1 CFM - Argon 90 48.9 CFM - Argon 67 Considering that the most air permeable true rain garment is .5 CFM (Neoshell Membrane)... As a rule, the greater the CFM, the less moisture will accumulate in the down for conditions that are ripe for condensation (cold and foggy). Moisture accumulation in insulation, is more common, the colder the air temperature. Researching dew point may be helpful when selecting a quilt/bag as it relates to the materials and their characteristics .
Stepbystep
549
Mar 31, 2017
MasterRoAnd this may be even more of a factor in a unique design such as the Zpacks here which uses impermeable cuben fiber for the baffles rather than light fabric or mesh as all others do. Could be a benefit in some circumstances and a hindrance in others, in regard to moisture management.
MasterRo
86
Mar 31, 2017
StepbystepYou are right about that. The good news though, is that Cuben acts like it has an emissivity rating that must be closer to that of Mylar. This will impact its condensation potential.
ccchans
20
Apr 4, 2017
MasterRoLet me see if I'm understanding this correctly. These quilts are made out of Ventrum, and Ventrum has a 0.53 CFM. Argon 90 has 40.1 CFM. Since Argon has a higher CFM, it is a better fabric at managing moisture. If I were to buy this bag from ZPacks, it will accumulate a lot of moisture due to very low CFM.
MasterRo
86
Apr 4, 2017
ccchansYou have the right idea although I can not say that Ventrum would accumulate a lot more moisture as there are other variables. The higher the CFM for these types of fabrics, the higher the rate of vapor transfer. Keep in mind these numbers are relative and that there are other variables like relative humidity and dew point. According to Joe V at Zpacks, the CFM was tested at over 6 CFM so there is a bit of discrepancy in the reported air permeability. When choosing a sleeping bag or bivy, the more you understand the environmental challenges of the trip and your shelter, the better chances you have of minimizing moisture accumulation over time. With down, you are always wise to place your down garment in the sun to allow any accumulated moisture to evaporate. I am guessing that Ventrum would be best suited for lower humidity environment and temperatures above 20 oF. Always strive to maximize air flow in your shelter, this will help a lot with moisture management. Not to confuse matters but, I have had zero air permeability fabrics but with high "breathability" (MVTR) and these bags failed miserably in terms of moisture management, in damp and cold environments. These types of materials move moisture based on a pressure differential and that pressure differential depends in part on the temperature on both sides of membrane. That is all well and good but if you have more insulation, that pressure differential will be less and thus you have a recipe for moisture accumulation.
Joomy
212
Oct 7, 2017
MasterRoOK, quite a bit of confusion going around here as usual.
First, it's Ventum not "Ventrum".
Second, Richard Nisley tested Ventum at 6.6 CFM: https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/100720/#post-3495273. His measurements are usually taken to be reliable so I'm not sure where the confusion is coming from? Is there some other claimed measured CFM for this fabric?
Third, non-air-permeable membranes do *not* rely on pressure differentials. If there were a pressure differential your jacket or sleeping bag would puff up around you like a balloon. They rely on humidity differential. If it's humid outside your jacket/bag then they will work less well than if it's very dry outside.
Finally, since air-permeable fabrics rely on air-movement if you are inside a relatively still tent the fact that they are air-permeable is not going to matter much. Most of the moisture exchange is going to be due to the humidity differential.
People have long used bivy bags and sleeping bags shells made out of eVent and similar fabrics with FAR lower air-permeability than Ventum. Western Mountaineering use Windstopper on their higher-end sleeping bags which is not at all air-permeable. There is no reason to think that you need a high air-permeability fabric on a sleeping bag in most situations.
Of course more breathability is nice but if the climate is already very humid then no fabric is going to "breathe" very well, since there is nowhere for the excess moisture in your bag to go. If the climate is fairly dry (or even moderately dry) then all fabrics will breathe better and anything with higher breathability than Gore-Tex is going to be just fine. This is of course conditional on you being able to regulate your temperature reasonably well. If you are really overheating nothing will prevent from waking up soaked in sweat. Also, more breathability means less water-resistance.